If I ran a casino...(Split thread)

Quote: mickeycrimm

If tracking cards is so wrong then how come you guys pass out pencils and paper in the baccarat room?

because the Baccarat room has no Blackjack tables there. Baccarat's base game (Banker, Player, tie) is effectively uncountable, unlike Blackjack.

Try using a pad and pencil on a Blackjack table, and see what happens then.

Quote: Paigowdan

because the Baccarat room has no Blackjack tables there.

Try using a pad and pencil on a Blackjack table, and see what happens then.

Thats the issue though you want to give the false impression that oh yeah we want you to win and we'll even give you the tools you need to win except when someone actually figures out how to win they're banned. I mean if its just entertainment and no one is supposed to get an edge and everyone knows this why obscure the fact by trying to pretend people have an edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you are backed off or 86-ed, you did something wrong in their [the operator's] eyes. No question on this.

I was 86'd because I won $400 in 20 min,
pure luck. I'm supposed to be ashamed?
Whatever, Dan. They're the ones that should
be ashamed.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, exactly. Same as movie houses separating dumbass film lovers from their money, or restaurants separating dumbass gluttons from their money, and oil companies separating dumbass drivers at gas stations from their money, and what have you. Pick a business to rip off. Casinos are actually honorable as they also pay the dumbass gamblers when they win, and provide them entertainment, and good and fair house edges, and clean rooms, and clean movie theaters, and quick cocktail waitress service, and the like. If I were to tell you that the Gaming Industry is actually a great and legitimate Industry providing entertainment services, you'd think I was crazy for having this position.


Ah, Yes, exactly. Right again.
Petty scammers of gambling halls who believe they are robin-Hood like, actually. On the same level as scamming a hotel out of $10 breakfast, or skipping out on a restaurant bill, or loading Buffet food into your coat pockets. Also using your brains to the best of your abilities when you get away with that, too.

PGD, I don't think you or me are ever gonna change. I don't think my occupation is so noble though. I think a person who is talented enough to consistently beat the casinos can make a hell of a lot more money in the business world. I just love the lifestyle. Making a living with no strings attached. No Boss. Vacation whenever you want to. No alarm clock. Mosey around and pick off some money. I love it.

Quote: Twirdman

Thats the issue though you want to give the false impression that oh yeah we want you to win and we'll even give you the tools you need to win except when someone actually figures out how to win they're banned.

Well, that method is banned, and if you use it, you're asked to play some other game, or leave.

Quote: Twirdman

I mean if its just entertainment and no one is supposed to get an edge and everyone knows this why obscure the fact by trying to pretend people have an edge.

No,
1. it's just entertainment, and;
2. the house is supposed to have an edge, to keep its doors open.
3. If you break that house edge on a game by some technique, you're asked to leave (if legal), or get detained (if illegal).

Quote: kewlj

I think part of the problem is that Dan thinks of the casino business as an entertainment service industry, but it's not. It is a gaming/gambling industry.

You hit a home run there. Calling it 'entertainment'
is code-speak for 'lets fool the suckers'. It's all
about money in-money out, entertainment has nothing
to do with anything. If it was an entertainment
joint, the pit would be wearing clown suits and doing
tricks to give us a laugh. Instead they wear what a
banker wears, a suit and a stern look. Yeah, that's
real 'entertaining'.

Quote: kewlj

I think part of the problem is that Dan thinks of the casino business as an entertainment service industry, but it's not. It is a gaming/gambling industry. And as a gaming/gambling industry the 'store' doesn't make a profit off of each and every customer as it does in a traditional service or sales industry. Some customers get the better of the 'store'. It is the nature of the business and built into the business model. It seems that not only does Dan not accept this idea, but he takes it personally when a player wins and wants to change that model to more closely resemble a service/sales industry model, where the store makes a profit off of each and every customer.

This is the very thing that I have been talking about, the transformation if you will, that has taken place in the industry for the last decade when real casino people started being replaced by accountant, 'bottom line' types. They think they are running their business more efficiently, but they are really eliminating the 'gaming' part and destroying their own business model.

