DegenLP
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 1:06:42 AM permalink
Hi Wizards of Vegas,

I come today to bring you a unique lottery concept, and am simply asking for feedback on the system.

It works as such. Entrants allocate money to a pool. The is no limit on the max number of entrants of the maximum amount an entrant can add to the pool.

The lottery executes itself every 12 hours, and a winner is automatically crowned, with payment distributed shortly after a draw.

Each entrants winning odds depends on the amount they have allocated, relative to the amount in the pool.

Example, If there are 100 entrants, and each entrant enters with 1 USD each, then each entrant has a 1% chance to 100x their 1 USD.

Everything happens in real time up to pool expiry, and entrants will be diluted when new entrants join.

All positions are public information.


Let us know what you think of this idea. Below would be mitigations and extra information about DLP.


Now, there is an issue that we foresaw: If a big player comes in, it is easy for them to buy up a large amount to ensure they have a high chance of winning.

The way we have solved this issue is by taxing the winner 5%. This way, if an entrant sees a 1 USD pool, and enters with 99 USD, he will have a net loss of 4 USD despite winning the pool.

Degen LP collects this tax, and distributes 90% of the tax back to NFT holders of Degen LP, while retaining 10% for ops.
DRich
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DegenLP
March 24th, 2023 at 5:13:52 AM permalink
Calling it a tax will never work in the U.S. How are you going to handle currency reporting and international law?

Basically what you are proposing is a lottery with 5% Vig. What type of a bond will you be buying to insure all payouts?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 5:46:29 AM permalink
Hi DRich, appreciate your response.

We're not based in the US, and are not subject to US law. Also, its a Decentralised product. Meaning that even we dont have the power to rig the system hahaha. Our RNG (Random Number Generator) is verifiably random (Chainlink VRF), and all payouts are distributed shortly after the draw, with potentially 0 input from the dev team. Degen LP works without any of us lifting a finger, and code is law.

Payouts dont have to be insured, because the max payout will always be the total amount of money inside the pool.

For example, if 4 people join and allocate 5 USDC each, the maximum payout will only be 20 USDC. After Tax, the user receives 18 USDC. The 2 USDC "tax" gets sent to a treasury wallet, where 90% of funds collected from all transactions can be redeemed by anyone holding a DLP NFT.

With regard to NFTs, the way i was thinking to structure it was: 10,000 softcap on NFT limit, with 2.5k tranched releases. meaning 2.5k NFTs claim 90% of the transaction fees generated, thereafter when the next 2.5k is released, rewards for the first group will half.

We actually already made the system, available at NFTs aren't up yet though. some people have joined and seem happy and we've managed to get some traction on CT (Crypto Twitter).

Not sure if this answers your question, but im happy to hear your thoughts nonetheless.
AxelWolf
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DegenLP
March 24th, 2023 at 5:51:30 AM permalink
Quote: DegenLP

Hi DRich, appreciate your response.

We're not based in the US, and are not subject to US law. Also, its a Decentralised product. Meaning that even we dont have the power to rig the system hahaha. Our RNG (Random Number Generator) is verifiably random (Chainlink VRF), and all payouts are distributed shortly after the draw, with potentially 0 input from the dev team. Degen LP works without any of us lifting a finger, and code is law.

Payouts dont have to be insured, because the max payout will always be the total amount of money inside the pool.

For example, if 4 people join and allocate 5 USDC each, the maximum payout will only be 20 USDC. After Tax, the user receives 18 USDC. The 2 USDC "tax" gets sent to a treasury wallet, where 90% of funds collected from all transactions can be redeemed by anyone holding a DLP NFT.

With regard to NFTs, the way i was thinking to structure it was: 10,000 softcap on NFT limit, with 2.5k tranched releases. meaning 2.5k NFTs claim 90% of the transaction fees generated, thereafter when the next 2.5k is released, rewards for the first group will half.

We actually already made the system, available at NFTs aren't up yet though. some people have joined and seem happy and we've managed to get some traction on CT (Crypto Twitter).

