Pai Gow Poker questions
Quote:Commission Free Pai Gow Poker
Often in Washington State the casino will not charge the 5% commission on banker wins. They make a profit on the banker's advantage and side bets only. With no commission, the banker has a 1.30% advantage, and all others playing against the banker a 1.30% disadvantage.
If I'm reading this right, it essentially means that instead of the 2.73% edge you would normally be going against, the house edge is only 1.30% under these circumstances. Is that correct? (Assuming no player banking.)
I'm still wrapping my head around all the numbers on that page, which are kind of confusing. I have a question about the banking numbers too, which I'll add on here in a bit.
Lastly, let me just say that I think PGP is an incredibly boring game, especially if you're not playing any of the side bets. Also the terminology of the 2 hands is confusing. Why is the 2-card hard referred to as "up top" and also as the "low" hand? I understand that it's above the 5-card hand on the layout, but why couldn't they have put the 5-card spot on top, and then the "high" hand could also be the hand "up top?" In addition to that, you have the "front hand" and "back hand" nomenclature as well. I found it really confusing.
point #2: Banking is a world unto itself. Most Houses these days refrain from alternate banking, and cause once around the table to be the normal. Tuff to get that edge.
point #3: Its a bit boring, but how well can you split tricky hands like Joker hand Straights that are also flushes, Full Houses with a low pair like 22 or 33 but you have A-Q also, or a pair of Q's that also a straight with an Ace (or Joker), or a hand that is A-A-A-Joker. Sometimes there is a bit of thought to the game unlike Baccarat, which really is like watching paint dry. By the way, if you had A-K-Q-J- 7-5-2 no straight/noflush garbage how would you play this hand? with a big bet?
point #4: The 2-card gets placed "up-top" to be tested first because its the weak-hand (small or low hand) and more likely to cause a tie. Pairs in the 2-card hand just smell like a Win.
Washington state has some good gaming rules... enjoy them!
Quote: AcesAndEights
Lastly, let me just say that I think PGP is an incredibly boring game, especially if you're not playing any of the side bets. Also the terminology of the 2 hands is confusing. Why is the 2-card hard referred to as "up top" and also as the "low" hand? I understand that it's above the 5-card hand on the layout, but why couldn't they have put the 5-card spot on top, and then the "high" hand could also be the hand "up top?" In addition to that, you have the "front hand" and "back hand" nomenclature as well. I found it really confusing.
Speculating on terminology:
"high" and "low" hand refers (I believe) to your 5 card hand must be better than your 2 card hand when you set it. People just starting to play always come to the point of wishing they could just put the better pair "up top" and push, which would foul the hand. "up top" definitely refers to where the 2 card hand goes physically on the layout, with reference to the player. "front" and "back" also refers to where the cards sit, with "front" towards the dealer and "back" towards the player; think that's a dealer reference I've heard out west but not in the south or east.
Everywhere I've played, the dealer is always allowed to advise you on how the house would play the hand, and help you further if you want them to. To me, there's almost no point in playing without the Fortune sidebet, but I think the game was boring because you were frustrated with it on first acquaintence. It's got some nice nuances and wears very well; you might give it another try and like it better when you're not trying to sort the table etiquette. Certainly, if you're going to play it anywhere, really nice for it to be available without the commission.
Quote: beachbumbabsEverywhere I've played, the dealer is always allowed to advise you on how the house would play the hand, and help you further if you want them to. To me, there's almost no point in playing without the Fortune sidebet, but I think the game was boring because you were frustrated with it on first acquaintence. It's got some nice nuances and wears very well; you might give it another try and like it better when you're not trying to sort the table etiquette. Certainly, if you're going to play it anywhere, really nice for it to be available without the commission.
I might try it again. There were no fewer than 4 side bets at the table I was at, so I'll need to sort out if any of them have a non-offensive house edge.
So if vanilla no-commission PGP still has an edge for the house, then Dan must have come up with EZ Pai Gow just to keep a similar house edge without the commission? I always just figured that without a commission, it would be a breakeven game. I see now that the dealer winning ties provides the house edge even without the commission.
Next question: what hand is a "Pai Gow?" I kept hearing people say that, but I can't seem to find it on the Intertubes.
Quote: AcesAndEightswhat hand is a "Pai Gow?" I kept hearing people say that, but I can't seem to find it on the Intertubes.
"Pai Gow" really means "make nine" but the ploppies have redefined it as a 7-card hand which can't even make a pair, such as KQ97632 spanning four suits.
