BitCoin
Quote: AxelWolf1 Bitcoin equals
41,881.40 United States Dollar
Still waiting for the big crash like a few people keep predicting.
As I posted at the time, the guy I relied on to make my sub30,000 bet also called a quick rebound to $43,000.
So it will be treated like a legit stock? Not not only might it be an actual currency, but it will also be treated as a stock? One might wonder if regulations will help BTC and other cryptocurrencies seem like a legitimate viable option. I have no idea why the government would get involved with this so-called beanie baby craze.Quote: billryanHolders of bitcoin should be very apprehensive about the changes in the new infrastructure bill Congress seems set to pass. Cryptocurrencies will be treated similar to stocks where a ledger of every transaction will be kept and reported. Seems like the government is counting on collecting quite a bit of tax revenue off you guys in order to pay for this new spending.
https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2021/crypto-tax-laws-slipped-into-1t-infrastructure-bill/
No one cared when people sold a BT for $50 that they'd paid $5 for, but if you sell the same BT for $40,000 you owe a serious chunk of money. Best bet would seem to be if the IRS will treat the sales as capital gains instead of ordinary income.
Selling even a few BT and not reporting the income would be serious enough tax evasion that you could be looking at federal prison time.
Bitcoin is a trillion dollar business. No business that large will escape government scrutiny.
Quote: billryanI'm of the opinion that the vast majority of bitcoin holders bought their holdings never thinking they would have to pay taxes on it. If this legislation passes and there is a date for the new regulations to take effect, we should see a large selloff. There may be buyers for the bitcoin but I think the number of bitcoin holders will shrink substantially.
And once all those gambling folk find out they have to pay taxes on their wins that's the end of gambling as well... Not!
thx. Technically already the case, AIUI. Just barely enforced yet.Quote: billryanHolders of bitcoin should be very apprehensive about the changes in the new infrastructure bill Congress seems set to pass. Cryptocurrencies will be treated similar to stocks where a ledger of every transaction will be kept and reported. Seems like the government is counting on collecting quite a bit of tax revenue off you guys in order to pay for this new spending.
https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2021/crypto-tax-laws-slipped-into-1t-infrastructure-bill/
Read that carefully. As someone keeps saying, each bitcoin is individually marked and a record of every transaction is kept. This isn't just about future transactions, this gives them the authority to dig in to the past. Just because you weren't required to report the income doesn't mean you don't owe taxes on it.
It's not yet the law, and may never be but how long will it be before a government goes further and starts to seize them?
So now it's taxation and possibly forfeiture spelling doom.
One wonders why he wants it to fail so badly?
I've warned from the start that governments were going to crack down on these crypto/pseudo currencies. Now the first step in the Government regulating them has been introduced into law.
Some people think bitcoin is the next Amazon. I'm pretty sure it's the next myspace, or maybe the next AOL. Early pioneers in new fields that proved to be unsustainable.
Quote: billryanI took you off ignore a few days go and decided it was simply not to respond to you but posting why I didn't talk about a proposal that just became public before it became public makes me question my decision.
I've warned from the start that governments were going to crack down on these crypto/pseudo currencies. Now the first step in the Government regulating them has been introduced into law.
Some people think bitcoin is the next Amazon. I'm pretty sure it's the next myspace, or maybe the next AOL. Early pioneers in new fields that proved to be unsustainable.
Welcome back to Ozland, Bill.
I actually agree the government is going to regulate crypto. They want their cut of the profits as well.
You bring up Amazon. Up until about a year or two ago, there was no sales tax being collected. The government changed that.
Amazon didn't die. People just grumbled and accepted the new price of doing business (there should have been an Amazon truck filled with tea thrown into Boston Harbor? No such luck)
I actually didn't buy any Bitcoin. I invested in other Crypto. One is INX, the first SEC approved crypto currency. I invested in that one because I agree with you. It's going to get regulated very quickly and INX is going the regulated route
But obviously I disagree that once regulated the whole crypto currency thing will implode.