Not sure if this answers your question, but im happy to hear your thoughts nonetheless.
link to original post

Got to love the name... Degen Lottery
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ThatDonGuy
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DegenLPMukke
March 24th, 2023 at 8:24:07 AM permalink
What you are describing sounds like this:
There is a new lottery every 12 hours.
Each ticket costs the same amount (in your example, US$1, although you can make it a really small amount - say, US$0.000001 - to allow for things like currency conversion; the key is, your chance of winning is directly proportional to how much you have bet).
The winner gets 95% of the money, with 4.5% going to the NFT holders and 0.5% set aside for operating costs.

Do I have that right?
Other than the "once every 12 hours" concept, there doesn't seem that much about this that is "unique."
Mental
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DegenLP
March 24th, 2023 at 9:55:57 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

What you are describing sounds like this:
There is a new lottery every 12 hours.
Each ticket costs the same amount (in your example, US$1, although you can make it a really small amount - say, US$0.000001 - to allow for things like currency conversion; the key is, your chance of winning is directly proportional to how much you have bet).
The winner gets 95% of the money, with 4.5% going to the NFT holders and 0.5% set aside for operating costs.

Do I have that right?
Other than the "once every 12 hours" concept, there doesn't seem that much about this that is "unique."
link to original post

This is the same lottery concept that has been around for two millennia. Obviously, there are some differences in execution and administration of various lotteries.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
DegenLP
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 5:10:48 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

What you are describing sounds like this:
There is a new lottery every 12 hours.
Each ticket costs the same amount (in your example, US$1, although you can make it a really small amount - say, US$0.000001 - to allow for things like currency conversion; the key is, your chance of winning is directly proportional to how much you have bet).
The winner gets 95% of the money, with 4.5% going to the NFT holders and 0.5% set aside for operating costs.

Do I have that right?
Other than the "once every 12 hours" concept, there doesn't seem that much about this that is "unique."
link to original post



Hi Sir,

Thanks for taking the time to get back.

Yes - Every lottery is 12 hours.
The price of each ticket is 1 dollar, as that has a direct impact on drawing. Here's how it works:
Person A joins and allocates $1, 1 ticket
Person B joins and allocates $2, 2 tickets
Person C joins and allocates $3, 3 tickets

Upon pool expiry, a random number generator generates a number from 1,2,3,4,5,6 where if the RNG produces 1, Person A will win. If the RNG produced 2 or 3, Person B would win. the conversion rate from USDC to tickets will always be 1:1 (for ease of RNG drawing)

You're right that the winner gets 95% of the money, 4.5% to NFT holders, 0.5% operating costs.

Other than the 12 hour concept, allow me to show how Degen LP is different.

DLP allows users to bet in real time. That's where the "Degen" element comes in. Because a user's win % is determined based on his allocation, relative to the pool, there is incentive to leave the Degen LP tab open after joining a lottery, to see if any new entrant comes in to dilute you.

This is different from traditional lotteries, where the purchase of any extra tickets do not dilute the win% of other entrants.

By allowing users to dilute each other in real time, we allow a dynamic lottery environment where users are able to directly influence their win %.
Example: Person A enters the lottery and has a 15% win %. He can choose to allocate more USDC, such that his win% becomes 33%. This dilutes Person's B and C who are already in the pool, who can then respond by increasing their share and trying to secure more win % for themselves.
At the end of the draw, the winner is still decided depending on chance, and there are safeguards to ensure that users do not over allocate, at the expense of other people in the pool.

Please poke as many holes as you can in our system, so we can answer any question that our userbase throws at us. Thank you for your question and hope this answer is sufficient.
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 5:17:01 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: ThatDonGuy

What you are describing sounds like this:
There is a new lottery every 12 hours.
Each ticket costs the same amount (in your example, US$1, although you can make it a really small amount - say, US$0.000001 - to allow for things like currency conversion; the key is, your chance of winning is directly proportional to how much you have bet).
The winner gets 95% of the money, with 4.5% going to the NFT holders and 0.5% set aside for operating costs.

