FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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July 22nd, 2017 at 4:25:14 AM permalink
I've posted before about an incident over twenty years ago in Vegas where the Pencil told a dealer "You are on Such and Such Carnival Game, Table 3, in ten minutes. The dealer protested that he didn't know how to play the game, did not know the rules, had never been trained on the game. Whereupon the Pencil made a big show of looking at his watch and replied "In that case you are on that tabel in nine mimutes".

Nowadays that doesn't happen and it should certainly not happen in high stakes games. However about three years ago at a Seminole casino in Florida I did have a neophyte baccarat dealer. And she tried to charge me a commission on the five dollar bet I made for her on the mini-bacc layout. You can be sure I called the Floor over for that one.
RS
RS
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July 22nd, 2017 at 6:23:42 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I've posted before about an incident over twenty years ago in Vegas where the Pencil told a dealer "You are on Such and Such Carnival Game, Table 3, in ten minutes. The dealer protested that he didn't know how to play the game, did not know the rules, had never been trained on the game. Whereupon the Pencil made a big show of looking at his watch and replied "In that case you are on that tabel in nine mimutes".

Nowadays that doesn't happen and it should certainly not happen in high stakes games. However about three years ago at a Seminole casino in Florida I did have a neophyte baccarat dealer. And she tried to charge me a commission on the five dollar bet I made for her on the mini-bacc layout. You can be sure I called the Floor over for that one.


That's simply false.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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Thanks for this post from:
Mooseton
July 22nd, 2017 at 9:04:28 AM permalink
Quote: NokTang

Where did you read/see the story about the craps game? I didn't think they even had craps in Europe? Thanks.



Wow! OK, I checked, and you are correct. Thanx for calling my attention to this oversight.

The issue of craps wins and losses involved only Ivey's battle with the Borg. Crockfords does not show craps as available at its venue. When I checked, I could only find where Borgata tried to include Ivey's wins from craps, while not including his (larger) losses from craps in its calculation of "damages." For those interested in reviewing the Borg battle, look here.

Quote: Borgata Opinion, 12/15/2016

This finding implicates Ivey and Sun’s argument against Borgata’s requested damages. For each of the four days of play, Borgata provides an accounting of the front money Ivey deposited, the amount of money Ivey and Sun won, and the amount of money Ivey and Sun withdrew from the front money account. (Docket No. 109 at 4.)

Borgata’s calculation separates out the $892,200 Ivey lost at Craps, but it includes as damages the $504,000 Ivey won at Craps, because those winnings were directly traceable to his prior Baccarat winnings – i.e., he used Baccarat winnings to play Craps. Borgata’s calculation also notes the chips Ivey redeemed for cash rather than deposited into his front money account. The total amount Borgata claims constitutes the parties’ positions prior to Ivey and Sun’s formation of their contract to play Baccarat is $10,130,000.



So, in calculating $$$ Ivey won from Borgata, the casino included Ivey's craps winnings, but did not include Ivey's (larger) craps losses, because the Borg (and judge) were (apparently) able to determine Ivey's craps losses were from his own front money, but his winnings were from ill-gotten baccarat winnings.

I remain stunned the casino and court could divide the "baby" so precisely, and in such a one-sided manner.
DeMango
DeMango
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July 22nd, 2017 at 12:31:57 PM permalink
Craps is available in the UK.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
NokTang
NokTang
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July 22nd, 2017 at 8:37:05 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow


So, in calculating $$$ Ivey won from Borgata, the casino included Ivey's craps winnings, but did not include Ivey's (larger) craps losses, because the Borg (and judge) were (apparently) able to determine Ivey's craps losses were from his own front money, but his winnings were from ill-gotten baccarat winnings.

I remain stunned the casino and court could divide the "baby" so precisely, and in such a one-sided manner.



It's total nonsense because once the money is won, it's yours/mine/Ivey's. They also as you may recall included theoretical loss in the lawsuit.

There was a time when I knew, but on some appeal matters you have to put the money up. I don't know in this New Jersey case.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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July 25th, 2017 at 3:12:37 PM permalink
Quote: NokTang

They also as you may recall included theoretical loss in the lawsuit.



True, but the judge disallowed Borg's inclusion of theoretical losses.
RS
RS
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July 26th, 2017 at 1:23:09 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The bolded part is the key and why what they did is cheating/collusion, even if the dealer, floor, management doesnt know it gives him an edge. I agree with the original court rulings and he IS a cheater.


IIRC, the original court rulings did not state that he cheated. However, Borgata did deal an illegal game.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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July 26th, 2017 at 7:03:27 AM permalink
Quote: RS

However, Borgata did deal an illegal game.

More precisely it was that an unknowingly non-random deck was deemed to illegal ab initio so the game was considered void from the start.

Now a die that had a physixal defect is immediately detectable but a misshuffled deck is not. The preshuffled but unknowingly rigged deck is not detectable until its in use. The turn the edges of the valuable cards is a rigged deck once the first cards are turned even though it would not be usuable information until those discards are fed thru the sorter again.

Its cheating, now matter how bold the scheme is and now matter how stupid the dealer is, its cheating.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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July 26th, 2017 at 7:42:10 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: RS

However, Borgata did deal an illegal game.

More precisely it was that an unknowingly non-random deck was deemed to illegal ab initio so the game was considered void from the start.

Now a die that had a physixal defect is immediately detectable but a misshuffled deck is not. The preshuffled but unknowingly rigged deck is not detectable until its in use. The turn the edges of the valuable cards is a rigged deck once the first cards are turned even though it would not be usuable information until those discards are fed thru the sorter again.

Its cheating, now matter how bold the scheme is and now matter how stupid the dealer is, its cheating.


Based on your argument, shuffle tracking would also be cheating if you cut a slug of high cards
To a known location.
Since you are now rigging the deck.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.

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