If I ran a casino...(Split thread)
Quote: AxelWolf....Then you toned it down, once I stated the wizard has been backed off. Your clear statement basically said many well respected gaming authority's (including Mike) are not class act's and are NOT operating on a high level in their life at all.
No. I was saying that:
1. They are not like Nelson Mandela (who was arrested and jailed for fighting true oppression), when backed off, and to think otherwise or in this vein is ludicrous.
2. That mistakes we have ALL made in our lives were NOT always of a high operational level. I was expelled from a Boston Red Sox-Yankees game as a young man because I was NOT operating on a high level on that day, that's for sure.
Quote: AXelWolfShould I make a list of fairly respected people who have been backed off?
Sure, you may indeed make a list of casino experts who were 86-ed from casino joints.
At best it can be said as a right of passage for them - many of whom supposedly work for the dark side.
And then we can compare the list to:
1. Rosa Parks;
2. Che Guevera;
3. Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn;
4. and countless other freedom fighters, and then say "This is what we are fighting for, People! Rise up against the oppressive casino and gambling halls, and take back the night so we can plunder some booty!"
What we are talking about here is the gambling industry, and basically the scamming of these gambling businesses for ill-gotten profit at other players and workers expense when we look at it, really.
Quote: AxelwolfWe could start off with Mission146 since he was the last person, I knew of that was backed off.
He's a great guy. I never said being backed off is shame for life, but a silly occurrence to have in a life, as everyone has of some sort.
Quote: AxelwolfThen we could follow that up with Bob Dancer, since he has been backed off and probably 86'ed many times.
No list would be complete without Bob and his breakfast escapades.
Quote: AxelwolfOr should we start in alphabetical order? Off the top of my head we could add Anthony Curtis to the list of people who have been 86'ed.
Awesome guy and a great industry promoter - God Bless him, really, - I love and respect how he promoted and popularized this great industry and town. However, his back-offs or 86's were not his high points, in comparison to his real achievements in the industry. We have to make this distinction.
Many great people have mug shots of some sort, but that neither defines them (unless you're Al Capone), nor is their body of work. And again, many backed-off people now work for the industry and its operators instead of against the industry and its operators.
--------------------
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'd put my casino next to yours and do just the opposite, then advertise why my place is better and get all your business :-). I'd be like Walmart.
There is a difference between low prices (fair games and edges), and allowing some business pilferage and selling that as an inducement, which raises process and costs.
Walmart does NOT advertise "Come and abscond with our stuff" to bring them in. They advertise Low prices. This is different.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'd put my casino next to yours and do just the opposite, then advertise why my place is better and get all your business :-). I'd be like Walmart.
I concede you would get five times the volume as mine, but I would make twice the profit. Why would anyone want to attract educated gamblers? The people that play at my casino have never heard of 6:5 or 3:2, nor will they understand probability and payback. My players play for fun and know they are due.
Now, Dan here, has revised his criteria in this thread a bit, including a new scenario, that we haven't heard before. If the casino is 'expelling' you you must be doing something wrong, something evil. Well, first if all, I, myself have never been 'expelled', 86ed or barred from a casino. I have only been asked not to play blackjack. But I have witnessed folks that were 'expelled', and the funny thing is some weren't even playing with an advantage. They were just players that varied their wagers. One was a progression player, wagering more each time he lost. The casino in question should have been giving him free room, food, beverage, but instead they 'expelled' him, to which he had no idea why. Lol
Now the thing that irks me, and I am sure I am a little overly sensitive to this is these judgemental people, like Dan, that want to judge me as some kind of bad person, because they don't like the way I play, completely within the rules of the game. What they really don't like us that I think. But, I will not stop thinking. God gave me a brain and in this country, I am allowed to use it. So instead, they try to paint me as a bad person.
I volunteer one day a week at a homeless shelter here in Vegas. It's funny, but not once have I seen Gary Loveman, James Murren or Frank Fertitta Jr (CEO's of Caesars, MGM and Stations Casinos) there volunteering. Lol. Back in August, one of the local radio stations had an event where they gave away 1000 back backs filled with school supplies to lower income kids. There were 4 sponsers to this event. Staples, Zappos, a third corporate sponser that I can't recall and myself, a low limit AP and apparently a bad person. You know who wasn't a sponser....Ceasars, MGM, nor Stations Casino (who claims to love locals). And we could have used them because there were far more kids that needed backpack than backpacks. So, Dan, who the hell are you or your industry to judge me or any AP's and put labels on anyone. I mean this industry and those associated with it specifically. You have some large testicles my friend.
Quote: DRichI concede you would get five times the volume as mine, but I would make twice the profit. Why would anyone want to attract educated gamblers? The people that play at my casino have never heard of 6:5 or 3:2, nor will they understand probability and payback. My players play for fun and know they are due.
There is a difference between educated gamblers and AP players, and this concept is unfathomable. They are honestly thought of as equivalent.
I see many players set their Pai Gow Hands like a tournament player, or properly raise on Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, etc. as educated players.
I also see slot players find and play good machines.
This is not AP, but it is also educated gambling.
Quote: kewljNow, Dan here, has revised his criteria in this thread a bit, including a new scenario, that we haven't heard before. If the casino is 'expelling you you must be doing something wrong, something evil. Well, first if all, I, myself have never been 'exoelled', 86ed or barred from a casino. I have only been asked not to play blackjack. But I have witnessed folks that were 'expelled', and the fulling thing is some weren't even playing with an advantage. They were just players that varied their wagers. One was a progression player, wagering more beach time he lost. The casino in question should have been giving him free room, food, beverage, but instead they 'expelled' him, to which he had no idea why. Lol
If you are backed off or 86-ed, you did something wrong in their [the operator's] eyes. No question on this. They don't want you there or playing certain games, and for their reasons.
