4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 8th, 2013 at 5:33:26 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist


And calling me out of touch with online gaming will no doubt elicit chuckles from those who know what I do for a living.



Oh NoÖ. Not just another guys unbiased opinions making money off online casinos. ďSay it ainít so MathextremistĒ.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 8th, 2013 at 9:12:45 PM permalink
never mind
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
binary128
binary128
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October 9th, 2013 at 5:00:03 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

You're essentially saying that you believe none of the regulators of online real-money gambling are "doing their jobs and could be trusted." By proxy, then, you're indicting the governments of at least four sovereign nations -- including Canada -- as being corrupt liars.


I think we'd all have to agree that the recent issue with Gibraltar and the BetFred/Finsoft/Spielo G2 mess did some serious damage to the credibility of the online regulatory agencies. In my opinion, the Casinomeister posts made by Gibraltar's Gambling Commissioner displayed, among several things, a staggering level of incompetence in knowing what they are supposed to be doing, and how they are supposed to be doing it.

Prior to this episode they were among the top 3 jurisdictions, along with Alderney and the Isle of Man. (Although Alderney's reputation was, again IMO, hit pretty hard, not so much by the content of the Full Tilt Poker mess but by its sheer magnitude.)

All that aside:

Quote: 4ofaKind

Show me PROOF of what online casinos are using???????


4ofaKind, I again ask - What experiment would you define whose results would provide such proof?

Chris
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 10th, 2013 at 3:18:33 AM permalink
Quote: binary128



4ofaKind, I again ask - What experiment would you define whose results would provide such proof?

Chris



@Chris

Itís not about any special experiments that could prove and protect the online players from criminals. All software tests and experiments are supposed to be preformed and approved by regulators prior to any gambling launch being offered to the publics.

Over the years weíve witnessed endless serious criminal issues from endless corrupt online operators and software providers from every form of gambling presently being offered online. I could understand these issues popping up during the infant stages of online gaming simply because it was a new frontier. But 15 or whatever years after there should be no reason why over and over and over again and still happening today we have to be subjected to exposed rigged software being used in all its different forms. Players also still today are having their winnings and deposits stolen over and over and over again in all the different forms operators get to use including operators just packing up and departing with all players balances.

Itís obvious when games are being offered online all games are controlled by pre-programmed software which could and will always be pre-programmed to satisfy whatever hold the operators prefer as long as it's an authorized and legal setting. Itís up to the operators to be competitive with their pre-determined game settings. The entire computer controlled casino operatorís costs to operate and profit come from pre-programmed software with no direct human interaction with the player. Of course sports betting would be excluded and unfortunately we canít say the same for online poker since history speaks for itself.

Excluding the possibilities of a new operator obtaining a pre-arranged phony Letter of Certification certificate to satisfy alleged regulators requirements since they donít have testing facilities of their own, and everything is on the up and up prior to launch; what regulated software security is in place after launch?

How do the regulators monitor the softwareís performance and protect it from tampering after launch?

Do the operators need to contact the regulator prior to changing game pay-back settings?

Do the regulators monitor, confirm, record, reseal, these type of changes or monitor gaming software up-dates that are endlessly taking place.

Why aren't endless updates specifying exactly what's being updated?

Where could I review monthly audited casino in and hold financial reports for all the games approved in their jurisdictions?

Are online casino operators able to simply make a call or drop an e-mail to their provider, or simply enter the software with approved access and just click the mouse and puff, new TRTP on the fly with no concerns of the regulator? I know land based can't change software while a player is playing the game or at least for five minutes after the player stopped or without pre-approved notification to the regulator.

Whatís the minimum TRTP settings authorized in that jurisdiction?

Are employees or owners of software providers allowed to operate online casinos? I know of a casino operator who was once an employee of a software provider operating a online casino along with 3 other fellow software employees also operating different casinos but all previously employed by the same software provider and operating these casinos with in fact the same software company they worked for. (talk about collusion potential) I exposed one by mistake online and within months that casino was shut down from that software provider. I have no idea what happened to that person or where he is now.

These are just a handful of unanswered questions I canít get replies to.