The casino business is NOT a service, entertainment business. Sure there are a few patrons that are very content to lose their money trip after trip, in the name of entertainment, but the majority of players that step into a casino, go there with the intent of leaving with more money than they came with. They go to gamble, not necessarily to be entertained. The industry (and Dan) needs to go back to accepting this concept, for it is what keeps them successful.

The reason the casinos in the midwest and south are on water is to keep them out of the way of normal commerce. Because all those casinos are doing is strip mining the economy. And, PGD, casinos and AP's are in the same business. Relieving others of their money. You know what that means? It means we are all scumbags on this bus.

Quote: mickeycrimm

And, PGD, casinos and AP's are in the same business. Relieving others of their money. You know what that means? It means we are all scumbags on this bus.

That's exactly right, and Dan will never accept
that the casino and the AP are cut from the same
cloth. They're both there to fleece somebody. He
has to put the casino on a pedestal for him to be
part of a very nasty business. Whatever gets you
thru the day, I guess. I'd rather see things as they
really are.

Quote: mickeycrimm

The reason the casinos in the midwest and south are on water is to keep them out of the way of normal commerce. Because all those casinos are doing is strip mining the economy. And, PGD, casinos and AP's are in the same business. Relieving others of their money. You know what that means? It means we are all scumbags on this bus.

We're not in the same business.
You see, casinos provide us gambling - a service available to us all!

but AP players provide a service to no one, except to themselves.
THAT's the difference.

Quote: mickeycrimm

The reason the casinos in the midwest and south are on water is to keep them out of the way of normal commerce. Because all those casinos are doing is strip mining the economy.

And I thought this was Wall Street's job. ;)
(Believe it or not, I just purchased the book "Wolf of Wall Street" by Jordan Belfort, in preparation to seeing the movie. Seriously, it looks like a great read.)

Quote: mickeycrimm

And, PGD, casinos and AP's are in the same business. Relieving others of their money. You know what that means? It means we are all scumbags on this bus.

Now THAT I can see people seeing.

However, I have gaming licenses, instead of getting into the black book.

Quote: Paigowdan

Well, that method is banned, and if you use it, you're asked to play some other game, or leave.


No,
1. it's just entertainment, and;
2. the house is supposed to have an edge, to keep its doors open.
3. If you break that house edge on a game by some technique, you're asked to leave (if legal), or get detained (if illegal).

Again though if its just entertainment then why pretend people can get an edge. When I go to a movie there is no lying I am told I will get to watch movie X and I pay Y dollars. Same with a bar or anything else I know what I'm getting upfront and the business isn't trying to deceive me, or if they are they are probably breaking some law; however, I go to a casino and they try to pretend I can get an advantage at baccarat by tracking and the simple fact of the matter is you really can't. They clearly do this to get more people to play so they are lying to people to get their money. I'm not like some who will say that casinos are a scourge and APs are Robin Hoods but be honest the casino also isn't an angel. Both the AP and the casino are trying to make money and both are doing everything in their power to make money.

Quote: Paigowdan

We're not in the same business.
You see, casinos provide us gambling - a service available to us all!

Gambling isn't a service, what are you talking
about. It's a for profit business, plain and simple.

"A service business is a business that sells services directly to consumers or other businesses."

What does a casino sell? Nothing.

Quote: Twirdman

Its nothing like stealing food yeah you have some cheats who would break rules like the guy with the light wands but that is not the majority of what is happening. Its like a competitive eater or a sumo wrestler going to a buffet. Yeah he is eating a lot more than others but he isn't breaking the rules and it is disingenuous to call him a thief or a conman. He is simply playing to the best of his abilities and if that allows him to win then maybe you back him off so you don't lose money but he is not a thief.

The buffet at my casino will monitor how many crab legs you eat and you will be 86ed for having too many!

Quote: Paigowdan

And I thought this was Wall Street's job. ;)


Now THAT I can see people seeing.

However, I have gaming licenses, instead of getting into the black book.

Dan I don't need a license to steal. Just kidding lol. This always turns into PGD against the world. When it gets like this all I need to know is casinos are trying to take my money and I'm trying to take the casino's. All very simple.

Quote: wudged

The buffet at my casino will monitor how many crab legs you eat and you will be 86ed for having too many!

No, that's within the Buffet rules. They're generally fine with gluttons within reason.