Quote: JB"Pai Gow" really means "make nine" but the ploppies have redefined it as a 7-card hand which can't even make a pair, such as KQ97632 spanning four suits.
That's hilarious, so the worst hand that it is possible to get dealt in the game, is named after the game? WTF?
That being said, more questions!
I'm reading the Trump Plaza house way, since it seems to be the benchmark. There are a few places where the house way doesn't seem clear. For example, under the section on splitting 2 pairs, it doesn't necessarily say how to split the pairs when that is the mandated decision. I'm assuming you always put the higher pair in the 2-card hand, but especially for n00bs like me, it seems like that should be spelled out :).
Actually, same problem with the Wiz's 2-pair rule.
Why is the Trump Plaza's house way the "benchmark"? Just curious. I've inquired at one of my local card room chains to see if they will send me a copy of their house way.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThat's hilarious, so the worst hand that it is possible to get dealt in the game, is named after the game? WTF?
Well in "real" Pai Gow (tiles), the scoring system is similar to baccarat where the goal is to make the highest total possible, and the highest is nine.
Quote: AcesAndEightsFor example, under the section on splitting 2 pairs, it doesn't necessarily say how to split the pairs when that is the mandated decision. I'm assuming you always put the higher pair in the 2-card hand, but especially for n00bs like me, it seems like that should be spelled out :).
There is only one way. The low pair must go in the low hand (the two card hand) as the high hand must always outrank it. If you switch it, your hand is fouled and you automatically lose (unless you have a nice Floor who will let you reset it).
Quote: AcesAndEightsI wanted to thank all the generous members of the forum for indulging me. When these kinds of basic questions come up about blackjack or craps, I tend to sit on the sideline and let other folks answer them. So, by all karmic rights, no one should have answered me :p.
That being said, more questions!
I'm reading the Trump Plaza house way, since it seems to be the benchmark. There are a few places where the house way doesn't seem clear. For example, under the section on splitting 2 pairs, it doesn't necessarily say how to split the pairs when that is the mandated decision. I'm assuming you always put the higher pair in the 2-card hand, but especially for n00bs like me, it seems like that should be spelled out :).
Actually, same problem with the Wiz's 2-pair rule.
Why is the Trump Plaza's house way the "benchmark"? Just curious. I've inquired at one of my local card room chains to see if they will send me a copy of their house way.
The worst possible hand in PGP is a rainbow 9-high; probably related (9875432, but any 9high no straight) to the naming. If you're playing with Asians, you'll hear them say "lahlah" or "loplop" with a soft "p" which means "nothing" (ie any no-pair no straight rainbow) rather than 'Paigow".
The 2pair rule is individual to each house, as are some of the other rules on how to hold the hand. I don't know any 2 casinos who have exactly the same rules. The important thing to know is, in building "House Way", casinos don't choose the aggressive (higher risk) way, they generally choose NOT TO LOSE.
They don't care how many hands push, as long as they don't have to pay.
They are roughly broken up into 3 groups of pairs: low (2-6), middle (7-10), high (J-A). Strategy has changed over the 20 years I've been playing; what I do has worked pretty well for me, but I'm willing to be more aggressive than the house is. I like a highest "low" hand possible in most cases, but also guard my main bet sometimes. So, in general, I ALWAYS keep 2 low pairs together (some houses will only do that with an Ace to put in the low hand, others Ace or King in the low hand, others do it like I do), and generally split low-med and above (some houses do that, others will keep low-med together if there's also Ace PLUS Face to put in the "low" hand, others have a different split point such as Q-8 or above to always split, below that they stay together unless there's an Ace available). You always split Aces with anything. Most people also split Kings with anything. IF the house has a straight or flush with 2 pairs within that hand, they will almost always split the pairs and not play the straight or flush. Optimal strategy will depend on the local house rules, and I don't have the math to provide that.
It's considered bad table manners to call the house hand as it's exposed out loud, because a lot of dealers get it wrong on complicated hands, and it can either hurt or help a player if they mess up setting the hand. However, if they've set it against your advantage (and against "House Way" as you understand it) AND you're the big bettor on the table, you might question it. The ruling will always be to set it "House Way", so be careful about swinging that stick. For example, if you're going to push the hand, and re-setting it will make someone else lose where they got a break, might be best to keep quiet. (They keep the hands in order in the discard rack so they can go back and fix a mis-set hand if they have to.)
On 3OAK Aces, always put 1 ace in the "low" hand. A lot of people split Kings this way as well if they think they know where the aces are around the table.