But those are future predictions. We will find out who is correct on that measure soon enough.
EDIT: You also mentioned AOL and Myspace. First, they both are still around although ghosts of their former majesty. Second, they didn't fall from grace because of government or taxation. But due to competition in the field.
How do they seize them if you dont keep them on an exchange?Quote: billryan"Under the proposed measure, the IRS would be empowered to go after taxes owed that the government hadn't known about since the transactions weren’t required to be reported. The Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that the new rules could bring in some $28 billion over 10 years."
Read that carefully. As someone keeps saying, each bitcoin is individually marked and a record of every transaction is kept. This isn't just about future transactions, this gives them the authority to dig in to the past. Just because you weren't required to report the income doesn't mean you don't owe taxes on it.
It's not yet the law, and may never be but how long will it be before a government goes further and starts to seize them?
Quote: darkozAnd once all those gambling folk find out they have to pay taxes on their wins that's the end of gambling as well... Not!
i can't wait for the day that when you hit the collect button on a slot machine that it just deducts 25% automatic withholding. the player would then have to file with the iRs to get back if they were actually a loser on the day.
Quote: AxelWolfHow do they seize them if you dont keep them on an exchange?
If they shut down all the exchanges until they were to meet the new regulations, what do you have? Do you have a physical anything? As far as I can figure, the only thing bitcoin had going for it was the anonymity it provided the holder, but that will go away. Possibly sooner than later.
Quote: DRichi can't wait for the day that when you hit the collect button on a slot machine that it just deducts 25% automatic withholding. the player would then have to file with the iRs to get back if they were actually a loser on the day.
The government collects almost all the taxes due on stock sales. Is it that stockholders are more honest than gamblers or is it that stocks are more regulated?
Quote: DRichi can't wait for the day that when you hit the collect button on a slot machine that it just deducts 25% automatic withholding. the player would then have to file with the iRs to get back if they were actually a loser on the day.
I'm already there.
I ask for taxes withheld from every jackpot I win.
Quote: darkozI'm already there.
I ask for taxes withheld from every jackpot I win.
that is smart but i am talking about any cashout at all. They will eventually put the onus on the player to prove losses to get back what is rightfully their's.
You put in a $20 cashout at $30 and the ticket prints out for $23 telling you that $7 is going to the IRS.
And that my friend, is the beauty of Bitcoin, you can use your bitcoin( A currency, yea, I said it, it's a currency) across the world, and no one or multiple governments can regulate that. It not being something physical is a good thing, since one only needs to remember 12 simple words in order to have it and use it whenever or wherever you want. No one can take it from you unless you give them your 12-24 words.Quote: billryanIf they shut down all the exchanges until they were to meet the new regulations, what do you have? Do you have a physical anything? As far as I can figure, the only thing bitcoin had going for it was the anonymity it provided the holder, but that will go away. Possibly sooner than later.
Quote: AxelWolfAnd that my friend, is the beauty of Bitcoin, you can use your bitcoin( A currency, yea, I said it, it's a currency) across the world, and no one or multiple governments can regulate that. It not being something physical is a good thing, since one only needs to remember 12 simple words in order to have it and use it whenever or wherever you want. No one can take it from you unless you give them your 12-24 words.
I fear it will be closer to what Bill thinks Axel.
Yes, you are correct they can't take it away from you but they can deny access.
Remember Black Friday for Online Poker (or Black Tuesday or whatever day it was)?
They can simply pass a law that using an exchange is illegal. And shut off access from anywhere in the continental USA.
Not saying it will happen but it is possible IMO.
Quote: AxelWolfAnd that my friend, is the beauty of Bitcoin, you can use your bitcoin( A currency, yea, I said it, it's a currency) across the world, and no one or multiple governments can regulate that. It not being something physical is a good thing, since one only needs to remember 12 simple words in order to have it and use it whenever or wherever you want. No one can take it from you unless you give them your 12-24 words.
