Bob used the term, "Chinaman" in the show
Just to state the obvious. I'm a Chinese American and I found it odd/uncomfortable to hear this term in a public radio show. Do you guys use this term in your daily conversation? If so, do you know the history behind it?
I'm ok with Chinaman or Oriental
I don't use these terms
I use Chinese or Vietnamese or Korean ect
Or I use Asian
I'm also ok with Charlie Chan movies
Watched them growing up
restaurants, like this one in FL, that have
Chinaman as their name. How bad can it
be.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Chinaman-World-Famous-Cheeseburger-and-Fries/558710500906727
Quote: onenickelmiracleNope, not Chinaman or Oriental. .
I just don't get what is offensive with the term Oriental
It doesn't bother me or my mother who is full blooded Chinese.
I am a fan of history
I remember the orient express. I or my mother was never offended by the name on the train.
What does bothers me is a private message from EB today on this site full of hate for me on this subject
I was really taken aback by the PM
wow
If I get suspended for revealing this, so be it
Quote: VCUSkyhawkOk I am confused. Why is Chinaman offensive if the person you are describing IS from China? .
I don't get it either and I was born in the Republic of China (not the Peoples Republic of China)
http://www.philly.com/philly/food/Chinks-Steaks-changing-its-name.html
Quote: BozCould be worse, this classic Cheessteak shop in Philly had to change its name and lost business.
http://www.philly.com/philly/food/Chinks-Steaks-changing-its-name.html
If you are not eating at Pats Steaks, you not having a genuine Philly Steak and cheese
I remember when NBA star John Havelich retired, last 2 months of his final season was treated as a farewell tour.
In Philly, he was presented at center court before the game with a take out order from Pats Steaks :-)
Although, I find it interesting that the "Orient Express" went only as far east as Constantinople.Quote: terapinedI just don't get what is offensive with the term Oriental
It doesn't bother me or my mother who is full blooded Chinese.
I am a fan of history
I remember the orient express. I or my mother was never offended by the name on the train.
I once heard that the term "Oriental" is only appropriate when describing rugs, and that "Asian" was the preferred term. I guess each individual has his opinion on the subject. I have no problem using a term that a listener would prefer, even if it is different than what I am used to, but I can't always know what they would prefer! I also applaud people who do not take offense when none is intended.
Well, that sucks! I hope you can let it go. I know you post a lot in the political threads here. I can't say that I agree with some of your positions, but you put forth thoughtful arguments. I don't ever recall you being disrespectful to anyone.Quote:What does bothers me is a private message from EB today on this site full of hate for me on this subject
I was really taken aback by the PM
wow
Quote: terapinedIf you are not eating at Pats Steaks, you not having a genuine Philly Steak and cheese
I remember when NBA star John Havelich retired, last 2 months of his final season was treated as a farewell tour.
In Philly, he was presented at center court before the game with a take out order from Pats Steaks :-)
Are you from Philly? You must not be from Philly. Pat's and Gino's are garbage. Chinks is great though.
I'll even go a step further and not even recxomend a cheesesteak if you are in the city. There is a much better sandwich. Dinic's pork with provolone and long hots. John's roast pork is a good runner up.
Back on topic....growing up in a pretty diverse area, I found that 99% of people do not take offense to racial slurs in/of themselves. It all depends on the context. If you are legitimately being hateful towards someone, of course they are going to get upset.
Oriental and Occidental are problematical unless there is a reference point. You can get there from either direction you know.
For some people you just don't have a Chinaman's Chance of changing their minds. Negroes, ooops blacks, object to Stepin' Fetchett caricatures, Chinese never seemed to complain about 'Heyboy' in 'Have Gun, Will Travel'. San Francisco had Chinese owned opium dens and Mahjong Parlors, but even the wealthy owners who could speak English perfectly would customarily revert to a No Tickee, No Shirtee when traveling.
As to Republic of China and Peoples Republic of China ... their is meeting abuot that scheduled to take place in Donald Trump's New Amsterdam.
Quote:"Chinaman", when directed at an Asian-American, is insulting because:
1) If the person is not ethnically Chinese, you've not only demonstrated you can't tell the difference between Asians, but you're also saying there's no significant difference. That not only do all Asians look alike, they are culturally the same.
2) If the person is ethnically Chinese but identifies as American, you've told them that their ethnicity will always separate them from Americans no matter how long ago their ancestors came here or how immersed they are in American culture.
3) "Chinaman" implies a person from China, not just of Chinese ancestry, which implies that to you, no matter how Americanized they are or what their citizenship is or anything, they will always be an outsider who doesn't belong in America.
It's most definitely not a term whose degree of offensiveness is dictated by usage or context. I cannot think of any situation in which an Asian-American being called a Chinaman would be inoffensive. It's true that anyone using the term "Chinaman" reveals a lot more about himself than it insults the speaker, but that doesn't take away from the negative connotations of the term.