Realistically speaking, any hand can lose to any hand. I have had kings full of aces, and a straight with ace pair (both hands with aces "up top") and LOST the hand (not just pushed it). I have also won a Jack-high hand a couple of times.
Quote: FaceThere is only one way. The low pair must go in the low hand (the two card hand) as the high hand must always outrank it. If you switch it, your hand is fouled and you automatically lose (unless you have a nice Floor who will let you reset it).
Right! Duh! That was literally the only rule I did know when I walked up to the table.
Quote: FaceThere is only one way. The low pair must go in the low hand (the two card hand) as the high hand must always outrank it. If you switch it, your hand is fouled and you automatically lose (unless you have a nice Floor who will let you reset it).
Only if you play in a horrible casino. Where I play, if your hand is fouled, they re-set it the house way. This is not the floor being "nice"; these are the house rules. IMO this is the only fair way to do things -- the "automatic loss" is just the casino trying to rip you off.
(Note that there is no possible advantage play here -- you can accomplish the same thing by just setting your hand the house way yourself)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: FaceThere is only one way. The low pair must go in the low hand (the two card hand) as the high hand must always outrank it. If you switch it, your hand is fouled and you automatically lose (unless you have a nice Floor who will let you reset it).
Only if you play in a horrible casino. Where I play, if your hand is fouled, they re-set it the house way. This is not the floor being "nice"; these are the house rules. IMO this is the only fair way to do things -- the "automatic loss" is just the casino trying to rip you off.
(Note that there is no possible advantage play here -- you can accomplish the same thing by just setting your hand the house way yourself)
Agreed, and for the record, I've never seen a Floor or a dealer demand that the hand is fouled. I have a very small set of examples, but all of them were allowed to be reset.
But all of the procedure manuals I've seen all say it's a foul hand and loss.
God, I wanna play PGP now >< Fallsview...we may meet again.
Quote: AcesAndEightsWhat house way does the Wizard's simulator use? I'm going to assume the Trump Plaza, but would be curious to know if he implemented his game to actually use his pair-split rules instead of the various (less optimal) house ways of splitting pairs.
I think in the Wizards game, Ace-five straight is the lowest ranking straight. I had it and the house had a medium card straight and beat me. Also on the Wizards game I got 5 Aces after only a few hands. It took me 20 years in real play to ever get that.
The numbers on the Wizard's page all make sense, up to and including the table on "House Edge in One-on-One Pai Gow Poker." If you're banking only against the the dealer, then you have the advantage of winning copies, but you still have to pay a 5% commission on the hands you win. Given those parameters and the win/tie/lose percentages provided, I get the same 0.20% edge (advantage still to the house).
But when you get into banking against the house AND other players, I can't get the numbers to work out. When you bank, you don't put a bet in your circle, correct? Your "bet" is essentially your entire stack, out of which you will pay to the other players the value of their bet, if they win. And, the size of the house's bet against you is the same size as your last bet before you banked.
Now, do you pay the 5% commission on your net win, to the house? Or do the other players pay the 5% commission on their wins to you, but you still pay a 5% commission on any win you get from the house? My spreadsheet is probably borked, but no matter which way I put it in, I can't get the series of probabilities under the "House Edge as Banker by Number of other Players" to spit out. I think it would behoove the Wizard to add some details to this page (or perhaps another appendix) to show the work behind that table.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThe rest of my questions revolve around player banking and the procedure surrounding it.
The numbers on the Wizard's page all make sense, up to and including the table on "House Edge in One-on-One Pai Gow Poker." If you're banking only against the the dealer, then you have the advantage of winning copies, but you still have to pay a 5% commission on the hands you win. Given those parameters and the win/tie/lose percentages provided, I get the same 0.20% edge (advantage still to the house).
But when you get into banking against the house AND other players, I can't get the numbers to work out. When you bank, you don't put a bet in your circle, correct? Your "bet" is essentially your entire stack, out of which you will pay to the other players the value of their bet, if they win. And, the size of the house's bet against you is the same size as your last bet before you banked.
Now, do you pay the 5% commission on your net win, to the house? Or do the other players pay the 5% commission on their wins to you, but you still pay a 5% commission on any win you get from the house? My spreadsheet is probably borked, but no matter which way I put it in, I can't get the series of probabilities under the "House Edge as Banker by Number of other Players" to spit out. I think it would behoove the Wizard to add some details to this page (or perhaps another appendix) to show the work behind that table.
