heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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November 12th, 2019 at 8:31:01 AM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

In fact, most games do not use RNG, but use PRNG (pseudorandom number generator). To create a PRNG we need an algorithm that will generate some sequence based on a certain formula. But such a sequence can be predicted.

And what is the question, do we need to create or hack a generator?



The question was more or less to specify what constitutes “fair”, to describe exactly when fair happens, and figure out if anything that happens after fair, is able to change what is considered fair to some people. My knowledge of math is very limited although I understand algorithms from coming from a programming background. I wanted to clarify what I have been researching pretty much.
heatmap
heatmap
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November 12th, 2019 at 8:37:23 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

(ii) There ARE compensated fruit machines in the UK.



Ding ding ding. This is the main reason I have been looking for a specific answer on this question. Every since I have learned of the existence of these things I have been trying to pinpoint how exactly they do this. Although I didnt have this in mind for this particular question, compensated slots are the main reason I want to know about this subject.
DRich
DRich
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November 12th, 2019 at 9:05:19 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

(i) I think some fruit machines have to continually ask for a random number until the next spin (or whatever) is pressed. Thus the RNG itself doesn't have to be that rigorous (but might as well be something like Mersenne as it's easy to code/copy these days).
(ii) There ARE compensated fruit machines in the UK. These tend to give fewer prizes when the machine has been paying out and more prizes when it hasn't. Typically these machines are in pubs for lower prizes (e.g. max £100). The ones in casinos, I think, have to be totally random. This topic was covered in the slot machines part of https://wizardofodds.com/blog/gambling-united-kingdom/ .



In Nevada it is required to continually cycle through the RNG. Most of the games that I worked on would generate the next random number every 10ms to 20ms. I believe the Aristocrat Mark VI machines were only cycling a couple times a second. That is how they were compromised by timing them. There are good articles out there about the Russians video those games on their phones to predict when jackpots would come up.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/
Living longer does not always infer +EV
Dobrij
Dobrij
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November 12th, 2019 at 9:16:25 AM permalink
If the task is to parse the algorithm of an existing game, if you need to buy a machine, parse the details and study. This is if you do not have friends in the factory of the manufacturer : )

If this is an online game, then first you need to check the level of encryption

You can find vulnerability almost everywhere, the question is whether it will pay off, and this is a criminal offense.
heatmap
heatmap
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November 12th, 2019 at 9:33:07 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

In Nevada it is required to continually cycle through the RNG. Most of the games that I worked on would generate the next random number every 10ms to 20ms. I believe the Aristocrat Mark VI machines were only cycling a couple times a second. That is how they were compromised by timing them. There are good articles out there about the Russians video those games on their phones to predict when jackpots would come up.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/



i have posted this link in my "6 card dealer bluff" thread but its highly relevant

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10678382.pdf

Long story short this stuff has been happening longer than I have imagined
tringlomane
tringlomane
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November 12th, 2019 at 2:04:54 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Ding ding ding. This is the main reason I have been looking for a specific answer on this question. Every since I have learned of the existence of these things I have been trying to pinpoint how exactly they do this. Although I didnt have this in mind for this particular question, compensated slots are the main reason I want to know about this subject.



In the US, these "compensated slots" are illegal in every jurisdiction to my knowledge. But could those breaking the law program and offer these games? Absolutely. That's why a regulatory framework is important, imo.

Quote: DRich

In Nevada it is required to continually cycle through the RNG. Most of the games that I worked on would generate the next random number every 10ms to 20ms. I believe the Aristocrat Mark VI machines were only cycling a couple times a second. That is how they were compromised by timing them. There are good articles out there about the Russians video those games on their phones to predict when jackpots would come up.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/



Nevada law requires a minimum of 100 cycles a second now. So hopefully you're using 10ms or less...

Technical Standard #1 Sec. 1.400 2. (b)

(b) Cycle the RNG at a minimum average rate of 100Hz (100 times per second)

Adopted Feb. 2016

In the same section,

6. Additionally, video poker games must not determine replacement cards prior to the player
selecting hold cards and initiating a draw.

https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2919 (PDF file)
EVBandit
EVBandit
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November 12th, 2019 at 2:38:52 PM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

In fact, most games do not use RNG, but use PRNG (pseudorandom number generator). To create a PRNG we need an algorithm that will generate some sequence based on a certain formula. But such a sequence can be predicted.

And what is the question, do we need to create or hack a generator?



As a game inventor who took a blueprint of a patent to seeing the demo model at the Las Vegas convention, I was lucky to be involved in many steps along the process. The gaming manufacturer was nice enough to share much of their inner workings.

We don’t have a RNG, we have PRNG, e.g. something that simulates a RNG. We have robust PRNG’s and we have weak PRNG’s used on old slot machines that can be beaten. You can search the internet for a slot certain manufacturer where a “Russian” reverse engineered certain slot machines and developed an app to predict winning hits based on previous outcomes. For some reason, the link to the article is not attaching.

I studied inferential statistics at the graduate level and we don’t test for “randomness” per se but instead test for “non-random” events. It’s really hard to model randomness (since it can be anything), but it’s much easier to detect non-randomness.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 12th, 2019 at 2:44:08 PM permalink
Quote: EVBandit

We have robust PRNG’s and we have weak PRNG’s used on old slot machines that can be beaten.

What about legally?

And to take that one step further, how possible or probable would it be for someone to take advantage of some offshore online casino using the current computer technology that's out there?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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November 12th, 2019 at 7:39:26 PM permalink
Quote: EVBandit

As a game inventor who took a blueprint of a patent to seeing the demo model at the Las Vegas convention, I was lucky to be involved in many steps along the process. The gaming manufacturer was nice enough to share much of their inner workings.

We don’t have a RNG, we have PRNG, e.g. something that simulates a RNG. We have robust PRNG’s and we have weak PRNG’s used on old slot machines that can be beaten. You can search the internet for a slot certain manufacturer where a “Russian” reverse engineered certain slot machines and developed an app to predict winning hits based on previous outcomes. For some reason, the link to the article is not attaching.

I studied inferential statistics at the graduate level and we don’t test for “randomness” per se but instead test for “non-random” events. It’s really hard to model randomness (since it can be anything), but it’s much easier to detect non-randomness.

There is some post amount needed for links I think. We all know about the old Aristocrats, Russians, it has been discussed, so don't worry.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
loldongs
loldongs
Joined: May 9, 2014
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November 15th, 2019 at 3:22:15 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Nevada law requires a minimum of 100 cycles a second now. So hopefully you're using 10ms or less...

Technical Standard #1 Sec. 1.400 2. (b)

(b) Cycle the RNG at a minimum average rate of 100Hz (100 times per second)

Adopted Feb. 2016

In the same section,

6. Additionally, video poker games must not determine replacement cards prior to the player
selecting hold cards and initiating a draw.

https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2919 (PDF file)



Given that I've occasionally noticed a fair amount of noticeable display/speed glitches in the AVP platform version of IGTs Game King video poker, as well as in ten-play versions on older 044-chassis games, I think I'm going to take a closer look at disassembly of this software platform. I know MAME has emulation support for older 3802/3902 IGT game series, but I don't think there's any public API for 044 or AVP games -- if anyone has resources for debug/development, hit my PMs please.

The real question is how does the game logic use the PRNG values to determine the output state, as hitting a 1/47 button press with 10-20ms of accuracy to exploit a timing glitch (drawing four to a royal, or 3AWAK) should be easily doable by a human with no external assistance -- so, legally exploitable and able to be used in a live casino.

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