The buffet will only 86 you if you put food into your pockets, - as that's AP play.

Quote: EvenBob

What does a casino sell? Nothing.

A casino sells, - as a wonderful service to you and to the general public, - gambling action in the forms of slots, table games, keno, bingo, etc.

Quote: Paigowdan

A casino sells, - as a wonderful service to you and to the general public, - gambling action in the forms of slots, table games, keno, bingo, etc.

Gambling is not a service, Dan. It's a legalized vice,
nothing more. You can buff up that image all you
like, it's still a pretty low life business.

Quote: Paigowdan

A casino sells, - as a wonderful service to you and to the general public, - gambling action in the forms of slots, table games, keno, bingo, etc.

You are sick if you think its a Wonderful service. Its a predatory service that is filled with just as much scum as you think the AP world is.

Quote: Twirdman

Again though if its just entertainment then why pretend people can get an edge.

Who pretends that the players' have the edge??!!
The casinos??!! PFFFT!
They do no such thing. In fact, they hang chandeliers to show you what your money bought them. Bam, right in your face, you cannot miss it.

The edge is not the entertainment. The gambling activity is. In fact, most people don't know or care what the house edge is on their favorite games.

Quote: Twirdman

When I go to a movie there is no lying I am told I will get to watch movie X and I pay Y dollars.

First, you are gambling on whether or not the movie was crap or was worth it, AND....you can ONLY lose if you look at it in money terms. It those terms the movie house is not lying: "Yes, it will cost you $10.50 to see a movie...."
Secondly, the casinos aren't lying - they'll tell you straight up: "You Are Gambling Here!" - "You may win or you may lose." As in NO guarantees that YOU will win.

Quote: Twirdman

I go to a casino and they try to pretend I can get an advantage at baccarat by tracking and the simple fact of the matter is you really can't.

No, the casino never said that writing the last hands' results down on a piece of paper "gives YOU the edge!"
People's superstitions provide that lying to them!

Quote: Twirdman

They clearly do this to get more people to play so they are lying to people to get their money.

No they're not. They aren't saying that or ANYTHING with tracking boards on Baccarat or Roulette.
It's just a custom and the conventions of the gamblers who expect it to be there. I don't use the Baccarat board when I play Baccarat, - do you?? I certain see no statement in it being there expect its convention of being there for the people who like it. It's like a waterfall or bird bath fountain in front of an old apartment building.

Quote: rainman

This always turns into PGD against the world.

I wonder what this means? How can everybody be wrong but Dan? This reminds me on when they have an addiction intervention, the only person that thinks they don't have a problem, is the person with the problem.

Quote: AxelWolf

You are sick if you think its a Wonderful service. Its a predatory service that is filled with just as much scum as you think the AP world is.

Yup, predatory is the key word here. I've
been on that soapbox for years, ever started
a thread about it.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, that's within the Buffet rules. They're generally fine with gluttons within reason.

The buffet will only 86 you if you put food into your pockets, - as that's AP play.

Getting more in return from something than what you put into it is AP. If you pay $19.99 for a buffet and eat $40 worth of food, that's +EV for you and -EV for the buffet.

Putting food into your pockets is flat out theft. Taking chips from the dealer's tray is theft.

Quote: EvenBob

Yup, predatory is the key word here. I've
been on that soapbox for years, ever started
a thread about it.

Yet they do offer a service and I think it's fine. If Dan can honestly say he would love to see his kids going to casinos all the time. I have nothing because I cant think of anyone who really thinks this is a good idea.

Quote: AxelWolf

Yet they do offer a service and I think it's fine. .

Gambling is NOT a service, it's not part of
the service industry, that's ludicrous. It's
legalized vice, nothing more.

"A service business is a business that sells services directly to consumers or other businesses."

A casino sells nothing.

Quote: rainman

This always turns into PGD against the world

Ha! The world. That's funny. You can say a snowball in hell.
But it isn't me against the world. It's all about swimming with debate in this peanuts gallery. What we say and argue really doesn't matter, as it is how we spend our money, and for us it's often at casinos. This board ain't the world, it is the peanuts gallery that we know and love.

Quote: AxelWolf

I wonder what this means? How can everybody be wrong but Dan? This reminds me on when they have an addiction intervention, the only person that thinks they don't have a problem, is the person with the problem.