No government can seize the individual coin but they can seize the exchanges, and they can make it illegal to use them . NY State is already talking about banning people from mining them.
The Senate bill added new reporting rules for crypto trading firms and brokers.
The estimated $28 billion in new taxes would help fund President Joe Biden's infrastructure package.
See more stories on Insider's business page.
Cryptocurrency organizations on Friday asked Congress to reconsider language in the Senate's infrastructure bill that posed an "imminent threat" to the industry.
President Joe Biden's $1.2 trillion infrastructure package, which includes hundreds of billions in funding for roads, railways, and broadband access, would be partly financed by increasing revenue from taxes on cryptocurrencies, according to The White House.
The Senate bill last week added new rules for crypto trading firms and brokers. They'd have to report additional information about some transactions, including those over $10,000.
The updates could bring in about $28 billion in new tax revenue in its first decade, Bloomberg News and The New York Times reported.
The Blockchain Association on Friday posted an open letter, saying: "What Congress is considering with this measure is not a new tax on the cryptocurrency industry. Instead, it puts new reporting requirements on individual players in the industry who have no way to comply."
The letter said the provision amounted to "an imminent threat to the budding crypto industry here in America."
Kristin Smith, the association's executive director, said in a Thursday statement that the crypto industry was "eager" to see updated guidance for exchanges' reporting to the IRS. But the bill's language was "hastily drafted," she said.
Jerry Brito, executive director of the Coin Center thinktank, said the draft language was "so broad" that it would add new reporting for many organizations that "have no visibility into users' transactions."
Smith added: "So not only will these types of reporting requirements push businesses and jobs overseas - ceding American leadership in the crypto space to our international competitors - it won't collect the $28 billion Congress thinks they'll bring in."
And places like Texas are welcoming people who want to mine them.Quote: billryanNo government can seize the individual coin but they can seize the exchanges, and they can make it illegal to use them . NY State is already talking about banning people from mining them.
Once again, you do not need an exchange to use Bitcoin, and only individual governments can make specific laws targeting Bitcoin. Obviously, any restrictions the United States puts on bitcoin could hurt the current value, that doesn't mean it still won't be useful, have value, and be used as a currency.
Take a look at online casinos and the marijuana industry. At one time, illegal and or restricted, and yet they never went away. If you look at both of those things today, they are thriving.
It's just a way of making it looks like the books will balance. More likely to make $28B for the accounting industry and nothing much for the IRSQuote: billryanThe estimated $28 billion in new taxes would help fund President Joe Biden's infrastructure package....
The updates could bring in about $28 billion in new tax revenue in its first decade....
...
Smith added: "So not only will these types of reporting requirements push businesses and jobs overseas - ceding American leadership in the crypto space to our international competitors - it won't collect the $28 billion Congress thinks they'll bring in."
Quote: AxelWolfAnd places like Texas are welcoming people who want to mine them.
Once again, you do not need an exchange to use Bitcoin, and only individual governments can make specific laws targeting Bitcoin. Obviously, any restrictions the United States puts on bitcoin could hurt the current value, that doesn't mean it still won't be useful, have value, and be used as a currency.
Take a look at online casinos and the marijuana industry. At one time, illegal and or restricted, and yet they never went away. If you look at both of those things today, they are thriving.
You are making valid arguments that bitcoin may exist ten years from now. I don't care if it exists, all I care about is is it a good investment. I've yet to see anyone try to explain why bitcoins price is going to go up ten per cent a year for the next five years. Price is down substantially , volume is down, even internet searches are down. Somebody made a big deal about 100,000 vendors accepting it, which sounds nice until you know that Visa is in 100X more places. As more cryptos enter the market, and some of them will be backed by very heavy hitter, will bitcoin be able to keep its market share? So far, it hasn't.