Do I have that right?
Other than the "once every 12 hours" concept, there doesn't seem that much about this that is "unique."
link to original post

This is the same lottery concept that has been around for two millennia. Obviously, there are some differences in execution and administration of various lotteries.
link to original post



Hi Mental sir,

yeah we're aware that this someone else has thought of this concept before, as it is a relatively easy concept to think of.
My friends and i aren't pros. Some of us are web 2/3 builders, some of us are hardcore Degens, but we're tight.

One day a friend of mine calls me with this whack idea of allowing someone to influence their win% in a lottery and we ran it afew times with several groups. All of them loved the idea and so we built it.

We did have a proper think of where Degen LP's competitive advantage lies - whilst considering the success of SOL based games like Degen Coin Flip, and the plethora of games which have emerged, wanting to replicate its success.

Web 3.0 is relatively new, and the space is ripe for disruption. We have no idea if Degen LP will be a hit or a bust. But it is fun working alongside friends and chatting with people such as yourselves, making as many friends as possible across the world wide web
SOOPOO
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DegenLPMukke
March 24th, 2023 at 6:58:03 PM permalink
Unless you are the absolute last Ďbettorí, you wonít know what your chance of winning will be. But you will know that for every dollar you bet you are losing 5 cents. 5% vig for a lottery type game is quite reasonable. I just donít see a particular draw for this game over the myriad of other gambling options available to the public.

Will bettors have money in account with you, or will they have to transfer money to you for each transaction?
ThatDonGuy
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DegenLP
March 24th, 2023 at 7:47:25 PM permalink
Quote: DegenLP


Other than the 12 hour concept, allow me to show how Degen LP is different.

DLP allows users to bet in real time. That's where the "Degen" element comes in. Because a user's win % is determined based on his allocation, relative to the pool, there is incentive to leave the Degen LP tab open after joining a lottery, to see if any new entrant comes in to dilute you.

This is different from traditional lotteries, where the purchase of any extra tickets do not dilute the win% of other entrants.
link to original post


True...and perhaps "lottery" was the wrong word to use.

What you are describing is what is usually called in the USA a "raffle." I am not sure what it is called in other countries; I don't think "tombola" is quite correct.
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:29:42 PM permalink
hmm i gave this quite a thorough think through.

The way we've structured it is: Everyone can see on what their current win % is in real time. So in a sense, as long as you have a DLP tab open, you'll be able to see how new entrants affect your win % as they enter.

Also, it is true that for every dollar you bet, you lose 5 cents, but when i thought about it, isn't the case that you'll lose 5% on your dollar, so long as your dollar is the only dollar in the pool (i.e. pool size = $1). If not, there is always upside (winning other people's money hahaha) from putting $1 into a pool of any size.

For example, if the pool had $99 and i put in $1, my thoughts would be: i am risking my $1 to earn all entrant's $99 dollars, and my downside is only $1. 1% chance to 100x. Let me know if my thought process is flawed here hahahaha but i agree that there are many other gambling games that may be more mainstream and will be alot easier to market. (then again, building a mainstream game on web 3.0 is hard because the users see no incentive to shift to web 3.0 tech)

Betters don't keep any money with us. They don't transfer us a single cent. All interacts with Degen LP are with a Metamask wallet, and the only currency accepted at Degen LP is USDC, which effectively reduces our exposure to the volatility of crypto.

We built Degen LP on the Fantom Blockchain, using the programming language Solidity, and HTML on the website
(Contract (FTM): 0x31999a3d3dea2f043cb6edc4f8348c786fefe1b4)

Allow me to present you an alternative Monetisation strategy, which we are in our future plans.

The Degen Lottery Pool Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) represent a unique and indivisible claim to the pool of "taxes" collected. The ownership of these NFTs confers no additional rights other than the ability to claim their share of txn fees, or as determined by the platform's governance structure.