Quote: gamerfreakAre you from Philly? You must not be from Philly. Pat's and Gino's are garbage. Chinks is great though.
I'll even go a step further and not even recxomend a cheesesteak if you are in the city. There is a much better sandwich. Dinic's pork with provolone and long hots. John's roast pork is a good runner up.
Back on topic....growing up in a pretty diverse area, I found that 99% of people do not take offense to racial slurs in/of themselves. It all depends on the context. If you are legitimately being hateful towards someone, of course they are going to get upset.
From Maryland living in Florida but I did go to Drexel U right in the city.
It was interesting time living in Philly
The Black radical group "Move" had a fortified house a block from my dorm in Powelton Village section of Philly
I thought the Pats Cheese steak I had with onions and provolone was excellent
I totally agree with "It all depends on the context" regarding the use of "Chinaman" and other racial descriptions
Oh, those string bands!
If he was talking about a wealthy male visitor from China, how else would he say the term? Are you supposed to say "male Chinese National". Chinaman is easier, just like Irishman, Brit, neither of those are politically correct, but it keeps things easier for quick statements.
I have even heard Donald Trump say Chinaman (I think even "wealthy Chinaman"), many public figures use it. I don't know the context, but I doubt that they had bad intentions.
I would NOT use what trump says as a base line for politically correct... Otherwise we should all start grabbing 'em by the p****.Quote: Gandler...I have even heard Donald Trump say Chinaman (I think even "wealthy Chinaman"), many public figures use it. I don't know the context, but I doubt that they had bad intentions.
I'm not an Irish-American. I'm an American of Irish descent, even though I was born in neither.
Quote: terapinedI just don't get what is offensive with the term Oriental
It doesn't bother me or my mother who is full blooded Chinese.
I am a fan of history
I remember the orient express. I or my mother was never offended by the name on the train.
What does bothers me is a private message from EB today on this site full of hate for me on this subject
I was really taken aback by the PM
wow
If I get suspended for revealing this, so be it
I think the reason is the term really only describes people as a group with one less eyelid fold. Asian can mean anyone from Asia, including Indians, but Oriental only includes yellow skinned, foldless eyed people. Basically you're making reference to a group by common ethnic appearances. It's more polite doing the same thing, but using geography. Oriental is linked to the old days, when only whites had rights. Think that is another aspect.
Quote: billryanIf Bob were referring to a wealthy man from China, calling him Chinese-American would be both wrong and stupid.
I'm not an Irish-American. I'm an American of Irish descent, even though I was born in neither.
I am actually biracial - Irish/Chinese
A friend once joked that I like beer with my rice :-)
Quote: terapinedI am actually biracial - Irish/Chinese
A friend once joked that I like beer with my rice :-)
There are only two types of people.
Those who are Irish, and those who wish they were.
Ni leor teanga amhain.
Cead mile failte
Then if you're kicked in the head while being called something, you're likely to get a bad association with the term, no matter what it is.
Quote: WigginsMaybe "Chinaman" isn't as offensive as some other pejorative terms, but I've never heard it used by anyone I have an ounce of respect for. I found a great thread on another forum. I can't post links due to my low post count but if you google "chinaman offensive" it's the second result. Here is one of the best posts:
1) If the person is not ethnically Chinese, you've not only demonstrated you can't tell the difference between Asians, but you're also saying there's no significant difference. That not only do all Asians look alike, they are culturally the same.
2) If the person is ethnically Chinese but identifies as American, you've told them that their ethnicity will always separate them from Americans no matter how long ago their ancestors came here or how immersed they are in American culture.
3) "Chinaman" implies a person from China, not just of Chinese ancestry, which implies that to you, no matter how Americanized they are or what their citizenship is or anything, they will always be an outsider who doesn't belong in America.
Those are all cases of inventing a narrative, or putting thoughts into another person's mind, so that you get to feel offended. Ultra P.C. people are like bad girlfriends that way.
There are very obvious counter examples, about how we describe Italian Americans, or how a Canadian would be thought of in China. Jeez, I recently talked with a black woman who went to China and was telling me how people kept asking to take a picture with her just because they'd never seen a black person before. She thought it was a little annoying, but wasn't offended.
Some people just stop changing the way the speak as they get older. Other people think it's colorful to use outdated terms, like chinaman, that don't really have any venom in them.
You can certainly argue that it is inconsiderate. I'll generally call people whatever they seem to like being called, though that gets tricky too. Like you say "native American," then they say "Indian." Do you now switch?
Anyway, you can't just assert that someone is sending such and such message, or expressing such and such belief, because it makes you feel self righteous to do so. Either someone is being hateful, or they are not. The reasons they use the term are the real reasons they use the term. The reasons you make up and assign to them are the fabrications of an addled mind.