Quote: OnceDearIt's just a way of making it looks like the books will balance. More likely to make $28B for the accounting industry and nothing much for the IRS
You have to look at the bigger picture. Think of the logging jobs, the driving jobs, papermill jobs, the extra accounting positions, the expanded government jobs.... this will create...
This is the first step in regulating a multi-billion dollar industry.
I have said many times, I have no clue if BTC is a good investment. I was semi-confident it would go up from the pandemic lows of 4k-5k. I only wish I was more confident, but due to some unfortunate crazy and unusual circumstances, I didn't buy as much as I was willing to.Quote: billryanYou are making valid arguments that bitcoin may exist ten years from now. I don't care if it exists, all I care about is is it a good investment. I've yet to see anyone try to explain why bitcoins price is going to go up ten per cent a year for the next five years. Price is down substantially , volume is down, even internet searches are down. Somebody made a big deal about 100,000 vendors accepting it, which sounds nice until you know that Visa is in 100X more places. As more cryptos enter the market, and some of them will be backed by very heavy hitter, will bitcoin be able to keep its market share? So far, it hasn't.
Right now I'm holding, it doesn't hurt to have some diversification, especially when it's something you personally use.
Obviously, it was a very good investment at one time, I'm sure many thought it was a horrible investment from day one.
If I'm making valid arguments that bitcoin may exist ten years from now( I really don't know that I am), that was my entire argument the whole time. I don't think one can simply compare it to Beanie Babies, I mean, they can, but they would be wrong.
Can you link me to the articles and how far into them it indicatess "a lot of people are surprised by this, thinking their holdings are some sort of top-secret" Do the articles go into detail of how they got access to the crypto?Quote: billryanLots of articles all over the news today about how the Feds have seized over 1.2 billion dollars in crypto so far in 2021. Evidently, a lot of people are surprised by this, thinking their holdings are some sort of top secret.
If someone doesn't understand how it works or they sloppy when trying to keep anything a secret, there could be a problem.
Meanwhile, bitcoin is still holding at almost 41k.
Quote: billryanGive a man a fish and you've fed him for the day. Teach him to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime. Pick the search engine of your choice and find a news source you deem trustworthy, then read about it yourself.
That's a silly unhelpful response considering there is no teaching involved. I have a feeling you know I am capable of using search engines.
I would rather not go searching a bunch of articles to find something specific that you already have knowledge of and could speed things up for me, as I have already found 2 that didn't have what I was looking for.
So, I ask again, can you please link me where they were talking about people being surprised and whatnot.
I'm sorry but I read dozens of news articles every day. I don't save them and today I read three or four articles about the government seizing bitcoins. Evidently, one of the seizures involved 30,000 bitcoin that they sold off at auction. At todays prices, that is around eight billion dollars. The front page of Yahoo Financial had maybe a dozen such articles and I read a few and did a quick scan of the rest
Well let me teach you how to fish... Simply use your browser history next time. Whatever the case, it seems like no matter what bad news befalls BTC it tends to shake it off.Quote: billryanAxel,
I'm sorry but I read dozens of news articles every day. I don't save them and today I read three or four articles about the government seizing bitcoins. Evidently, one of the seizures involved 30,000 bitcoin that they sold off at auction. At todays prices, that is around eight billion dollars. The front page of Yahoo Financial had maybe a dozen such articles and I read a few and did a quick scan of the rest
1 Bitcoin equals
44,179.00 United States Dollar
Quote: billryanGreat article on Yahoo about the rise and fall of Beanie Babies and the billion dollar industry they created.
Yawn!
3 or 4 years and 1 billion dollars Compared to the 10 or 11 years and 600 billion market cap on BTC, not to mention all the other businesses that have cropped up.Quote: billryanGreat article on Yahoo about the rise and fall of Beanie Babies and the billion dollar industry they created.
I dont think beanie babies were revolutionary especially when compared to what Bitcoin and the blockchain is.