ClassI, ClassII, ClassIII, ClassIV, ClassV, I donít give a shit what class any software is thatís being used online or on land. The whole idea of this thread was to expose some of the different versions available to operators.

With todayís technology and absolutely zero oversight by regulators after launch, and nothing more then a simple download that could alter any pre-approved game; convince me why I should trust you or anyone else in this confirmed crooked industry.

I need to trust the regulators who should be willing and able to prove to me that I could trust them and assure me who has a license in their jurisdiction should also be trusted. Not because the operators are just good honest guys or gals but because they have no choice but to comply with their regulations that are proven to be seriously enforced protecting all of us from cheating.

Rogue operators and software providers are pasted all over the internet warning people to stay away from them. If regulators were doing half of what they need to be doing this wouldn't be necessary. This issue by itself should tell everyone how irresponsible and lackadaisical online regulators are and how little is being done if anything at all. Then when proof of foul play is exposed and brought to the regulators attention they have the balls to say you were suppose to lose anyway. Now you want to tell me the software is fair, please, give me a fn break.

Please donít use the regulators response to the poker scandals as an example. If that wasnít blasted all over the media all over the world not one single fn thing would have been done.

I have no faith in any online regulators still today and certainly no faith in bullshit artists making money off online casinos trying to convince me of otherwise in chat rooms, and at the same time trying to convince others who are reading this stuff how safe and honest everything is online with all their bullshit detour tactics, never exposing confirmed facts. This comment is not directed at you personally at all Chris. But I want a regulator to convince me to trust you.

I played online video poker for 8 years or so and was completely satisfied even with the losses I accumulated. After the UIGEA things changed quickly but I still gave it 3 or 4 more years before becoming convinced that video poker is not being randomly dealt and the game was altered. How itís being done Iím not sure but itís definitely being done. With today's technology it obviously could be done easily with a simple click of the mouse.

I went to A.C. last Saturday and played in a poker tournament. Eight hours later and being eliminated I had to wait for my friend who was still in it. I played video poker the whole time waiting and lost over 3K. I didnít feel cheated at all and took my lumps gracefully knowing for certain I was getting a fair game and was just unlucky.

Until online regulators can convince me to feel the same way which they refuse to do, Iím convinced online video poker cheating is taking place and refuse to play online. If I can't trust the regulator I'm certainly not going to trust any operator or software provider. I'm definitely not going to listen too or believe any side-stepping bullshitter's making money off online casinos in chat rooms. Maybe if these money hungry parasites stood up for what's fair and stopped convincing suckers to deposit who are just trying to have a good time with unsubstantiated misleading bullshit, online gambling good become a great place to play.

There's a lot of innocent suckers being taken advantage of online and they don't even realize it, and nothing is being done to fix it.

I don't need proof to confirm video poker is being dealt unfair online. I'm already convinced playing this game most of my adult life. (61 yrs.old now) I certainly don't plan on investing 3 million dollars recording every hand so the Wizard could just add another rogue casino or software provider to his rogue or blacklist.

Regulators need to prove to me it's fair and protected by them to stay that way before they take anymore of my money. Anyone out there with a brain should also demand the same thing.

(edited 10/11/ to add additional comments)
binary128
binary128
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October 13th, 2013 at 2:23:14 PM permalink
4ofaKind, I feel compelled to say that, on the whole, that was a pretty good post. I can argue with some of it. But I can't argue with the fact that, over the years:

1. We have seen unarguable proof of corrupt software providers, corrupt casino operators, corrupt casino affiliates and corrupt gambling jurisdictional agencies.

2. We have seen unarguable proof of incompetent software providers, incompetent casino operators, incompetent casino affiliates and incompetent gambling jurisdictional agencies.

Both corruption and incompetence have usually resulted in the same thing - money taken from a Player's pocket. Sometimes the money is put back. All too often it is not.

Obviously, if some are corrupt and/or incompetent it does not necessarily follow that all are corrupt and/or incompetent. A valid point - how can you tell the difference?