"It's most definitely not a term whose degree of offensiveness is dictated by usage or context. I cannot think of any situation in which an Asian-American being called a Chinaman would be inoffensive."
I can think of a very obvious one. You know each other and they don't find it offensive. I used to have mostly Asian co-workers and it went way, way beyond that.
Does that classification include Koreans, Vietnamese, Thais and even Japanese?Quote: onenickelmiracleI think the reason is the term really only describes people as a group with one less eyelid fold. Asian can mean anyone from Asia, including Indians, but Oriental only includes yellow skinned, foldless eyed people. Basically you're making reference to a group by common ethnic appearances. It's more polite doing the same thing, but using geography. Oriental is linked to the old days, when only whites had rights. Think that is another aspect.
Quote: JimRockfordIt just sounds ignorant. You might say Irishman but you don't say Irelandman. A man from China is a Chinese man.
I suppose there's a grammatical or intellectual argument, but I really can't see someone who is from China being up in arms about the term Chinaman. Sure there are better ways to say it, but that's far different from being offensive.
I guess it could cross that line in situations where people refer to ANY person of Asian decent as a Chinaman, regardless if they are from China, Japan, Korea, etc etc etc.
Ever traveled outside the US? I promise you'll be called a Yank at least once.
Quote: terapined
What does bothers me is a private message from EB today on this site full of hate for me on this subject
I was really taken aback by the PM
I never sent you a PM on this site. I sent
one on DT saying that Asian Americans
are even more in the tank for Dems than
Latinos. That they blindly vote for Dems
no matter what, god knows why, and
don't seem capable of original political
thought. No hatred, just facts. Whenever
the majority of a nationality votes for one
party every single time, something is
wrong somewhere, wouldn't you agree?
Whites don't do that, we seem capable
of weighing the candidates on merits,
not on party. I voted Obama in 08, I voted
Carter in 76, I supported Humphrey in 68.
Just a few months ago, the media was crowing
every day that blacks, Asians and Latinos were
totally in the tank for Hillary, Trump would
get none of their votes. We heard it every
day. Doesn't it bother you to be so cookie
cutter pigeon holed as a non thinking 'follow
the heard' voter? It would drive me nuts, but
the minorities seem proud of it. I guess that's
part of the whole package. All the heavy
lifting has been done for you, why question it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/opinion/why-are-asian-americans-such-loyal-democrats.html?_r=0
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016
Quote: terapinedI am actually biracial - Irish/Chinese
So you were born in Ireland to an Irish
father and Chinese mother? I don't
think so. You're Chinese/Irish who's
an American now. Odd that you didn't
know this. Are you ashamed of being
half Chinese, is that why you put Irish
first?
I can't speak to its offensiveness. I just think it sounds redneck.Quote: gamerfreakI suppose there's a grammatical or intellectual argument, but I really can't see someone who is from China being up in arms about the term Chinaman. Sure there are better ways to say it, but that's far different from being offensive.
I guess it could cross that line in situations where people refer to ANY person of Asian decent as a Chinaman, regardless if they are from China, Japan, Korea, etc etc etc.
Ever traveled outside the US? I promise you'll be called a Yank at least once.
Quote: JimRockfordI can't speak to its offensiveness. I just think it sounds redneck.
I'm not even offended when I'm called
a cracker or a honky by blacks. I don't
even know what those terms mean,
neither do they. They're just silly words.
Edited: Cracker is more an insult in the
South than the North. The guy who
handled the whip in slave times used
to 'crack' it all the time and was called
the cracker. Us in the North never had
slaves, it's not an insult to us.
I've been called gwilo in Hong Kong and it was not meant to be good natured.Quote: gamerfreakEver traveled outside the US? I promise you'll be called a Yank at least once.
Quote: JimRockfordI've been called gwilo in Hong Kong and it was not meant to be good natured.
I was called a haole (howly) the whole time
I lived in Hawaii. And not the good kind.
Quote: EvenBobI never sent you a PM on this site. I sent
one on DT . No hatred, just facts. 0
What you wrote
"You're from China? That explains why you're
such a Kool Aid drinking eyes squeezed shut
Lib. Asian are more in the tank for Dems than
Latinos are. You're brainwashed, it explains
everything. You're incapable of original
political thought."
Kool aid drinking is a fact?
Eyes squeezed shut lib is a fact?
I'm brainwashed is a fact?
They are all LIES
You sent me an IM to insult me. Read it. Its Obvious
You hate me, fine. I expect it from a hateful person like you
I think me posting the IM is fine since EB lied and said the IM was just facts
If I get suspended or nuked, so be it
Quote: EvenBobSo you were born in Ireland to an Irish
father and Chinese mother? I don't
think so. You're Chinese/Irish who's
an American now. Odd that you didn't
know this. Are you ashamed of being
half Chinese, is that why you put Irish
first?
