ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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April 13th, 2018 at 5:17:52 PM permalink
After listening to the podcast today, a couple things pop out to me. First off, according to the Nevada trespass statute as Bob alluded to, 207.200, the owner or occupant must be the one warning you not to come back. The person at SLS who trespassed me was a security guard after being told by a black suit to trespass me. The security guard then proceeded to tell me 'As a duly authorized representative, you are hereby trespassed according to blah blah blah, etc'. That to me doesnt sound like the owner or occupant of SLS trespassed me, correct? SLS is owned by SBE Entertainment Group and Stockbridge Real Estate. So it looks like I can go back without a threat of arrest for a misdemeanor. Not to mention they're not even allowed to trespass me without cause and can only exclude me from 'gaming activities' per NRS 463.0129 and not the whole property in itself as ill get into now.

Bob towards the end says casinos can trespass you however they want without reading you a card etc, which I agree with since there is nothing in the statutes that says anything has to be formal, but he also forgot to mention that they cannot trespass you without cause from a business open to the public since that is completely unconstitutional, violates the Wilkinson precedent, and also violates NRS 463.0129. This very statute does give the authorty to casinos to exclude you but ONLY from 'gaming activities' and to EJECT you from the premises. Otherwise, gaming establishments must remain open to the public and not be restricted in any way. Keep in mind that the legal definition of eject means to remove you or throw out, not to BAR or TRESPASS someone fron returning. For a casino to trespass you without cause would not only be unconstitutional but would violate NRS 463.0129 as well as the Wilkinson court case that says you must be causing a distutbance or be disorderl. It's not a coincidence that whrn card counters come back, they are just told to leave each time without being arrested. Everything I said above explains why.

Also the thing about preferential shuffling, i just dont understand how a court can say it doesnt violate the cheating statute on the books for each state, especially Nevada, and claim the casinos can countermeasure you. Thats a complete contradiction. Are we a country of laws or not? The Nevada statute clearly says you cannot alter the odds of the game and the frequency of payment. In a hot shoe youre doing both of those by shuffling up.
Last edited by: ZenKinG on Apr 13, 2018
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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April 13th, 2018 at 5:33:55 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

After listening to the podcast today, a couple things pop out to me. First off, according to the trespass statute as Bob alluded, to 207.200, the owner or occupant must be the one warning you not to come back. The person at SLS who trespassed me was a security guard after being told by a black suit to trespass me.



Perhaps it could be argued the security guard was an "occupant."

Quote:

Bob towards the end says casinos can trespass you however they want without reading you a card etc, which I agree since there is nothing in the statute that says anything has to be formal, but he also forgot to mention that they cannot trespass you without cause from a business open to the public since that is completely unconstitutional and also violates NRS 463.0129. This very statute does give the authorty to casinos to exclude you but ONLY from 'gaming activities' and to EJECT you from the premises. Otherwise, gaming establishments must remain open to the public and not be restricted in any way. Keep in mind that the legal definition of eject means to remove you or throw out, not to BAR or TRESPASS someone fron returning. For a casino to trespass you without cause would not only be unconstitutional but would violate NRS 463.0129 as well as the Wilkinson court case that says you must be causing a distutbance or be disorderl. It's not a coincidence that whrn card counters come back, they are just told to leave each time without being arrested. Everything I said above explains why.



Quote: NRS 463.0129



Public policy of state concerning gaming; license or approval revocable privilege.

1.  The Legislature hereby finds, and declares to be the public policy of this state, that:

(a) The gaming industry is vitally important to the economy of the State and the general welfare of the inhabitants.

(b) The continued growth and success of gaming is dependent upon public confidence and trust that licensed gaming and the manufacture, sale and distribution of gaming devices and associated equipment are conducted honestly and competitively, that establishments which hold restricted and nonrestricted licenses where gaming is conducted and where gambling devices are operated do not unduly impact the quality of life enjoyed by residents of the surrounding neighborhoods, that the rights of the creditors of licensees are protected and that gaming is free from criminal and corruptive elements.

(c) Public confidence and trust can only be maintained by strict regulation of all persons, locations, practices, associations and activities related to the operation of licensed gaming establishments, the manufacture, sale or distribution of gaming devices and associated equipment and the operation of inter-casino linked systems.