I've done this before. You pay 5% of your net win to the house. The other players still pay commission on their wins, but they pay it to the house. So if 5 other players all bet $100 and you win 3 but lose 2, you get $95 ($100 net - $5 commission) and the 2 winners also get $95 ($100 from you, but $5 of that goes to the house)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've done this before. You pay 5% of your net win to the house. The other players still pay commission on their wins, but they pay it to the house. So if 5 other players all bet $100 and you win 3 but lose 2, you get $95 ($100 net - $5 commission) and the 2 winners also get $95 ($100 from you, but $5 of that goes to the house)
Ugh, this is making my head hurt. So in a player-banked situation, the house takes it coming and going? The player-banker pays commission on the net money it wins from the other players, AND the house takes the 5% cut from the money going the other way? I need an annotated video, lulz.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThe rest of my questions revolve around player banking and the procedure surrounding it.
The numbers on the Wizard's page all make sense, up to and including the table on "House Edge in One-on-One Pai Gow Poker." If you're banking only against the the dealer, then you have the advantage of winning copies, but you still have to pay a 5% commission on the hands you win. Given those parameters and the win/tie/lose percentages provided, I get the same 0.20% edge (advantage still to the house).
But when you get into banking against the house AND other players, I can't get the numbers to work out. When you bank, you don't put a bet in your circle, correct? Your "bet" is essentially your entire stack, out of which you will pay to the other players the value of their bet, if they win. And, the size of the house's bet against you is the same size as your last bet before you banked.
Now, do you pay the 5% commission on your net win, to the house? Or do the other players pay the 5% commission on their wins to you, but you still pay a 5% commission on any win you get from the house? My spreadsheet is probably borked, but no matter which way I put it in, I can't get the series of probabilities under the "House Edge as Banker by Number of other Players" to spit out. I think it would behoove the Wizard to add some details to this page (or perhaps another appendix) to show the work behind that table.
When you bank against the house alone, you are usually limited to your last bet. If you win, you will still pay commission, but you get ties (most of this you said already; just reiterating).
When you bank against the house and there are other players, there is some etiquette involved, which tends to be regional. Some places, other players are expected to sit out a player-bank. Other places, players are expected to drop down to table minimums if they're not already there, or sit the hand out. Still other places you bank, the other players can continue to bet at their own level without expectation. If there's a player at the table who objects to your banking, they may attempt to bully you out of doing it by raising their bet sharply.
To bank, you must have enough money on the table to pay all wagers before the cards are dealt, even if you have to dig for more. The dealer will pull chips from the till to equal your bet and place it in the center of their work area. If you are unwilling to bank in the face of a player who raises their bet up to try and stop you, the bank will return to their house. All players will set their hands; you must look away while you wait, and they should not talk about their hands. You will be next to set your hand. Then the house will expose and set the house hand and you will go head-to-head with it. If you win, the stack they held of house money will remain on the table. If you lose, that stack will be held to be added to what you owe once the player's hands are evaluated against yours.
Win or lose, the dealer will then burn their hand (if the house won, a lot of places put the dealer hand under your bet stack to indicate the house won, but it's still not used again), take yours, and compare it to each other player's hand. The dealer will collect the losing player chips and hold them in the winning stack side (if you won against the dealer) or separately (if you lost against the dealer). The players that win against you will keep their chips in front of them, and the dealer will pay them out of your winning stack (if there is one) after collecting all losers. The winning players will pay their commission to the house as usual (either out of winnings or with added chips). You will receive the net amount (if any) of your winning stack once all hands have been evaluated, and pay the commission only on that amount.
If you had a net loss, the dealer will simply ask you for the total money needed to pay all players and/or the house, with no commission involved from you.
If any sidebets are bet, either by you or by other players, the house pays any winners, and losing sidebet money goes directly into the till at the time each hand is first exposed. If you win a sidebet, it will be paid at the time the dealer checks your hand against the house hand.
Quote: beachbumbabsWhen you bank against the house alone, you are usually limited to your last bet. If you win, you will still pay commission, but you get ties (most of this you said already; just reiterating).
When you bank against the house and there are other players, there is some etiquette involved, which tends to be regional. Some places, other players are expected to sit out a player-bank. Other places, players are expected to drop down to table minimums if they're not already there, or sit the hand out. Still other places you bank, the other players can continue to bet at their own level without expectation. If there's a player at the table who objects to your banking, they may attempt to bully you out of doing it by raising their bet sharply.