I can be wrong, I can be right. But this is about debate, argument, and POV.
Hey, you guys might be right - gambling might not be entertainment or hospitality that I think it is. I mean You guys sure make it sound like misery and larceny...(to which the chorus chimes, "Yes indeed: the casinos are the evil empires and the customers are dupes, and the only honorable thing is to rip them off with honor, but why others (non-pro's) keep going is a real mystery to me! It can't be entertaining!")
Win or lose, I have fun and I go to casinos.

Quote: EvenBob

Gambling is NOT a service, it's not part of
the service industry, that's ludicrous. It's
legalized vice, nothing more.

"A service business is a business that sells services directly to consumers or other businesses."

A casino sells nothing.

it's Entertainment.

Quote: AxelWolf

it's Entertainment.

Yes...........

What material thing do YOU leave with from the movies? A Water park? The museum? A visit to an amusement park? A concert?
Nothing except for less money 100% of the time!
With a casino, it's only 92% of the time!

Seriously, all the above, including casinos, it's all about entertainment, - and we vote with our wallets.

Survey says - based on our voting with our wallets - gaming is entertainment.

and this is why the pro's who treat it like a job aren't legit there. They really aren't there to gamble.

Quote: AxelWolf

it's Entertainment.

The only entertainment in a casino is getting
some schadenfreude from watching people
react to losing. Now that's entertainment.

Last Fri some old guy and his wife were walking
to their car and the guy was waving his arms
and yelling 'They took all my money! The M F'ers
took all my money!" I was greatly amused, made
my night..

Quote: Paigowdan

No, that's within the Buffet rules. They're generally fine with gluttons within reason.

The buffet will only 86 you if you put food into your pockets, - as that's AP play.

Do you think all AP play involves cheating. It is almost all the example of the glutton. Say a casino has 9/6 JOB video poker and on a point multiplier day I end up with over a 100% return. By playing the machine I am not cheating I'm playing the exact game to the best of my ability. Would you suggest I make many mistakes so the casino can make money, how is that fair. Same thing with progressives I see a progressive that makes the game positive am I simply not supposed to play it since you know that would be unfair.

Yeah stealing crab legs from the casino is wrong just like stealing chips from a tray is or using a lightwand is. That is not what the vast majority of APs are doing though. They see an opportunity that the casino designed and they take advantage of it. Thats like a buffet offering unlimited lobsters then complaining when you ate more than 1. You set up the rules I followed them.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes...........

What material thing do YOU leave with from the movies? A Water park? The museum? A visit to an amusement park? A concert?
Nothing except for less money 100% of the time!
With a casino, it's only 92% of the time!

Seriously, all the above, including casinos, it's all about entertainment, - and we vote with our wallets.

Survey says - based on our voting with our wallets - gaming is entertainment.

Yes but, its not to often people get addicted to water parks and destroy many lives over it. Water parks don't design slides to be addictive like crack and take all of your money. I rarely hear about high roller water park'ers being offered hookers, drugs other illegal activities. Casinos really don't care about entertainment value they only care about taking your money. If the casinos didn't have to offer anything but machines and tables they wouldn't.

I'd cater to a niche market of smokers. A smokers welcome casino.

Quote: rainman

This always turns into PGD against the world.

Yes it does, but he brings it on himself. Dan must desire these discussions because every couple months, he makes some judgemental remark referring to AP's and card counters in some negative light, knowing it will lead to this very discussion.

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes but, its not to often people get addicted to water parks and destroy many lives over it. Water parks don't design slides to be addictive like crack and take all of your money. I rarely hear about high roller water park'ers being offered hookers, drugs other illegal activities. Casinos really don't care about entertainment value they only care about taking your money. If the casinos didn't have to offer anything but machines and tables they wouldn't.

Casinos??!!
That's all any business is concerned about, to prosper, profit, and stay in business. Truly, casino operators have some nerve operating profitably for their employees and shareholders - just like any other business.

Quote: kewlj

Yes it does, but he brings it on himself. Dan must desire these discussions because every couple months, he makes some judgemental remark referring to AP's and card counters in some negative light, knowing it will lead to this very discussion.