(d) All establishments where gaming is conducted and where gaming devices are operated, and manufacturers, sellers and distributors of certain gaming devices and equipment, and operators of inter-casino linked systems must therefore be licensed, controlled and assisted to protect the public health, safety, morals, good order and general welfare of the inhabitants of the State, to foster the stability and success of gaming and to preserve the competitive economy and policies of free competition of the State of Nevada.

(e) To ensure that gaming is conducted honestly, competitively and free of criminal and corruptive elements, all gaming establishments in this state must remain open to the general public and the access of the general public to gaming activities must not be restricted in any manner except as provided by the Legislature.

2.  No applicant for a license or other affirmative commission approval has any right to a license or the granting of the approval sought. Any license issued or other commission approval granted pursuant to the provisions of this chapter or chapter 464 of NRS is a revocable privilege, and no holder acquires any vested right therein or thereunder.

3.  This section does not:

(a) Abrogate or abridge any common-law right of a gaming establishment to exclude any person from gaming activities or eject any person from the premises of the establishment for any reason; or

(b) Prohibit a licensee from establishing minimum wagers for any gambling game or slot machine.



How does trespassing people non-gambling reasons violate the above? I suppose you're referring to part 1(e), but I assume as "provided by the Legislature," they can exclude whoever they want, as long as the reason isn't discrimination. Are the casinos supposed to be powerless to keep out thieves and other criminals?

Your idealism is very strong, but sometimes you have to accept that you live in the real world.

Quote:

Also the thing about preferential shuffling, i just dont understand how a court can say it doesnt violate the cheating statute on the books for each state, especially Nevada, and claim the casinos can countermeasure you. Thats a complete contradiction. Are we a country of laws or not? The statute clearly sayd you cant alter the odds of the game and the frequency of payment. In a hot shoe youre doing both of those by shuffling up.



I already responded to this point.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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April 13th, 2018 at 5:41:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: NRS 463.0129



Public policy of state concerning gaming; license or approval revocable privilege.

1.  The Legislature hereby finds, and declares to be the public policy of this state, that:

(a) The gaming industry is vitally important to the economy of the State and the general welfare of the inhabitants.

(b) The continued growth and success of gaming is dependent upon public confidence and trust that licensed gaming and the manufacture, sale and distribution of gaming devices and associated equipment are conducted honestly and competitively, that establishments which hold restricted and nonrestricted licenses where gaming is conducted and where gambling devices are operated do not unduly impact the quality of life enjoyed by residents of the surrounding neighborhoods, that the rights of the creditors of licensees are protected and that gaming is free from criminal and corruptive elements.

(c) Public confidence and trust can only be maintained by strict regulation of all persons, locations, practices, associations and activities related to the operation of licensed gaming establishments, the manufacture, sale or distribution of gaming devices and associated equipment and the operation of inter-casino linked systems.

(d) All establishments where gaming is conducted and where gaming devices are operated, and manufacturers, sellers and distributors of certain gaming devices and equipment, and operators of inter-casino linked systems must therefore be licensed, controlled and assisted to protect the public health, safety, morals, good order and general welfare of the inhabitants of the State, to foster the stability and success of gaming and to preserve the competitive economy and policies of free competition of the State of Nevada.

(e) To ensure that gaming is conducted honestly, competitively and free of criminal and corruptive elements, all gaming establishments in this state must remain open to the general public and the access of the general public to gaming activities must not be restricted in any manner except as provided by the Legislature.

2.  No applicant for a license or other affirmative commission approval has any right to a license or the granting of the approval sought. Any license issued or other commission approval granted pursuant to the provisions of this chapter or chapter 464 of NRS is a revocable privilege, and no holder acquires any vested right therein or thereunder.

3.  This section does not:

(a) Abrogate or abridge any common-law right of a gaming establishment to exclude any person from gaming activities or eject any person from the premises of the establishment for any reason; or

(b) Prohibit a licensee from establishing minimum wagers for any gambling game or slot machine.



How does trespassing people non-gambling reasons violate the above? Are the casinos supposed to be powerless to keep out thieves and other criminals? I would hazard a guess that most trespasses are for non-gambling reasons, like vagrancy, theft, and prostitution.