To bank, you must have enough money on the table to pay all wagers before the cards are dealt, even if you have to dig for more. The dealer will pull chips from the till to equal your bet and place it in the center of their work area. If you are unwilling to bank in the face of a player who raises their bet up to try and stop you, the bank will return to their house. All players will set their hands; you must look away while you wait, and they should not talk about their hands. You will be next to set your hand. Then the house will expose and set the house hand and you will go head-to-head with it. If you win, the stack they held of house money will remain on the table. If you lose, that stack will be held to be added to what you owe once the player's hands are evaluated against yours.
Win or lose, the dealer will then burn their hand (if the house won, a lot of places put the dealer hand under your bet stack to indicate the house won, but it's still not used again), take yours, and compare it to each other player's hand. The dealer will collect the losing player chips and hold them in the winning stack side (if you won against the dealer) or separately (if you lost against the dealer). The players that win against you will keep their chips in front of them, and the dealer will pay them out of your winning stack (if there is one) after collecting all losers. The winning players will pay their commission as usual (either out of winnings or with added chips). You will receive the net amount (if any) of your winning stack once all hands have been evaluated, and pay the commission only on that amount.
If you had a net loss, the dealer will simply ask you for the total money needed to pay all players and/or the house, with no commission involved from you.
If any sidebets are bet, either by you or by other players, the house pays any winners, and losing sidebet money goes directly into the till at the time each hand is first exposed. If you win a sidebet, it will be paid at the time the dealer checks your hand against the house hand.
Very detailed, thank you Babs!
Under these conditions, I don't understand how it's possible to get an advantage while banking, no matter how many other players are at the table. It seems like all the money in play, either from the house or from the other players, is subject to the same 0.20% expected loss (from the player-banker's perspective). You have the added advantage of winning copies, but still pay the 5% vig on any wins. How is this different from playing heads-up with the dealer while banking?
Quote: AcesAndEightsUgh, this is making my head hurt. So in a player-banked situation, the house takes it coming and going? The player-banker pays commission on the net money it wins from the other players, AND the house takes the 5% cut from the money going the other way? I need an annotated video, lulz.
It's straightforward. The house takes a 5% cut from anyone who wins. The winner always pays the commission. So...
Step 1: all bets are resolved
Step 2: anyone who had a net win pays 5% of that win to the house.
That's it! It's simple.
Quote: AcesAndEightsVery detailed, thank you Babs!
Under these conditions, I don't understand how it's possible to get an advantage while banking, no matter how many other players are at the table. It seems like all the money in play, either from the house or from the other players, is subject to the same 0.20% expected loss (from the player-banker's perspective). You have the added advantage of winning copies, but still pay the 5% vig on any wins. How is this different from playing heads-up with the dealer while banking?
The key is that you only pay 5% on net wins. Not on each win.
If you play heads-up against the house, you pay 5% on each win (since you are only playing 1 hand at a time). So if you play 5 hands at $100 each, lose 2, and win 3, you pay $15 in commission.
On the other hand if you bank and play against 5 players simultaneously for $100 each, lose 2, and win 3, your net win is $100 so you pay only $5 commission. You just saved $10!
(Note: post edited to fix typo in first commission amount)
Quote: AcesAndEightsVery detailed, thank you Babs!
Under these conditions, I don't understand how it's possible to get an advantage while banking, no matter how many other players are at the table. It seems like all the money in play, either from the house or from the other players, is subject to the same 0.20% expected loss (from the player-banker's perspective). You have the added advantage of winning copies, but still pay the 5% vig on any wins. How is this different from playing heads-up with the dealer while banking?
If you're willing to risk it, and the house hand is running hot, you have the opportunity to have the strongest hand with the potential to win much more than your previous bet. You have that same opportunity to lose much more, but you only pay the vig on the net, so you're flat-betting against the other players with the tie advantage, and the other players' money can act as a hedge against your loss to the house. However, prior results are not indicative of future performance. The entire exercise is IMO mostly superstition to "change" the cards when they're running hot for the house, unless you bank every other hand head-to-head. In that case, you shave the house edge as far as possible, and if you're flat-betting, it comes directly down to the vig.
