Mental
Mental
Joined: Dec 10, 2018
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 465
Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambitChumpChange
June 22nd, 2022 at 9:08:45 AM permalink
I have run into way too many problems dealing with online casinos. Most issues were eventually resolved after I spent anxious time waiting for the online sites to do the right thing. However, it is clear that anyone who wins big money from online casinos is considered to be a possible scammer or criminal. At that point, you can forget about being treated like a customer or even a human being with legal rights. Since online casinos offer many games with high variance and a high return-to-player percentage compared to B&M casinos, many players will win just by being lucky for long stretches.

I had one casino that wrote me a threatening e-mail after I tried to cash out $5000 of winnings. They accused me of abusing their deposit match bonuses. I suspect this was just a standard boilerplate accusation of wrongdoing that they use to fire a shot over the bow of winning players. In fact, I only ever took one deposit match. This was the new-player sign-up deposit match which was much less than $5000. Since the terms of service say they can seize my balance if I do anything wrong, making false accusations of wrongdoing can have a chilling effect on winning players. I gave this site a significant amount of play on leaderboard competitions over a period of 12 months. I never tried to withdraw any funds until the site sent all their players an e-mail saying they were going to shut down the site in 45 days and reopen under a new skin. I knew from experience that it can take very long to get approved for my first withdrawal at most online sites. I wanted to do a test withdrawal. The $5K was a small fraction of my balance, but I should have tried a smaller withdrawal for my first attempt to withdraw. The $5K apparently caught the attention of a higher up who has an interest in the profit/loss of the site. Lower level employees probably handle routine smallish withdrawals and don't have a stake in whether I am a winner or loser. The employee who sent me the e-mail felt it necessary to lie for the purposes of financial gain for the site. (Legally, the deliberate misrepresentation of fact for the purpose of depriving someone of a valuable possession is fraud.) My accuser did approve the $5k withdrawal, but it took a long time before the money was actually disbursed. I requested a withdrawal of the remaining balance the day before the site did finally close down for good. At that point, they were probably processing so many withdrawals that they forgot to try and intimidate me or steal my funds.

I spent four months trying to make my first withdrawal from another site. The company kept rejecting my financial documents and IDs. This can be very time consuming. I submit a document and wait for days. I get a rejection e-mail. I resubmit and wait. I get a rejection based on a different reason. Many modern banks don't send paper statements and I had not used a paper check for one of my bank accounts in 20 years. They wanted a canceled check, so I had to buy replacement checks and wait for them to arrive. At another point, they complained that my PDF bank statement was redacted. Yes, the bank X'ed out all but the last four digits of my account number on the statement. Okay, technically the statement was redacted, but not by me. This lead to another e-mail exchange and more delays.

At the current time, one of my accounts with a very large balance has been suspended. This freezes my ability to play, use promos, or withdraw funds at that site. No explanation was given in the e-mail announcing the freeze. I am only told that the Term and Conditions give them a right to suspend my account pending a review. I have no idea of what they are reviewing. I suspect that they are upset that I hit a number of rather large slot jackpots lately. They stated that the review might take up to 10 calendar days. I am pretty sure that anything I say will be used against me, so I am not contacting them. I am just trying to be patient and wait out the suspension and see what happens. There is a lot of money at stake, including a very large amount of money that I deposited on the site. I do hope they realize I won by getting lucky while playing their games and promotions the way they were designed to be played.

Regulators in my state require that I exhaust all reasonable avenues to settle a dispute with an online casino before I even file a complaint. The problem is that any substantive interaction with an online site would reveal to them that I understand way too much about the math behind their games and promotions. As soon as they pigeonhole me as a thinking player, I am sure my play and activities will get even more unwanted attention. I have found subtle errors in online games that I would like to bring to the regulators attention. Frankly, I do not want to be identified by name when they contact casinos or game manufacturers about these issues. I have absorbed hundreds of dollars in losses because it is not worth it to get in their faces about it.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 160
  • Posts: 21285
Thanks for this post from:
ChumpChange
July 3rd, 2022 at 7:49:07 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

I have run into way too many problems dealing with online casinos. Most issues were eventually resolved after I spent anxious time waiting for the online sites to do the right thing. However, it is clear that anyone who wins big money from online casinos is considered to be a possible scammer or criminal. At that point, you can forget about being treated like a customer or even a human being with legal rights. Since online casinos offer many games with high variance and a high return-to-player percentage compared to B&M casinos, many players will win just by being lucky for long stretches.