These NFTs serve have governance elements, meaning the holders of these NFTs effectively control the future direction of the platform. This includes
1) Pool frequency
2) Pool taxes
3) Pool min/max amounts
4) Current entry amounts
5) Cross chain integration
6) New features - new game integration (like a coin flip or smth maybe)
7) Cross project collaborations
8) Design ideas

In games like Degen Coin Flip, there is a 3.5% vig, where a portion of the "tax" is distributed to NFT holders. These NFT holders effectively govern the platform.
Check them out here: /collection/degen-coin-flip

In a sense, having web 3.0 integration allows for a greater degree of "userbase ownership" of the platform. We as founders dont even make the decisions hahaha. In our minds. This is a great sell. But i appreciate all the reality checks this platform has offered us. Keep it coming guys. We're considering issuing airdropped NFTs to the members of this thread as a token of thanks for all your input. We'll update this thread if this materializes.
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:31:06 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Unless you are the absolute last Ďbettorí, you wonít know what your chance of winning will be. But you will know that for every dollar you bet you are losing 5 cents. 5% vig for a lottery type game is quite reasonable. I just donít see a particular draw for this game over the myriad of other gambling options available to the public.

Will bettors have money in account with you, or will they have to transfer money to you for each transaction?
link to original post



Replied but forgot to tag you
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:39:11 PM permalink
ah yes im familiar with a raffle, and you are right that it seems more like a raffle than a lottery. Perhaps might have been better if we just called it "Degen Money Pool" HAHA. DLP has a pretty nice ring to it.

Also, DApp radar listing, if yall are interested hahah
www.dappradar.com/fantom/gambling/degen-lottery-pool
SOOPOO
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:45:55 PM permalink
You donít win the 99, you win 95. So on this website we discuss EV, which is short for expected value. Your expected value is 95 cent return for every dollar you bet. Of course, there will be one winner each time, and the rest will be losers.

The NFT mumbo jumbo just determines who gets that 5 cents. Meaning to the bettor it is irrelevant. It matters if you are an investor in the company, which is essentially what you are if you buy one of the NFTs.
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:51:55 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

You donít win the 99, you win 95. So on this website we discuss EV, which is short for expected value. Your expected value is 95 cent return for every dollar you bet. Of course, there will be one winner each time, and the rest will be losers.

The NFT mumbo jumbo just determines who gets that 5 cents. Meaning to the bettor it is irrelevant. It matters if you are an investor in the company, which is essentially what you are if you buy one of the NFTs.
link to original post



Yup. math checks out sir/ma'am, and you're right about the NFTs too haha.
Our whole idea is to make the platform interesting to potential bettors and investors. so regardless of how you want to earn, there is something in store for users with DLP.

I think for the people here who have already responded to the thread. Ill be issuing you guys one of our NFTs (probably in a month and a half from now or sooner. ill let you know) for free. Just DM me a FTM wallet address (Preferably a metamask wallet or one that allows you to hold NFTs). Thank you for teaching us a great deal. It has been super insightful.
SOOPOO
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DegenLP
March 24th, 2023 at 9:06:22 PM permalink
Quote: DegenLP

Quote: SOOPOO

You donít win the 99, you win 95. So on this website we discuss EV, which is short for expected value. Your expected value is 95 cent return for every dollar you bet. Of course, there will be one winner each time, and the rest will be losers.

The NFT mumbo jumbo just determines who gets that 5 cents. Meaning to the bettor it is irrelevant. It matters if you are an investor in the company, which is essentially what you are if you buy one of the NFTs.
link to original post



Yup. math checks out sir/ma'am, and you're right about the NFTs too haha.
Our whole idea is to make the platform interesting to potential bettors and investors. so regardless of how you want to earn, there is something in store for users with DLP.

I think for the people here who have already responded to the thread. Ill be issuing you guys one of our NFTs (probably in a month and a half from now or sooner. ill let you know) for free. Just DM me a FTM wallet address (Preferably a metamask wallet or one that allows you to hold NFTs). Thank you for teaching us a great deal. It has been super insightful.
link to original post



Thank you for the offer of a free NFT but as I donít have an FTM wallet nor do I plan on getting one I think Iíll have to pass. Since this is the Wizardís forum if he wants it please give mine to him.
Dieter
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Dieter
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March 24th, 2023 at 9:25:23 PM permalink
Quote: DegenLP


I think for the people here who have already responded to the thread. Ill be issuing you guys one of our NFTs (probably in a month and a half from now or sooner. ill let you know) for free. Just DM me a FTM wallet address (Preferably a metamask wallet or one that allows you to hold NFTs). Thank you for teaching us a great deal. It has been super insightful.
link to original post



Man, I knew I should have posted my thoughts earlier, so I could decline acceptance... nuts.