Someone would need to attach bots to the games ("real play" and "free play") and collect complete data on a large sample size. Somebody was doing that, and publishing data in Casinomeister, but they, and their data, seem to have gone silent. I don't know - maybe the person posting the data was full of crap. But it sure as hell was interesting data. (I've occasionally wondered why they just seem to have disappeared.)

Anyway, I felt compelled to respond to your post in some fashion.

Chris
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 13th, 2013 at 6:03:41 PM permalink
Quote: binary128


Obviously, if some are corrupt and/or incompetent it does not necessarily follow that all are corrupt and/or incompetent. A valid point - how can you tell the difference?

Someone would need to attach bots to the games ("real play" and "free play") and collect complete data on a large sample size.

Chris



This is the crux of the entire argument.

The only way foul play is exposed online was usually from a savory player. Itís insane to expect a player to hook up bots recording data and however much money it would cost to prove foul play. Besides, for what reason? So a couple of willing web sites could just add them onto the ever growing black-list. Yet, they'll always remain operating and screwing the endless newbies.

Online regulators made it perfectly clear their not concerned about foul play or anything else for that matter. Wasnít that personally demonstrated to you when you were forced to make a robbed player right (I think the amount was like 60K) instead of the rogue operator of your software being forced too from the regulator? At least you tossed this operator to the curb from ever using your software again. What exactly was the regulators involvement with this issue? What consequences did the operator suffer for his theft of the player from the regulator? Can this operator just move on to another software provider and different regulator unchecked?

You can't help but suspect there has to be something in it for the present online regulators ($$$$) in order for them to operate the way they are. From a gaming regulators point of view it has to be obvious that no one could possibly be this stupid excepting everything that actually is taking place in front of everyone.

Besides, who needs a thousand online casinos to choose from? Real regulation would ween that number down in a hurry, and leave only the financially capable still standing that don't need to use foul tactics to survive.

Do online players really need to be bribed by web-sites holding their members hostage to sign up to casinos through their web-sites simply so they'll have someone to moderate on the members behalf if they have an issue. Do you realize how sad that whole premise is in the first place? Then the moderation process when a problem arrives is a colluded Kangaroo Court.

Why does this bullshit even exist? ..... IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL REGULATION?

I don't know about you, but I certainly would prefer a regulator making the final decision and expect criminal charges brought against any player proven to be tampering with pre-programmed software or falsifying documents.

The online gambling industry had revenue of over 33 billion dollars in 2012..

How many of those billions of dollars were actually retained with all the different confirmed forms of foul play, corruption, and incompetence being used by the casinos, affiliates, and web-sites that willingly promote them?

Why do the honest and competent operators stand for corrupt and incompetent operators who endlessly pollute the waters they swim in while using the same software their using? Why donít they all stand tall and insist that regulators take a stand and stop it? Personally, I believe the reason why no stance is taken from the honest operators side is simple. The potential to make far more money faster is to leave everything just the way it is. Being able to operate an online casino with the cockpit and all the controls is a lot cheaper and simpler then absorbing the costs and following the demands of serious regulation.

I read a lot of the regulations in place for interactive gaming in Nevada. It intertwines with already land based regulations, but everything you want to know is there. Any time I had a question my e-mail was answered the next day along with links to my answers. http://gaming.nv.gov/gcsearch.aspx?q=interactive%2520gambling

Of course having real regulation cost lots of money. It will obviously come from the players but would also lower the profits for operators if they are forced to be legitimately competitive. I'm certain most players would be happy paying their share for good regulation when compared to it being stolen from them and others.

Just the licensing fees in Nevada are ten times the fees when compared to present online regulators fees.

After reading regulations in Nevada, the amount of operations and monitoring requirements required by the regulators; I would bet the entire present online industryís software would have to be re-tooled to accommodate their required regulations.

With confirmed real online regulation there would be no need to worry about corrupt or incompetent operators. Anyone that randomly decides to gamble online wouldnít need to know the tricks of the trade prior since they would have no fear of getting robbed in the first place. Most players today donít learn the tricks of the trade till they get screwed and start looking around. Even then their still subject to potential foul play. Online gaming history tells the whole story if you know where to look. Obviously most don't or take a multi-billion industry for granted thinking there's no way it could be the way it really is.