1 Bitcoin equals
45,439.80 United States Dollar
I think it's up over 300% YTD. and 30% from the time you guys were claiming the big fall was here.
I think most smart people knew that beanie babies were just some fad.
i.e. they couldn't touch it, even if they tried.
If you have it on a hardware wallet, and you memorize your recovery words and never have them written down, what can they do?
If they can get info about any transaction involving those BTC, they can trace them to the address or maybe addresses that they are parked and they can sit and watch them. If they are moved to other addresses, they can watch that too, if the BTC reach a hosted exchange, at any time, they can probably use the law to force that exchange to hand them over. By that time, they may well have been split and spent with any enterprise that accepts BTC payments. You or I might have received some of them. It's like permanently marked banknotes with the serial numbers taken. The question is, what is the risk that the authorities might still seize them from you or I as the proceeds of someone else's crime?Quote: RomesIf you have it on a hardware wallet, and you memorize your recovery words and never have them written down, what can they do?
But while hosted just on the blockchain as described, there is little they can do.
Quote: OnceDearIf they can get info about any transaction involving those BTC, they can trace them to the address or maybe addresses that they are parked and they can sit and watch them. If they are moved to other addresses
Bitcoin addresses are only for receiving.
You do not park your bitcoin at an address. You also do not send from an address.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/From_address
Thanks Blockchain expolorers do make this conceptually confusing.Quote: gamerfreakBitcoin addresses are only for receiving.
You do not park your bitcoin at an address. You also do not send from an address.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/From_address
BTC do work their way from receiving address to receiving address and can be seen as unspent at the last one(s) they went to, hence me describing them as being parked there, where they could be watched. Am I wrong with that?
If SOME get spent, they can be tracked forwards until they reach a hosted exchange address. I don't know how, but I expect that hosted exchange addresses can be identified as such.
Though you don't send from a receiving address, the previous receiving addresses are in the 'ledger'. Very true that this does not constitute a from address.
Quote: OnceDearThanks Blockchain expolorers do make this conceptually confusing.
BTC do work their way from receiving address to receiving address and can be seen as unspent at the last one(s) they went to, hence me describing them as being parked there, where they could be watched. Am I wrong with that?
If SOME get spent, they can be tracked forwards until they reach a hosted exchange address. I don't know how, but I expect that hosted exchange addresses can be identified as such.
Though you don't send from a receiving address, the previous receiving addresses are in the 'ledger'. Very true that this does not constitute a from address.
Sorry I was incorrect about bitcoins not being parked on an address.
torture? Or in your case, just start tickling you with a feather.Quote: RomesI'm intrigued how any government would actually "confiscate" any bitcoin. I'm not claiming to be well read in this space, but the one article I've read about a foreign criminal was they alleged he had millions in bitcoin and were offering him a severely reduced sentence if he gave them the code words to access the account.
i.e. they couldn't touch it, even if they tried.
If you have it on a hardware wallet, and you memorize your recovery words and never have them written down, what can they do?
WMOAT: For now, let's disregard the hard wallet as that may be confusing since it's actually something physical. If you have simply generated a recovery seed and then memorize your recovery words and never have them written down, what can they do?
Quote: AxelWolftorture? Or in your case, just start tickling you with a feather.
WMOAT: For now, let's disregard the hard wallet as that may be confusing since it's actually something physical. If you have simply generated a recovery seed and then memorize your recovery words and never have them written down, what can they do?
You might ask the people who had their 1.2 billion dollars in assets seized.
I'm sure you are all watching the debate in the senate where a few politicians are trying to hold up the trillion dollar infrastructure bill over the new cryptocurrency reporting rules.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Losses from theft, hacks, and fraud in "decentralized finance" or DeFi, a thriving segment in the cryptocurrency sector, hit an all-time high in the first seven months of the year, a report from crypto intelligence company CipherTrace showed on Tuesday.