I was born in the Republic of China
My father was Irish/American
My mother is Chinese
I'm proud to be biracial
Quote: EvenBobAsian Americans [...]
don't seem capable of original political
thought. [...]
Whites don't do that, we seem capable
of weighing the candidates on merits
Just making the case to you Bob, that you are a racist. (Everyone else knows already.) Read your own quote. Well, your mind has probably already made up some kind of deflection.
Quote: terapined
Kool aid drinking is a fact?
Eyes squeezed shut lib is a fact?
I'm brainwashed is a fact?
Absolutely. How else do you explain minorities
being in the tank for one party decade after
decade. Deep thinking about issues? Picking
the best candidate after painstaking deliberation?
Nooooooo.. You're ethnic group determines how
most minority members will vote, nothing else.
Donald Duck could be your nominee and you
would say he's the best candidate ever. You can't help
yourself, it's not your fault.
Quote: terapinedWhat you wrote
"You're from China? That explains why you're
such a Kool Aid drinking eyes squeezed shut
Lib. Asian are more in the tank for Dems than
Latinos are. You're brainwashed, it explains
everything. You're incapable of original
political thought."
Kool aid drinking is a fact?
Eyes squeezed shut lib is a fact?
I'm brainwashed is a fact?
They are all LIES
You sent me an IM to insult me. Read it. Its Obvious
You hate me, fine. I expect it from a hateful person like you
I think me posting the IM is fine since EB lied and said the IM was just facts
If I get suspended or nuked, so be it
Terapined broke the rule of not publicizing a PM, but I much more worried about racist hate speech by EvenBob. Is it the policy of this site that "anything goes in a PM"? Michael, this is crazy. I really hope you will draw a line here. Make a new rule if you need to, but if you don't step in here, you condone this kind of behavior on your site. (Not even Zuckerberg can get away with this anymore.)
Quote: terapinedI was born in the Republic of China
My father was Irish/American
My mother is Chinese
I'm proud to be biracial
But you're not Irish/Chinese, as you stated.
You weren't born in Ireland, you're Chinese/
Irish.
If you mother was German and your father
Irish, and you were born in Germany, you're
German/Irish. Has nobody explained this to
you before?
Quote: CanyoneroTerapined broke the rule of not publicizing a PM, but I much more worried about racist hate speech by EvenBob.
Please point out the hate speech, Mr
PC. I don't see it. Do you even know
what hate speech looks like, or are
you one of those that thinks any time
you mention another race you're
hating. Do you deny that minorities
are brainwashed to vote the same
way in every single election? What
else would you call it.
terapined, I don't have a choice. 3 day suspension for publishing a PM without the concurrence of the author.
There is a one-way application in effect for DT vs WoV. The PM was from there, but made public here, breaking both forum rules. The contents of the PM, if they offended you enough to do so, should be brought to the DT moderators' attention.
Quote: beachbumbabs
terapined, I don't have a choice. 3 day suspension for publishing a PM without the concurrence of the author.
I don't care that he posted it, there's
nothing hateful there. The truth is the
truth. He has my permission in retrospect.
I don't give a shit about whether Terapined chooses to be "offended" by that sickening toxic dreck or not; he performed a public service by revelealing that disgusting crap. I am offended by it, as a human being. It would get you immediately and permanently frog marked out of every poker room I ever play in, as it damn well should, and fired from any job I can think of, as it must. And now we get to see if this site is capable of exercising a negligible level of judgment slightly above that of an extremely screwed up child, obviously far below the bare minimum generally expected of any competent responsible person toward any other, anywhere, ever. The tentative answer appears to be "no, minimal judgement appears to be completely absent or has been made utterly impossible."Quote: beachbumbabsEB. Stop it. Drop it. Right now. You've made your factual point such as it is. Your PM was offensive to terapined. If he's made a complaint over on DT, you may face a suspension there. I don't know.
terapined, I don't have a choice. 3 day suspension for publishing a PM without the concurrence of the author.
There is a one-way application in effect for DT vs WoV. The PM was from there, but made public here, breaking both forum rules. The contents of the PM, if they offended you enough to do so, should be brought to the DT moderators' attention.
Quote: EvenBobBut you're not Irish/Chinese, as you stated.
You weren't born in Ireland, you're Chinese/
Irish.
If you mother was German and your father
Irish, and you were born in Germany, you're
German/Irish. Has nobody explained this to
you before?
Because all African-Americans were born in Africa, right?
Quote: DrawingDead
he performed a public service by revelealing that disgusting crap. I am offended by it,
What part is untrue? Please point it out.
I don't care if you're offended, why
should I. I don't live in the same PC
world you do. Don't you think it odd
that every 4 years everybody but
everybody correctly assumes that
all minorities are behind the Dem
candidate, it's never even questioned?
Yet we never assume it about whites.
Why is that?