The only list of rogue operators and software providers that could be viewed should be on the regulators web site, since they would be banned from ever operating again.

Terms and conditions are written by the regulators. Any additional rules written by a casino need regulators approval.

You have a problem? Thereís only one place to goÖ.. The Regulator.

The only decisions any online player should have to consider should only be the same decisions they make when choosing where their going to play when choosing a land based casino. Like, confirmed regulations that are in place, the types of games being used, marketing offers, known house hold being monthly published, reputations, etc. The players are available for the taking; let the operators worry about being competitive legitimately.

Nevada obviously built the model for land based casinos and are now obviously doing the same for interactive gaming.

I donít think present online regulators could reverse things at this stage, nor do I think they want or even care to. One thing some online regulators do well is spend money setting up some promising looking Web Sites.

Iíve been trying to stay current with what the UK is preparing to do with online regulation, but so far it just seems their main concern is to get their hands into the kettle, although some safety is being considered.

Weíll have to wait and see what happens there, but my guess is the only chance for honest change (force ably enforced) at this stage is the USA involvement.

I believe if Nevada gets to open up to the rest of the world, then foreign online regulators would be forced to take serious action or eventually evaporate.

Never lose sight why so many issues and illegal activities are taking place in today's present online gaming environment.

Simply because they can.

(edited 10/15 - always adding more comments)
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 17th, 2013 at 9:07:32 AM permalink
Got this link from a poster (Richas) at C.M. and based on his past postings there he appeared to be one of the only level headed guys at that site that also recognized the need for serious regulation.

The link below takes you to the UK gaming commission site.

Be certain to also click onto the link at this site "Machine testing strategy consultation" - October 2013

Gets into lots of new ideas for future required testing and the presently lack of.

Here's a couple of the quotes:

"There have been a number of instances where category B3 slot game titles have been released into the market where variants of the game had not undergone any external testing, and only the primary game itself had been tested. It is considered that where variants of a game title are not tested there is a risk that the game will not perform as intended and could adversely affect the player, and in
particular instances where the RTP is below that expected due to incorrect game maths."

"A platform provider (supplier) modified the architecture of their hardware platform, which necessitated a change to the design of the game software which had been supplied by a third party manufacturer. The game software was not adequately tested to
ensure that it operated as designed when integrated into the hardware platform (integration testing), and it subsequently failed to operate as intended in terms of RTP performance."

"One of the significant contributory factors, in the Commissionís view, which resulted in the problem arising was the failure by any party to ensure that the game had undergone the necessary integration tests prior to game release. Although contractual arrangements were in place setting out which party had responsibility to carry out integration testing, as required by the Commissionís testing strategy, the working practices of both the software manufacturer and platform provider did not follow
that arrangement."

I could add a lot more but just click and read if your interested.


http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/research__consultations/consultations/open_consultations/machine_testing_strategy_con2.aspx
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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November 4th, 2013 at 7:16:49 PM permalink
Interactive gaming systems (online casinos) in Nevada are considered just another gaming device. The already in place Nevada regulations for gaming devices are applied. Of course several new regulations have been applied for interactive gaming. I picked just a few of the important ones out not to over bore anyone.

Below are some of the requirements for both land based and online games that simulate live games, including video poker.


4.040 Minimum standards for gaming devices. All gaming devices submitted for approval:
(a) Each possible permutation or combination of game elements which produce winning or losing game outcomes must be available for random selection at the initiation of each play.
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play.
3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome. After selection of the game outcome, the gaming device must not make a variable secondary decision which affects the result shown to the player.


Below are a couple of safety requirements that are in place for online gaming.


Interactive Gaming Systems and Associated Equipment
(Rev. 1/27/2012)
6.140 Control program requirements for interactive gaming systems.
1. Any software or control programs used in the determination of win or loss, or performing other critical functions such as the storage of game session and player session data must reside within the server portion of the interactive gaming system and not within any authorized player software or authorized player system.
2. All control programs residing on the interactive gaming system must be authenticated prior to execution using a means approved by the chairman.
3. Interactive gaming systems must be capable of verifying that all control programs contained on the interactive gaming system are authentic copies of approved components of the interactive gaming system automatically, at least once every 24 hours, and on demand using a method approved by the chairman.