Most big-money PGP players I've seen do a reverse (positive) Martingale, and look for that 1 win (really more like 3 in a row) that will let them get up fast and leave. Hitting that is the only thing I know of that overcomes the vig. I do sort of a semi-positive Martingale, where I raise my bet by 5-10/hand on a winner to a collect point (usually 3 or 4 wins in a row), then back to my base bet. Because I always play the Fortune bet, that helps me lose very slowly while looking for a hot streak of bonus hands, and sometimes win. I'm just a chicken; when my build gets to black, that's usually my cap amount, if not lower than that. But I also shave the HE further by playing 2 hands whenever possible; one tends to pay for the other, because 2/3 of the time you have the best hand among your two and the dealer's one.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe key is that you only pay 5% on net wins. Not on each win.
If you play heads-up against the house, you pay 5% on each win (since you are only playing 1 hand at a time). So if you play 5 hands at $100 each, lose 2, and win 3, you pay $15 in commission.
On the other hand if you bank and play against 5 players simultaneously for $100 each, lose 2, and win 3, your net win is $100 so you pay only $5 commission. You just saved $10!
(Note: post edited to fix typo in first commission amount)
Got it, yeah, I figured there was some interaction with the commission on the net win which I wasn't calculating correctly.
Now the real question is if the WA state cardrooms allow player banking and still don't charge commission. That would be pretty sweet! When playing against the house, you're bucking a 1.30% edge on your bet, and when banking, you have a 1.30% edge on all the money in play against you...I plan to test this eventually, once I have a better feel for the game so I don't make an ass of myself setting my hand :). If you've got the roll to handle it, and there are some moderate-to-large players at the table, it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to get a net edge, or shave down the overall percentage pretty small.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThat's hilarious, so the worst hand that it is possible to get dealt in the game, is named after the game? WTF?
same as in craps and baccarat
I can also see the necessity of side bets on this game. It would definitely suck to get a monster 5 card hand (straight flush or something) and have crap to put up top, resulting in just a lowly push on the main game.
Has there been a published strategy to improve upon the house way, other than the Wizard's rule for splitting 2 pair? It feels like there are a fair number of borderline plays when it comes to straights and flushes with possible pairs/2 pair etc. I suppose one could look at the giant list of probabilities to determine the best play in that case, if playing at home. Does anyone have Stanford Wong's book on strategy?
Quote: FaceQuote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: FaceThere is only one way. The low pair must go in the low hand (the two card hand) as the high hand must always outrank it. If you switch it, your hand is fouled and you automatically lose (unless you have a nice Floor who will let you reset it).
Only if you play in a horrible casino. Where I play, if your hand is fouled, they re-set it the house way. This is not the floor being "nice"; these are the house rules. IMO this is the only fair way to do things -- the "automatic loss" is just the casino trying to rip you off.
(Note that there is no possible advantage play here -- you can accomplish the same thing by just setting your hand the house way yourself)
Agreed, and for the record, I've never seen a Floor or a dealer demand that the hand is fouled. I have a very small set of examples, but all of them were allowed to be reset.
But all of the procedure manuals I've seen all say it's a foul hand and loss.
God, I wanna play PGP now >< Fallsview...we may meet again.
I've messed up setting my hand once and the floor allowed me to reset. This was in harveys lake Tahoe
Quote: JB"Pai Gow" really means "make nine" but the ploppies have redefined it as a 7-card hand which can't even make a pair, such as KQ97632 spanning four suits.
This is funny because I was taught that pai gow means the above hand you described. Guess I was taught wrong
Quote: BeardgoatThis is funny because I was taught that pai gow means the above hand you described. Guess I was taught wrong
Not really taught wrong; that's the commonly used but incorrect translation of the word, as JB mentioned towards the beginning of the thread.
Quote: 98ClubsFoxwoods and Mohegan Sun comped me well for my smallish action 50/100 in the 90's.
Casino comps have changed much since the 90s!
Quote: AcesAndEightsI've discovered my Achilles heel when setting my hand at PGP is not checking for the wheel straight.
Yup. An easy one to miss. The funny thing is, you hold that one the same way for either hand a lot; A-Joker-little cards, at first glance you're holding a pair of aces and putting next 2 highest "up top". Happens with the 2-6 and 3-7 as well when you've got the joker. It's worth sorting your hand as well; lots of times there are 3 pairs, not 2, so the highest goes "up top", not the lower of 2, but your eye sees 2 pairs much more quickly than 3. And with a 6 card straight or flush, the play is in putting the HIGHEST extra card up top (unless you can hold the value and put a pair "up top"), rather than keeping the top 5 and putting the leftovers up top, which is what most poker games have you do. Also, when the hand contains both a straight and a flush (even sometimes with a straight-flush), choose the highest "up top" hand you can make from among those 3, even if you play a straight instead of a flush or a flush instead of a SF. It's relatively rare to have a full hand lose to another full hand, so make your "low" hand as strong as you can. And if you get a 4OAK, it's usually correct to split them unless you have another pair or ace to work with; and even with an ace, with a high rank 4OAK, the play is to split it.