I think Dan is a moral person and the only
way he can continue to work in the industry
is to convince himself his side of it is all
angels and light. He's knows what it really
is and he's in denial about it.

Quote: EvenBob

I think Dan is a moral person and the only
way he can continue to work in the industry
is to convince himself his side of it is all
angels and light. He's knows what it really
is and he's in denial about it.

I always thought it was because, he was some kind of table games designer, who had some games crushed by AP's

Quote: AxelWolf

I always thought it was because, he was some kind of table games designer, who had some games crushed by AP's

He has EZ Paigow, and it's a recurring nightmare
that AP's are beating his game. Maybe it's a reality,
but he can't prove it.

Quote: EvenBob

I think Dan is a moral person and the only
way he can continue to work in the industry
is to convince himself his side of it is all
angels and light. He's knows what it really
is and he's in denial about it.

Bob, are you kidding? There are some cut-throat people in this business, as well as a few saints.

Quote: EvenBob

He has EZ Paigow, and it's a recurring nightmare
that AP's are beating his game. Maybe it's a reality,
but he can't prove it.

Bob, it's Pai Gow Poker - one deal per round. You can't count it or AP it.
You can only play it.

deleted

Quote: AxelWolf

I always thought it was because, he was some kind of table games designer, who had some games crushed by AP's

No, none actually. All poker and Pai Gow, one round per deal, as stated.

Now Switch over here can tell you some hold issues due to AP-ing on his Blackjack games.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Wrong.

Oh, you mean go around the table and ask everybody what cards they're holding - collusion AP play. Gotcha.

Quote: DRich

My casino would all be 6:5 with CSM's. I think I would be able to convince my competition to do the same.

I would not have a poker machine over 98%. I don't care if the video poker players complain because those aren't the players that are profitable anyway.

Video slots would be at 87% and my promotions would be very biased to the slot players.

Lot's of Carnival table games.

Gary Loveman, you're posting here now?

Quote: Paigowdan

However, BJ came to be before its counting weakness was known (thanks to Edward O. Thorpe), and the only way to "change the paytable" on a counter is to back him off. If he's not counting, or counting badly, he may stay. If he's effective in his disallowed-on-the-game AP play, he gets backed off. And he is told the rules "You are too good for us, Sir! You play so Well! Goodnight!"

Completely wrong. You can use a CSM. Or make blackjack pay 6:5. Or even set the table minimum to be the same as the table maximum.

Imagine this scenario and see if you can answer a couple questions. Player A and Player B both sit down at a blackjack table. Player A plays near perfect basic strategy and adjusts his bet size based on his own whimsical reasoning. Player B does exactly the same thing

Which one should be backed off because they are breaking the rules of the casino? Which one should be allowed to continue playing because he is not breaking any rules?

Quote: TomG

Completely wrong. You can use a CSM. Or make blackjack pay 6:5. Or even set the table minimum to be the same as the table maximum.

When Card counting first came into the picture, there were neither CSM machines nor did floormen or execs know then what to do.

I know well the defenses of a CSM, penetration depth, changing rules, jump bet tracking, et al. I've read The theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin, know the "Illustrious 18", changing strategy with the count, camouflage techniques, etc. I earlier mentioned in this thread CSMs and 6:5 payouts as resulting responses. I was describing the time of post-Thorpe/pre-defenses when casino management was in both a quandary and in a panic, when all they did then was back off or even back-room people for a while, - a great deal of it in hostile frustration with a lot of lucky ploppies caught up in it.

Quote: TomG

Imagine this scenario and see if you can answer a couple questions. Player A and Player B both sit down at a blackjack table. Player A plays near perfect basic strategy and adjusts his bet size based on his own whimsical reasoning. Player B does exactly the same thing.

Neither. Random bet adjustments that don't follow the count are a non-flag. So is keeping the same strategy without regard to the count (like NOT hitting certain stiffs based on count, or taking insurance on a high count). Thorpe and others describe the strategy changes based on count/composition.
And non-counting players generally play with the streak as the count may be descending.

Quote: TomG

Which one should be backed off because they are breaking the rules of the casino? Which one should be allowed to continue playing because he is not breaking any rules?