Any anti-bot features or complications?
I can only imagine that someone is going to play algorithmically, and this will end up annoying humans fueling the game.
May the cards fall in your favor.
DegenLP
DegenLP
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March 24th, 2023 at 9:41:50 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: DegenLP


I think for the people here who have already responded to the thread. Ill be issuing you guys one of our NFTs (probably in a month and a half from now or sooner. ill let you know) for free. Just DM me a FTM wallet address (Preferably a metamask wallet or one that allows you to hold NFTs). Thank you for teaching us a great deal. It has been super insightful.
link to original post



Man, I knew I should have posted my thoughts earlier, so I could decline acceptance... nuts.

Any anti-bot features or complications?
I can only imagine that someone is going to play algorithmically, and this will end up annoying humans fueling the game.
link to original post




Hi Dieter,

haha we're just happy that we found a bunch of people who we can bounce ideas off, and wanted to say thank you regardless if you accept our gift or not.

I think that if people were to use a bot, the only bot application for Degen LP would be to deposit money into the draw every x period. That would be good for us and for the player base. We don't mind those kinds of bots hahaha. I doubt other bots would be useful for DLP. We use a third party verifiable RNG so even we cant rig that, and neither can a bot.

The only complication would that a person who has alot of money can just dilute everyone else by allocating a significant amount of capital. The 5% tax would work against this bully. Its a solution on our end, but we need more market data to test our theory.

Oh yeah dont worry haha if anyone has anything they wanna add on, please feel free.

We can chat directly on telegram too if you prefer. just drop into our telegram and we chat chat there. im active when im at my computer

My actual name is Alex, People call me L sometimes.

t.me/Degen_LP
Last edited by: DegenLP on Mar 24, 2023
Mental
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March 25th, 2023 at 8:39:25 AM permalink
I am still trying to think of a single reason that people would want to play a 95/5 raffle that only resolves twice a day. I have problem keeping my interest in games that take more than 5 seconds to resolve. I turn off animation when I play roulette online so I get a near-instant result. I was playing slots at three sites simultaneously for several hours this morning. I hit a bunch of jackpots up to US$12,000. That is barely enough action to keep my interest.

There are countless wagers available through platforms that are well-know and have established reputations to defend. Some of them are US regulated if you live in the right US state. Many of these wagers are interactive and have fantastic graphics, audio effects, and clever bells and whistles.

If it is a matter of getting large payoffs, I still don't think you have an interesting game. Your degen idea is that people will constantly reduce their own payoff ratio by buying more entries. Do they want big payoffs relative to their bet or not?

Draftkings Rocket lets the player choose their own odds without worrying about dilution. You can choose a payoff between 1.01 times your bet up to 1000x. You can choose your bet between $1 to $1000. DK Rocket resolves quickly if you lose and gives you a long exciting buildup if you win big. The RTP is 97%. DK Digits and DK Slapshot are variants.

You target audience is people who are dumber than dirt. On second thought, I suppose that means you have a sure winner.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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March 25th, 2023 at 10:02:02 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

I am still trying to think of a single reason that people would want to play a 95/5 raffle that only resolves twice a day.
link to original post


(trimmed)

Did I miss something?

I know the pool was structured to resolve after 12 hours, but I didn't realize there might be only one open at a time.
May the cards fall in your favor.
DegenLP
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March 25th, 2023 at 10:17:22 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

I am still trying to think of a single reason that people would want to play a 95/5 raffle that only resolves twice a day. I have problem keeping my interest in games that take more than 5 seconds to resolve. I turn off animation when I play roulette online so I get a near-instant result. I was playing slots at three sites simultaneously for several hours this morning. I hit a bunch of jackpots up to US$12,000. That is barely enough action to keep my interest.