You've probably sussed most of the above out already, but those are the most common hands I see people set to less than their best advantage.
Quote: beachbumbabsYup. An easy one to miss. The funny thing is, you hold that one the same way for either hand a lot; A-Joker-little cards, at first glance you're holding a pair of aces and putting next 2 highest "up top". Happens with the 2-6 and 3-7 as well when you've got the joker. It's worth sorting your hand as well; lots of times there are 3 pairs, not 2, so the highest goes "up top", not the lower of 2, but your eye sees 2 pairs much more quickly than 3. And with a 6 card straight or flush, the play is in putting the HIGHEST extra card up top (unless you can hold the value and put a pair "up top"), rather than keeping the top 5 and putting the leftovers up top, which is what most poker games have you do. Also, when the hand contains both a straight and a flush (even sometimes with a straight-flush), choose the highest "up top" hand you can make from among those 3, even if you play a straight instead of a flush or a flush instead of a SF. It's relatively rare to have a full hand lose to another full hand, so make your "low" hand as strong as you can. And if you get a 4OAK, it's usually correct to split them unless you have another pair or ace to work with; and even with an ace, with a high rank 4OAK, the play is to split it.
You've probably sussed most of the above out already, but those are the most common hands I see people set to less than their best advantage.
For "optimal strategy" I've been following the Trump Plaza house way (why is that one the "standard" again?) except for the Wizard's two-pair rule. That house way says you should keep together 4OAK if they are 2s through 6s.
Do you have a written strategy that you follow? Just curious since you are the self-admitted "iron butt" PGP player around here :)
Quote: AcesAndEightsFor "optimal strategy" I've been following the Trump Plaza house way (why is that one the "standard" again?) except for the Wizard's two-pair rule. That house way says you should keep together 4OAK if they are 2s through 6s.
Do you have a written strategy that you follow? Just curious since you are the self-admitted "iron butt" PGP player around here :)
Yeah, I play the 2-6 together way as well, split above that, just like I keep 2 pair 2-6 together no matter what. As for writing it down, this is the first time I've done that, but it's just me having played a lot as opposed to having done the math or used a particular system, so take any particular advice with a grain of salt; it works for me, as so many have said around here. Maybe there's a book in it, collaborating with a math guy from this forum. I can iron butt every PGP game in the country, find out the house rules and sidebets, and do the math for optimal strategy by casino house way. Figure out regional etiquette and practices. Publish as a guidebook. I should sell, oh, 10 or so. But a lot of fun doing the research. :)
Quote: AcesAndEightsWell I couldn't help myself and got a used copy of Wong's book on PGP strategy ($4.00 with shipping). I'm looking forward to reading it!
Good plan! Probably a wise investment for me, too. I've been delaying upping my game because I've only been playing UTH here (no PGP outside the Indian casinos in Florida).
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: AcesAndEightsWell I couldn't help myself and got a used copy of Wong's book on PGP strategy ($4.00 with shipping). I'm looking forward to reading it!
Good plan! Probably a wise investment for me, too. I've been delaying upping my game because I've only been playing UTH here (no PGP outside the Indian casinos in Florida).
From reading some of the Amazon reviews, it sounds like Wong calculates the optimal strategy for playing against someone else who is also playing optimal strategy. This doesn't seem prudent given that most of the time you will be playing against the house way, or a worse version of it if you are banking (most players seem to do house-way-ish with deviations that aren't better....)
Regardless, I'm curious to see how complicated his "optimal" strategy is. Sounds pretty complicated from the reviews, as I would imagine.
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: beachbumbabsQuote: AcesAndEightsWell I couldn't help myself and got a used copy of Wong's book on PGP strategy ($4.00 with shipping). I'm looking forward to reading it!
Good plan! Probably a wise investment for me, too. I've been delaying upping my game because I've only been playing UTH here (no PGP outside the Indian casinos in Florida).
From reading some of the Amazon reviews, it sounds like Wong calculates the optimal strategy for playing against someone else who is also playing optimal strategy. This doesn't seem prudent given that most of the time you will be playing against the house way, or a worse version of it if you are banking (most players seem to do house-way-ish with deviations that aren't better....)
Regardless, I'm curious to see how complicated his "optimal" strategy is. Sounds pretty complicated from the reviews, as I would imagine.