Neither one, again. They weren't breaking the rules of the casino because they were not varying their bets with the count. It is varying your bets (and sometimes your strategy) with the count that reveals the card counter actions. If you are not determined to be counting, you should never be backed off or even flat betted for playing a clean game and getting lucky.

Dan, Why do casinos have countable games at all?

Hey, Dan,

Can you show me which casino has it written down in its house rules for blackjack that the player may not keep track of the cards in his head? Every casino web site and pamphlet I have ever seen talks about hitting, standing, doubling, splitting, and busting. But no mention of "you must forget the cards you have seen before playing the next hand."

Similarly, can you show me the gaming enforcement codes or laws from any jurisdiction that says players must try to forget which cards they have seen before playing the next hand?

Thanks.

Quote: Axelwolf

Dan, Why do casinos have countable games at all?

They generally don't in some areas (single deck deal per round games), though some games (blackjack and its side bets) have been around for so long, pre-dating the industry's awareness of this issue, so games were back then design with little though to it, so a cottage industry of AP came to be, branching out into hole-carding, edge sorting, etc.

Blackjack, a game that became popular in casinos/gambling halls around the turn of the century (WWI) and pushed out Faro as the prominent gambling hall card game, was long thought to be safe - and was not played on a compositional basis - until Edward Thorpe codified and popularized the technique on a wide scale, when blackjack was already entrenched and a mainstay.

Casinos reacted by not removing blackjack, but by disallowing the practice of card counting, where raising and lowering bets in synchronicity with the count was the clue that this disallowed practice was going on. In an Earlier Vegas, some backrooming was done, which is despicable, later replaced by flat-betting, backing off, or expelling (politely) the offenders.

As casinos are private property and not government institutions, casinos have a right to back off or eject players, so as long it is not on a racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination basis, as wagers are entered into on a mutually agreeable basis. In other word, casinos do not have to take your action in Nevada if you are not - in their view - playing by their house rules and guidelines, of which they will inform you if this issue comes up.

There is plenty of this information at blackjack-specific and AP sites. See as a good start www.apheat.net. and blackjackinfo.com

Quote: sodawater

Hey, Dan,

Can you show me which casino has it written down in its house rules for blackjack that the player may not keep track of the cards in his head? Every casino web site and pamphlet I have ever seen talks about hitting, standing, doubling, splitting, and busting. But no mention of "you must forget the cards you have seen before playing the next hand."

I could be glib and say, "well, why don't you walk into a casino blackjack pit and see what they tell you?" They may simply say no, or say that neither card counting or the mafia exist, or just smile at you. They may even take your picture via surveillance.

Casinos have many policies, procedures, memoranda, and guidelines on this which are internal use documentation, some of which may be proprietary from game protection consultants (Griffith and other agencies). Casinos do not share this with people who walk in off the street or who are non-employees of a certain level; in other words, you cannot take a look at their internal 'book' alerts, surveillance notices of flagged players, and the like, unless of course you're a shift manager, a surveillance worker, casino manager, table games director, etc.,
Dealers and floormen get alerts on characters and recent situations to look out for, team play, or would be told this information by floor if on certain games, particularly blackjack.

Quote: sodawater

Similarly, can you show me the gaming enforcement codes or laws from any jurisdiction that says players must try to forget which cards they have seen before playing the next hand?

No. (Who the hell am I - your attorney in game defense over here? you as well as everyone else here has access to Google, and there are countless AP sites that cover this.)

But while card counting is legal, (and forms of hole-carding or other techniques may not be), it is also legal for the casino operator to back off or expel any player deemed unsuitable to play at a property for reasons that are both valid for the operator and explained to the perpetrator. you do not get to read and sign behavior agreement forms or contracts with an operator when you walk in to sit down and player. If there's a problem or you're a problem, it will be brought to your attention.

As I mentioned above:
Casinos have many policies, procedures, memoranda, and guidelines on this which are internal use documentation, some of which may be proprietary from game protection consultants (Griffith and other agencies). Casinos do not share this with people who walk in off the street or who are non-employees of a certain level; in other words, you cannot take a look at their internal 'book' alerts, surveillance notices of flagged players, and the like, unless of course you're a shift manager, a surveillance worker, casino manager, table games director, etc.,
Dealers and floormen get alerts on characters and recent situations to look out for, team play, or would be told this information by floor if on certain games, particularly blackjack.