It violates it because no where in the statute says they can exclude you from non gambling activities. It clearly says from 'gaming activities'. They do have the power to 'eject' you at will and tell you to leave, but that is completely different. The way they would handle things like theft is they would eject them and then inform the police to take over the incident.

To trespass or exclude someone at will from a business open to the public is completely unconstitutional as the judge in the Wilkinson case ruled on.

Regarding SLS and the security guard, i dont think that can be argued that they are an occupant. Bob mentioned many times the difference between a security guard, an occupant, and an owner. Just more intimidation from casinos. Casinos and security are very similar to the police. They are specifically trained to scare you into giving up your rights.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Hunterhill
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IndyJeffrey
April 13th, 2018 at 5:48:43 PM permalink
I would guess that the security guard is acting as an agent of the owner or occupant,otherwise you really think Steve Wynn has to be the one to trespass you from a Wynn property or Sheldon from the Venetian.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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April 13th, 2018 at 5:52:07 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I would guess that the security guard is acting as an agent of the owner or occupant,otherwise you really think Steve Wynn has to be the one to trespass you from a Wynn property or Sheldon from the Venetian.



Yes i do. Being an 'agent' of an owner or occupant isnt exactly the same thing. We're a country of laws right? Read the law and tell me what it says. Laws are to be read in plain english and to mean exactly what it says.
Last edited by: ZenKinG on Apr 13, 2018
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Wizard
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April 13th, 2018 at 5:59:31 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

It violates it because no where in the statute says they can exclude you from non gambling activities. It clearly says from 'gaming activities'. They do have the power to 'eject' you at will and tell you to leave, but that is completely different. The way they would handle things like theft is they would eject them and then inform the police to take over the incident.



Just because it says they can trespass you for "gaming activities," doesn't mean they can't trespass you for other reasons.

I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm pretty sure the law says that casinos are defined legally like private organizations, as opposed to a public-facing business, which gives them a longer leash to welcome and exclude whoever they wish, again so long as it doesn't violate any laws against discrimination.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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April 13th, 2018 at 6:09:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Just because it says they can trespass you for "gaming activities," doesn't mean they can't trespass you for other reasons.

I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm pretty sure the law says that casinos are defined legally like private organizations, as opposed to a public-facing business, which gives them a longer leash to welcome and exclude whoever they wish, again so long as it doesn't violate any laws against discrimination.



We'll agree to disagree. While they might be regarded as a private business, they also fall under 'gaming establishments' which has its own sets of rules and laws they must follow as well.

You mention discrimination. Thats why i say they cannot trespass you or exclude you from their establishment without cause because that could fall under discrimination, which the Wilkinson judge ruled is unconstitutional if it's without cause.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MrV
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rdw4potusJohnnyQ
April 13th, 2018 at 6:11:37 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Bob towards the end says casinos can trespass you however they want without reading you a card etc, which I agree with since there is nothing in the statutes that says anything has to be formal, but he also forgot to mention that they cannot trespass you without cause from a business open to the public since that is completely unconstitutional, violates the Wilkinson precedent, and also violates NRS 463.0129.



LOL, oh but this is rich.

He dares to challenge the legal acumen of B.N., probably the foremost "gamblers' lawyer" in the land.

Dilly dilly.
"What, me worry?"
Wizard
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April 13th, 2018 at 7:02:03 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Dilly dilly.



Why is everybody suddenly saying "dilly dilly?" Is it a reference to Cinderella?


Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Aqr0ume_M

Upon further research, the song Lavender's Blue is an old English song that made it's way into the Cinderella movie. Source:
Wikipedia.
Last edited by: Wizard on Apr 13, 2018
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
NokTang
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April 13th, 2018 at 7:09:57 PM permalink
I listened to the podcast last night. I came out of it unimpressed with everyone's favorite attorney. Unimpressed because of the manner in which he dismissed the idea of a person paying for his time to ask questions and saying it's "$20,000.usd" for each question and on another issue "the attorney will have to pay me $5000.usd for my briefs" etc.. It's a sad day IMHO when an attorney becomes one with an attitude like this. The attempts at humor were also very childlike IMHO but that's me. He's the one laughing all the way to the bank I suppose and well, that's that. The silly attack of Caesars Palace were also childlike IMHO.

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