I had one casino that wrote me a threatening e-mail after I tried to cash out $5000 of winnings. They accused me of abusing their deposit match bonuses. I suspect this was just a standard boilerplate accusation of wrongdoing that they use to fire a shot over the bow of winning players. In fact, I only ever took one deposit match. This was the new-player sign-up deposit match which was much less than $5000. Since the terms of service say they can seize my balance if I do anything wrong, making false accusations of wrongdoing can have a chilling effect on winning players. I gave this site a significant amount of play on leaderboard competitions over a period of 12 months. I never tried to withdraw any funds until the site sent all their players an e-mail saying they were going to shut down the site in 45 days and reopen under a new skin. I knew from experience that it can take very long to get approved for my first withdrawal at most online sites. I wanted to do a test withdrawal. The $5K was a small fraction of my balance, but I should have tried a smaller withdrawal for my first attempt to withdraw. The $5K apparently caught the attention of a higher up who has an interest in the profit/loss of the site. Lower level employees probably handle routine smallish withdrawals and don't have a stake in whether I am a winner or loser. The employee who sent me the e-mail felt it necessary to lie for the purposes of financial gain for the site. (Legally, the deliberate misrepresentation of fact for the purpose of depriving someone of a valuable possession is fraud.) My accuser did approve the $5k withdrawal, but it took a long time before the money was actually disbursed. I requested a withdrawal of the remaining balance the day before the site did finally close down for good. At that point, they were probably processing so many withdrawals that they forgot to try and intimidate me or steal my funds.

I spent four months trying to make my first withdrawal from another site. The company kept rejecting my financial documents and IDs. This can be very time consuming. I submit a document and wait for days. I get a rejection e-mail. I resubmit and wait. I get a rejection based on a different reason. Many modern banks don't send paper statements and I had not used a paper check for one of my bank accounts in 20 years. They wanted a canceled check, so I had to buy replacement checks and wait for them to arrive. At another point, they complained that my PDF bank statement was redacted. Yes, the bank X'ed out all but the last four digits of my account number on the statement. Okay, technically the statement was redacted, but not by me. This lead to another e-mail exchange and more delays.

At the current time, one of my accounts with a very large balance has been suspended. This freezes my ability to play, use promos, or withdraw funds at that site. No explanation was given in the e-mail announcing the freeze. I am only told that the Term and Conditions give them a right to suspend my account pending a review. I have no idea of what they are reviewing. I suspect that they are upset that I hit a number of rather large slot jackpots lately. They stated that the review might take up to 10 calendar days. I am pretty sure that anything I say will be used against me, so I am not contacting them. I am just trying to be patient and wait out the suspension and see what happens. There is a lot of money at stake, including a very large amount of money that I deposited on the site. I do hope they realize I won by getting lucky while playing their games and promotions the way they were designed to be played.

Regulators in my state require that I exhaust all reasonable avenues to settle a dispute with an online casino before I even file a complaint. The problem is that any substantive interaction with an online site would reveal to them that I understand way too much about the math behind their games and promotions. As soon as they pigeonhole me as a thinking player, I am sure my play and activities will get even more unwanted attention. I have found subtle errors in online games that I would like to bring to the regulators attention. Frankly, I do not want to be identified by name when they contact casinos or game manufacturers about these issues. I have absorbed hundreds of dollars in losses because it is not worth it to get in their faces about it.
link to original post

Are we talking about state-regulated (and I use that term lightly) online casinos or offshore places? I know many of the offshore joints pull all the above BS listed.

Back when New Jersey first opened their market to legal online gambling I noticed they were using almost the exact same predatory terms and conditions. I believe it's the same bad actors who are still running the state-regulated casinos. It seems as if Gaming Control is only there to step in if someone has a legitimate complaint.