There are countless wagers available through platforms that are well-know and have established reputations to defend. Some of them are US regulated if you live in the right US state. Many of these wagers are interactive and have fantastic graphics, audio effects, and clever bells and whistles.

If it is a matter of getting large payoffs, I still don't think you have an interesting game. Your degen idea is that people will constantly reduce their own payoff ratio by buying more entries. Do they want big payoffs relative to their bet or not?

Draftkings Rocket lets the player choose their own odds without worrying about dilution. You can choose a payoff between 1.01 times your bet up to 1000x. You can choose your bet between $1 to $1000. DK Rocket resolves quickly if you lose and gives you a long exciting buildup if you win big. The RTP is 97%. DK Digits and DK Slapshot are variants.

You target audience is people who are dumber than dirt. On second thought, I suppose that means you have a sure winner.
link to original post



Hey man,

you just made us rethink our entire operation. I think we'll be pivoting. people need instant gratification. We'll be back. Thank you for this. Need more honest people like you around. I would like to stay in touch
Mental
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March 25th, 2023 at 10:19:22 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mental

I am still trying to think of a single reason that people would want to play a 95/5 raffle that only resolves twice a day.
link to original post


(trimmed)

Did I miss something?

I know the pool was structured to resolve after 12 hours, but I didn't realize there might be only one open at a time.
link to original post

Maybe I took the use of singular in the OP to mean just one.
Quote:

The lottery executes itself every 12 hours, and a winner is automatically crowned, with payment distributed shortly after a draw.

I don't see anywhere that they mention overlapping raffles. Who would wager in the first hour of a raffle if there are others resolving soon. If nobody buys the first ticket, there is no raffle.

This needs to be bootstrapped by heavy promotional spend. I am in if there is a 6% unlimited bonus-back promo. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty boring way to gamble. Even parimutuel horse races go off every few minutes at a simulcast venue. A punter can convince themselves they have an edge at the ponies.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Mental
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March 25th, 2023 at 10:34:51 AM permalink
Are you planning to operate as a regulated entity under some governmental oversight? You say that every wager will be public. Does that mean associated with a screen name? How do I know that the other screen names are not just shills? Even if there are real names, am I supposed to verify that every other player is a real degen gambler and not a shill? You can have a perfect RNG, but how am I to verify that it chose the right winning bettor? this seems solvable, but I am curious how you prove the raffle is fair.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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March 25th, 2023 at 11:21:39 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

I don't see anywhere that they mention overlapping raffles. Who would wager in the first hour of a raffle if there are others resolving soon. If nobody buys the first ticket, there is no raffle.

This needs to be bootstrapped by heavy promotional spend. I am in if there is a 6% unlimited bonus-back promo. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty boring way to gamble. Even parimutuel horse races go off every few minutes at a simulcast venue. A punter can convince themselves they have an edge at the ponies.
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(snipped)

I can envision players having the option of either playing in a currently open pool, or creating a new pool (if no pool they created is currently open and if it has been a certain minimum amount of time since the last pool was created - I suggest either 6 minutes or 18 minutes).

The rules don't say either way, and I'm not inquisitive enough to go play a demo on this one.


As for the appeal, do you want to be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond?
May the cards fall in your favor.
Mental
Mental
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March 25th, 2023 at 12:08:57 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

As for the appeal, do you want to be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond?
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That's easy: Big fish in a big pond.

But I don't want to be the fish that these guys are fileting.

The point of your fish metaphor is eluding me.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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Dieter
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March 25th, 2023 at 12:43:38 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: Dieter

As for the appeal, do you want to be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond?
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That's easy: Big fish in a big pond.

But I don't want to be the fish that these guys are fileting.

The point of your fish metaphor is eluding me.
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I can only imagine that the most avid players have specific opinions about which is more favorable, while ignoring the vig.

>shrug< Some people play roulette anyway.
May the cards fall in your favor.

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