Well, maybe we should chip in and offer a math guy on here a good toke to build a calculator with possible house rules, then we could plug in the particular house way for each casino. I would think there would be some real bux in an app that did that, as there must be hundreds of thousands of PGP players in the US. Wish I were a better programmer/math guy; I totally don't have the skills.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: AcesAndEightsQuote: beachbumbabsQuote: AcesAndEightsWell I couldn't help myself and got a used copy of Wong's book on PGP strategy ($4.00 with shipping). I'm looking forward to reading it!
Good plan! Probably a wise investment for me, too. I've been delaying upping my game because I've only been playing UTH here (no PGP outside the Indian casinos in Florida).
From reading some of the Amazon reviews, it sounds like Wong calculates the optimal strategy for playing against someone else who is also playing optimal strategy. This doesn't seem prudent given that most of the time you will be playing against the house way, or a worse version of it if you are banking (most players seem to do house-way-ish with deviations that aren't better....)
Regardless, I'm curious to see how complicated his "optimal" strategy is. Sounds pretty complicated from the reviews, as I would imagine.
Well, maybe we should chip in and offer a math guy on here a good toke to build a calculator with possible house rules, then we could plug in the particular house way for each casino. I would think there would be some real bux in an app that did that, as there must be hundreds of thousands of PGP players in the US. Wish I were a better programmer/math guy; I totally don't have the skills.
Here is a calculator that tells you the highest EV way to split any given hand. Doesn't specify which house way you are going against though.
Quote: beachbumbabsYeah, thanks for the link. I was specifically talking about researching the house ways and fine tuning for each casino/chain/region/whatever, rather than an approximation, but there may not be enough edge available to make it worth the trouble. Just a random thought.
Yeah, I like the idea, but I agree that there might not be enough ROI for that amount of work, given the similarity between the various house ways. In an idea world, I'd like to have an optimal strategy to play against some normalized house way, to play when I'm not banking. Then when banking, probably play Wong's optimal strategy...
I don't know why I'm giving so much thought to a game that is generally -EV and that, the first time I played, I said out loud at the table, "this game is dumb." LOL.
Quote: AcesAndEightsWell I couldn't help myself and got a used copy of Wong's book on PGP strategy ($4.00 with shipping). I'm looking forward to reading it!
An excellent investment for learning Optimal Strategy.
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, maybe we should chip in and offer a math guy on here a good toke to build a calculator with possible house rules, then we could plug in the particular house way for each casino. I would think there would be some real bux in an app that did that, as there must be hundreds of thousands of PGP players in the US. Wish I were a better programmer/math guy; I totally don't have the skills.
After that, find out if there is a particular set of Rules that does best against all general ways (esp. Vegas and AC-NJ). A peek into the wayback machine here will show that at least Paigowdan and myself have taken a crack at it.
A few things:
1. Optimal strategy generally doesn't have to be optimized on a "per bad strategy" basis, really. Solid, optimized strategy defeats all shit strategies and house ways handily, in a "generally superior case" scenario without further optimization, unless you are scratching for a tenth of a percent or less.
2. Optimal strategy is focused on proper playing of two pairs hands primarily. You CAN also optimize to a ridiculous degree in streamlining a long strategy as Mike [Shackleford] had pointed out in the playing five aces in his discussions on the game. To quote petty house ways: "Always split five Aces unless your Five aces can put a pair of Kings on top! (They should add, "Like you'll ever see that in a lifetime." (Mike Pavlo dealt this hand at the California in 2011, I believe to himself as dealer.) No, always split five aces, because if you have five aces with a pair of kings, then you play the aces up, and the Aces-full-of-Kings Full house in the five card side. NO ONE will - or can possibly - call a misplay on that. (Jesus, even if you played AK/AAAAK you'd still have a monster hand!) This is how "OC" Pai Gow Poker strategy can become. Even writing the extra useless sentence for a hand you'll never see is the hallmark of a wasted PGP strategy.
3. Focus on optimizing two pairs, and flushes/straights with no top versus a strong pair with an ace top, and playing four-of-a-kind Kings with an Ace, or four of a Kind Aces with a King as trips with AK top banking, when your options are to split into pairs or play an ace-low up. HUGE difference between AK versus A-low on top when holding all Kings. Also, keep 7's and less quads together with a King, else split. Don't break up a low four of a kind if you have a King or Ace.
I posted a one-page fully optimized PGP strategy two years ago here. I'll dig it up.