State-regulated places should be called out for this every chance we get.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
Mental
Joined: Dec 10, 2018
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 465
July 3rd, 2022 at 9:20:10 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

]Are we talking about state-regulated (and I use that term lightly) online casinos or offshore places? I know many of the offshore joints pull all the above BS listed.

Back when New Jersey first opened their market to legal online gambling I noticed they were using almost the exact same predatory terms and conditions. I believe it's the same bad actors who are still running the state-regulated casinos. It seems as if Gaming Control is only there to step in if someone has a legitimate complaint.

State-regulated places should be called out for this every chance we get.
link to original post



I only play in state regulated onshore casinos. I can't imagine where you go to resolve a dispute if you are playing offshore.

I do wish the online casinos would allow tax withholding on jackpots. I know of none that have a provision for this. Some sites have absolutely awful accounting software that won't even show you your year-to-date W-2G reports.
likiuer365
likiuer365
Joined: Aug 3, 2022
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  • Posts: 2
August 3rd, 2022 at 12:07:52 AM permalink
Yes, you're right about it. Can you pls give me suggestions about any casinos? Which [Spam link removed. Try that again and you're out of here ] is better nowadays? It seems you're experience one, so your suggestion matters a lot. Thanks!
Last edited by: OnceDear on Aug 3, 2022
Mental
Mental
Joined: Dec 10, 2018
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 465
August 3rd, 2022 at 5:52:54 AM permalink
Quote: likiuer365

Can you pls give me suggestions about any casinos?
link to original post



I don't know what games you like play or which state or country you live in. As is clear from my previous comments, I am avoiding all offshore operators and sticking with casinos within my US state. Every site has annoying problems. My recommendation is to try them all and to make a small withdrawal early on in the process so you can get approved for withdrawals. My mistake was letting balances grow too large before trying to take money out.
likiuer365
likiuer365
Joined: Aug 3, 2022
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August 4th, 2022 at 4:22:05 AM permalink
Basically, I'm from Korea, anyway I've found one and it's the best [Edit by Mod to delete attempted Spam Link. Try that again and you're banned] as per my knowledge and research. Thank you so much for your kind reply.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Aug 6, 2022
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
Joined: Feb 3, 2015
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  • Posts: 264
August 5th, 2022 at 9:01:31 PM permalink
I would need to see some evidence of domestic online casinos cheating or not paying to believe it. Most peopleís complaints start with them requiring docs when you try to cash out. People will comment that they take your money so readily but want all your info when you cash out. It can be a hassle when starting up but sending a license and checking statement is really not unreasonable. After the first place you just keep them saved on your computer. Most places are approving withdrawals in a day or 2 if not hours.

As far as promos and bonuses, itís usually pretty clear in the terms and conditions. I remember after playing at some regulated places I started checking out offshore places. They had all these terms in there that basically they were going to take your money if they felt like it. You donít have to worry about that at a domestic place. If they donít want you theyíll just send an email saying you are no longer eligible for promos. In sports, they will just limit you to $20.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 160
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August 6th, 2022 at 1:08:57 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I would need to see some evidence of domestic online casinos cheating or not paying to believe it. Most peopleís complaints start with them requiring docs when you try to cash out. People will comment that they take your money so readily but want all your info when you cash out. It can be a hassle when starting up but sending a license and checking statement is really not unreasonable. After the first place you just keep them saved on your computer. Most places are approving withdrawals in a day or 2 if not hours.

As far as promos and bonuses, itís usually pretty clear in the terms and conditions. I remember after playing at some regulated places I started checking out offshore places. They had all these terms in there that basically they were going to take your money if they felt like it. You donít have to worry about that at a domestic place. If they donít want you theyíll just send an email saying you are no longer eligible for promos. In sports, they will just limit you to $20.
link to original post

I don't understand what you mean by domestic? Are you talking about state-regulated casinos?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
Mental
Joined: Dec 10, 2018
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 465
August 6th, 2022 at 8:27:57 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I would need to see some evidence of domestic online casinos cheating or not paying to believe it. Most peopleís complaints start with them requiring docs when you try to cash out. People will comment that they take your money so readily but want all your info when you cash out. It can be a hassle when starting up but sending a license and checking statement is really not unreasonable. After the first place you just keep them saved on your computer. Most places are approving withdrawals in a day or 2 if not hours.