There is plenty of this information at blackjack-specific and AP sites. See as a good start www.apheat.net and blackjackinfo.com.

Quote: sodawater

Thanks.

you're welcome.

Quote: Paigowdan

They generally don't, though some games (blackjack and its side bets) have been around for so long, pre-dating the industry's awareness of this issue, so games were back then design with little though to it, so a cottage industry of AP came to be, branching out into hole-carding, edge sorting, etc.

Blackjack, a game that became popular in casinos/gambling halls around the turn of the century (WWI) and pushed out Faro as the prominent gambling hall card game, was long thought to be safe - and was not played on a compositional basis - until Edward Thorpe codified and popularized the technique on a wide scale, when blackjack was already entrenched and a mainstay.

Casinos reacted by not removing blackjack, but by disallowing the practice of card counting, where raising and lowering bets in synchronicity with the count was the clue that this disallowed practice was going on. In an Earlier Vegas, some backrooming was done, which is despicable, later replaced by flat-betting, backing off, or expelling (politely) the offenders.

As casino are private property and not government institutions, casinos have a right to back off or eject players, so as long it is not on a racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination basis, as wagers are entered into on a mutually agreeable basis. In other word, casinos do not have to take your action in Nevada if you are not - in their view - playing by their house rules and guidelines, of which they will inform you if this issue comes up.

There is plenty of this information at blackjack-specific and AP sites. See as a good start www.apheat.net. and blackjackinfo.com




Casinos have many policies, procedures, memoranda, and guidelines on this which are internal use documentation, some of which may be proprietary from game protection consultants (Griffith and other agencies). Casinos do not share this with people who walk in off the street or who are non-employees of a certain level; in other words, you cannot take a look at their internal 'book' alerts, surveillance notices of flagged players, and the like, unless of course you're a shift manager, a surveillance worker, casino manager, table games director, etc.,
Dealers and floormen get alerts on characters and recent situations to look out for, team play, or would be told this information by floor if on certain games, particularly blackjack.


No. (Who the hell am I - your attorney in game defense over here? you as well as everyone else here has access to Google, and there are countless AP sites that cover this.)

But while card counting is legal, (and forms of hole-carding or other techniques may not be), it is also legal for the casino operator to back off or expel any player deemed unsuitable to play at a property for reasons that are both valid for the operator and explained to the perpetrator.

As I mentioned above:
Casinos have many policies, procedures, memoranda, and guidelines on this which are internal use documentation, some of which may be proprietary from game protection consultants (Griffith and other agencies). Casinos do not share this with people who walk in off the street or who are non-employees of a certain level; in other words, you cannot take a look at their internal 'book' alerts, surveillance notices of flagged players, and the like, unless of course you're a shift manager, a surveillance worker, casino manager, table games director, etc.,
Dealers and floormen get alerts on characters and recent situations to look out for, team play, or would be told this information by floor if on certain games, particularly blackjack.

There is plenty of this information at blackjack-specific and AP sites. See as a good start www.apheat.net and blackjackinfo.com.



you're welcome.

I didnt really need a history lesson. Most people on this forum know the history and actually participated in counting and other things.

The casinos could just make all blackjack games uncountable. They don't because AP's have glamorized Black Jack and made more and more popular with the public so there is a demand for it. If all casinos thought they could get away with not offering it, they would. If not for AP's, I doubt you would have your JOB

Quote: Paigowdan

Baccarat's base game (Banker, Player, tie) is effectively uncountable, unlike Blackjack..

Which begs the question to be asked again. If the game is uncountable then why in the hell are you guys passing out pencils and paper? What the hell would that do for anybody? What? Are you guys hustlers? Are you punks trying to angle shoot someone? Put it up, Danny Boy. Oh, no!! Don't tell me. You punks wouldn't be trying to give someone false hope, would you? Danny Boy! Are you a hustler?

Quote: MathExtremist

Variance in results is expected -- it's gambling

You need to get the hell off your high horse. Any asshole game you put down is just a proposition. You put down the wrong proposition to me, I will run clean over your ass.