But losses from crime in the overall cryptocurrency market dropped sharply to $681 million at the end of July, compared to $1.9 billion for the whole of 2020 and $4.5 billion in 2019.
The drop in crypto crime overall reflected the industry's growing maturity and much-improved security infrastructure, investors said.
The DeFi sector, on the other hand, registered criminal losses of a record $474 million from January to July.
DeFi applications, many of which run on the Ethereum blockchain, are financial platforms that enable crypto-denominated lending outside of traditional banks.
"It shouldn't come as a surprise that as the DeFi ecosystem expands, so are DeFi crimes," Dave Jevans, CipherTrace's chief executive officer, said in an email to Reuters.
"Just eight months into 2021 and DeFi hacks, thefts, and frauds have already surpassed the total DeFi crimes from 2020. This means regulators around the globe are paying closer attention to DeFi specifically."
The value locked - the total number of loans on DeFi platforms - was $80.4 billion on Monday, down from $86 billion in mid-May, DeFi Pulse data showed, but up more than 600% from $11 billion in October last year.
There are two types of DeFi crimes: the hack of a DeFi protocol by outsiders, or a "rug pull" by insiders, CipherTrace said. A "rug pull" occurs when crypto developers abandon a project and run away with investors' money.
The majority of DeFi crimes in 2021 appear to have been conducted by outsiders as hacks, making up $361 million, or 76%, of all DeFi-related crime. The remaining 24% are rug pulls tallying over $113 million at the end of July.
Last Friday, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission said it charged lender Blockchain Credit Partners and two of its top executives for raising $30 million through allegedly fraudulent offerings. The case is the SEC's first involving securities in the DeFi space.
(Reporting by Gertrude Chavez-Dreyfuss; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)
Quote: billryanThe Feds aren't the only ones after your pseudo-currencies.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Losses from theft, hacks, and fraud in "decentralized finance" or DeFi, a thriving segment in the cryptocurrency sector, hit an all-time high in the first seven months of the year, a report from crypto intelligence company CipherTrace showed on Tuesday.
But losses from crime in the overall cryptocurrency market dropped sharply to $681 million at the end of July, compared to $1.9 billion for the whole of 2020 and $4.5 billion in 2019.
The drop in crypto crime overall reflected the industry's growing maturity and much-improved security infrastructure, investors said.
The DeFi sector, on the other hand, registered criminal losses of a record $474 million from January to July.
DeFi applications, many of which run on the Ethereum blockchain, are financial platforms that enable crypto-denominated lending outside of traditional banks.
"It shouldn't come as a surprise that as the DeFi ecosystem expands, so are DeFi crimes," Dave Jevans, CipherTrace's chief executive officer, said in an email to Reuters.
"Just eight months into 2021 and DeFi hacks, thefts, and frauds have already surpassed the total DeFi crimes from 2020. This means regulators around the globe are paying closer attention to DeFi specifically."
The value locked - the total number of loans on DeFi platforms - was $80.4 billion on Monday, down from $86 billion in mid-May, DeFi Pulse data showed, but up more than 600% from $11 billion in October last year.
There are two types of DeFi crimes: the hack of a DeFi protocol by outsiders, or a "rug pull" by insiders, CipherTrace said. A "rug pull" occurs when crypto developers abandon a project and run away with investors' money.
The majority of DeFi crimes in 2021 appear to have been conducted by outsiders as hacks, making up $361 million, or 76%, of all DeFi-related crime. The remaining 24% are rug pulls tallying over $113 million at the end of July.
Last Friday, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission said it charged lender Blockchain Credit Partners and two of its top executives for raising $30 million through allegedly fraudulent offerings. The case is the SEC's first involving securities in the DeFi space.
(Reporting by Gertrude Chavez-Dreyfuss; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)
How many losses from theft, hacking, etc, were there for regular finance?
(I believe Nicole Simpsons family has a civil legal claim against Oj's assets, or something like, but certain things they can't take)