As far as promos and bonuses, itís usually pretty clear in the terms and conditions. I remember after playing at some regulated places I started checking out offshore places. They had all these terms in there that basically they were going to take your money if they felt like it. You donít have to worry about that at a domestic place. If they donít want you theyíll just send an email saying you are no longer eligible for promos. In sports, they will just limit you to $20.
link to original post



Not all members of WoV live in the USA. The term domestic means something different to them.

I don't disagree that the casinos need to carefully verify identities before sending a players money somewhere.

I have eventually succeeded in completing every withdrawal that I have requested. I have had to repeat several requests when too much time has elapsed before they paid me out. I have received e-mails (a) suspending my account for an investigation, (b) claiming that a jackpot from many weeks prior need 'verification' before I can be paid, (c) accusing me of abusing their promotions, (d) telling me my business is not wanted and that my balance would be returned to me.

I have definitely been cheated in one specific circumstance, but I believe that this was an error in the way the slot software handled an extremely rare circumstance. Not that I can replay slot games on many sites. I am 100% sure I was underpaid. I don't have evidence of any intentional systemic cheating. Did you know that the video poker game 'Chase the Royal' was programmed wrong? This was very harmful to the players who did not notice the error. However, it actually improved the RTP for players who adjusted their strategy to take the flaw into account. Clearly, this was due to sloppiness, not deliberate malfeasance.

I don't think a player who wins $1000 will have any issues. I just wonder what happens when you take out large amounts of money year after year. If you leave the balance online, it is a tempting target for some manager to try and seize to improve his quarterly win.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 160
  • Posts: 21285
August 6th, 2022 at 10:58:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: Sandybestdog

I would need to see some evidence of domestic online casinos cheating or not paying to believe it. Most peopleís complaints start with them requiring docs when you try to cash out. People will comment that they take your money so readily but want all your info when you cash out. It can be a hassle when starting up but sending a license and checking statement is really not unreasonable. After the first place you just keep them saved on your computer. Most places are approving withdrawals in a day or 2 if not hours.

As far as promos and bonuses, itís usually pretty clear in the terms and conditions. I remember after playing at some regulated places I started checking out offshore places. They had all these terms in there that basically they were going to take your money if they felt like it. You donít have to worry about that at a domestic place. If they donít want you theyíll just send an email saying you are no longer eligible for promos. In sports, they will just limit you to $20.
link to original post



Not all members of WoV live in the USA. The term domestic means something different to them.

I don't disagree that the casinos need to carefully verify identities before sending a players money somewhere.

I have eventually succeeded in completing every withdrawal that I have requested. I have had to repeat several requests when too much time has elapsed before they paid me out. I have received e-mails (a) suspending my account for an investigation, (b) claiming that a jackpot from many weeks prior need 'verification' before I can be paid, (c) accusing me of abusing their promotions, (d) telling me my business is not wanted and that my balance would be returned to me.

I have definitely been cheated in one specific circumstance, but I believe that this was an error in the way the slot software handled an extremely rare circumstance. Not that I can replay slot games on many sites. I am 100% sure I was underpaid. I don't have evidence of any intentional systemic cheating. Did you know that the video poker game 'Chase the Royal' was programmed wrong? This was very harmful to the players who did not notice the error. However, it actually improved the RTP for players who adjusted their strategy to take the flaw into account. Clearly, this was due to sloppiness, not deliberate malfeasance.

I don't think a player who wins $1000 will have any issues. I just wonder what happens when you take out large amounts of money year after year. If you leave the balance online, it is a tempting target for some manager to try and seize to improve his quarterly win.
link to original post

Yes, I do understand that. "State-regulated" As in regulated by some government type of gaming authorities? And not some bogus Curacao gaming license.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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