Keep in mind that all pre-existing land regulations in Nevada are also required for online gaming along with the already existing protocol that would require any software or hardware changes. Online casino in and hold financials are published monthly and available for view at the regulators site.

Also, slot games in Nevada can have a legal TRTP setting as low as 75%. Obviously, most know they are in the 90ís simply by viewing monthly statistics. If casino operators want to be competitive they have no choice. Theyíll settle for 5 to 10 cents on the dollar but rest assured they would prefer the whole 25 cents if they could get away with it; but they canít because we know for fact what their making because the regulator tells us every month. Not like present online casinos who are telling you what their settings are simply by typing it on their own web-sites, or promoters with web-sites who themselves have no fn idea for sure what any setting being used online might be.

I don't have any faith in the he said, she said, he said, bullshit, especially when it comes to gambling blindly.
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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November 10th, 2013 at 1:27:41 AM permalink
With all of the well documented threads discussing facts and assumptions of what is or what might be taking place when gambling games are being offered online, where are all the people that are involved and responsible for the 24/7 operation?

Why after 15 years you couldnít find a single thread where a regulator or a software provider made an appearance explaining and proving exactly why online gaming software canít be altered after an approved launch?
binary128
binary128
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November 10th, 2013 at 3:02:09 PM permalink
4ofaKind,

First of all, thanks for the following info:

Quote: 4ofaKind

Interactive Gaming Systems and Associated Equipment (Rev. 1/27/2012)

6.140 Control program requirements for interactive gaming systems.

1. Any software or control programs used in the determination of win or loss, or performing other critical functions such as the storage of game session and player session data must reside within the server portion of the interactive gaming system and not within any authorized player software or authorized player system.

2. All control programs residing on the interactive gaming system must be authenticated prior to execution using a means approved by the chairman.

3. Interactive gaming systems must be capable of verifying that all control programs contained on the interactive gaming system are authentic copies of approved components of the interactive gaming system automatically, at least once every 24 hours, and on demand using a method approved by the chairman.


Because we're a no-download product, item 1 above is not an issue for us. This is how we've always built all of our games.

I also think that our current practices and certifications have us covered for item 2.

Item 3 is just going to be a PITA, however, and for a number of "non nefarious" reasons. One simple example (I could provide a dozen more right off the top of my head):

Let's say that we have an ASP file on the server that uses VBScript, and this file contains some amount, however small, of game control logic. Let's say that this file, once approved, is given an ID from some Secure Hash Algorithm (SHA). That means that if I later want to go into this file and simply add a comment I can't do it without resubmitting the file for approval and getting a new SHA ID.

So, I'm not going to add that comment, which is a problem because there must have been some good reason why I felt it necessary to consider adding it to the file in the first place.

And this simple example is extremely trivial in the grand scheme of a complex, high transaction rate, high (very high) security client/server application like an online casino.

I'm constantly revisiting areas of our application and considering possibilities for improvement. On average it takes our server code about 20 milliseconds to turn around a game request. If I shave 1 millisecond off a 20-millisecond process, I just increased our server capacity by 5%. And these are changes that both the Players and I want to see implemented! (Consider the constant Player complaint of slow game response time in online Tournaments.)

Hell, I made 2 changes to a dozen VBScript files TODAY because those changes represented a very small but nonetheless worthwhile enhancement to the security system. I make hundreds of changes of this nature, affecting thousands of SHA ID files, every year, every single year!

I understand - all of this is NOT the Player's problem. But it is MY problem, and it is NOT a trivial one for me to deal with - it is a big problem for me to deal with.

I realize that we need to, and thus are going to, deal with it. But it is simply going to suck. I know that ultimately I am not going to do things that I would otherwise do because the PITA factor of a new SHA ID outweighs the "very small but nonetheless worthwhile" value of the change.

Chris

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