Now, They might be right, and competent in their assessment, that you did something wrong in their assessment of you, - or they may be wrong, mistaken, and unfair, due to incompetence.
Quote: TheNightflyDan, once and for all, please get off your high horse and pull your head out of your backside. Being backed off for AP is nothing more than being at the mercy of a power-tripping starched shirt. It is not a felony or anything close - no worse than being asked to leave a theater for talking too loudly. YOU and those who think like you (a few as they may be) are the issue and the problem here, not the players you regard with such disdain.
High Horse?
Whose talking felonies here? You.
You were simply perceived to have done something unacceptable in their gambling hall, and were asked to leave. This is the long and short of it, but this is not a mark of distinction, - and it may also have been done by a casino worker simply doing his job in many cases. "We can't have that, sorry, good night." Kind of thing.
I'd say if you were asked to leave a gambling hall one's head might have been in the wrong place.
Millions of gamblers play without a problem, but some do have such back-off/86 problems.
Quote: sodawaterHa, APs "fleece" normal gamblers? Now I have heard it all. That is truly a perverse way of looking at it.
I guess "normal gamblers" haven't gotten the memo yet, because I have never seen a normal gambler object to someone else at the table being paid when he should have pushed or lost. Surely that normal gambler realizes that he will eventually pay for that mistake, right?
It's been said that card counters "fleece" regular blackjack players by wonging and letting the others play at a disadvantage. Does anyone feel this way?
You are suggesting that being backed off is something shameful. It is just a part of the AP life from time to time and no one but you seems to care. If asked kindly to leave, an AP will leave. On the other hand, if I was playing a game and adjusting my bets on gut feeling and I was asked to leave for no apparent reason, I'd raise a stink and rightly so. So, you as the casino can look at "backing off" for what it is, a bad business practice that you perceive to be necessary due to poor training of your employees. As we all know, if the casino workers did their job properly (from those who design the games to those who deal the games to those who supervise the games) then there would be no AP plays at table games and therefore no need to back anyone off. Once again I say that YOU are the problem here; fix the problem the right way - at the root and don't blame the players.Quote: PaigowdanHigh Horse?
Whose talking felonies here? You.
You were simply perceived to have done something unacceptable in their gambling hall, and were asked to leave. This is the long and short of it, but this is not a mark of distinction, - and it may also have been done by a casino worker simply doing his job in many cases. "We can't have that, sorry, good night." Kind of thing.
I'd say if you were asked to leave a gambling hall one's head might have been in the wrong place.
Millions of gamblers play without a problem, but some do have such back-off/86 problems.
1. The casinos offer games to wager on.
2. APs play those games the smartest way possible.
You consider AP "thieves" and similar to someone "sticking up a 7-11" because they play the games the casino offers BY THE EXACT RULES the casino offers?
That is where your morality fails. If a casino spreads a game, and I play that game to the best of my abilities, and within the rules of that game, I have done nothing wrong.
You can't ask people not to play the game to the best of their ability. That's what everyone is trying to do in a casino.
Quote: PaigowdanThere is a difference between educated gamblers and AP players, and this concept is unfathomable. They are honestly thought of as equivalent.
I see many players set their Pai Gow Hands like a tournament player, or properly raise on Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, etc. as educated players.
I also see slot players find and play good machines.
This is not AP, but it is also educated gambling.
Of course there is, but my casino would be targeting the uneducated. I wouldn't ban anyone from my casino, I would just make it unattractive to the more skilled players.
Quote: AxelWolfI always wondered how the Fiesta did over all, when they were AP friendly.
I played Fiesta when they had the Odyssey 4-Play FPDW and 101% Jokers. Those were the only two games that got action on the Odyssey's. One day the casino manager was giving someone a guided tour through the casino. I was on the Odyssey bank and heard him say to the guy "We're losing money on these machines."
Quote: PaigowdanAP is why we are stuck with 6:5 Blackjack
No. Dumass gamblers are why you are stuck with 6:5 blackjack. If nobody played they wouldn't spread it.
Quote: mickeycrimmI played Fiesta when they had the Odyssey 4-Play FPDW and 101% Jokers. Those were the only two games that got action on the Odyssey's. One day the casino manager was giving someone a guided tour through the casino. I was on the Odyssey bank and heard him say to the guy "We're losing money on these machines."
Did you believe him?
Quote: PaigowdanIt's business, not personal anymore.
And it makes the game fairer for clean players who play in good faith.
It'll bring back 3:2 BJ, but AP can't play.
It'll bring back better comps.
It'll bring back lower house edges....as....
True gamblers will replace true professionals, - as a true professional is NOT a true gambler.
There will be....just gamblers.
Instead of going to the casino why don't you just mail them a check. It will save you a lot of time.
I know they were losing on a lot of the machines, but locals swarmed that place. Pros practically lived in that place I know one that actually did for a very long time. I bet you have head of him hes not well liked and very notorious. (Ill PM you) the $1 10/7 prog at the bar had tons of action the place was always busy with locals. I was just wondering how they did overall during that time. I think they did well.Quote: mickeycrimmNo. Dumass gamblers are why you are stuck with 6:5 blackjack. If nobody played they wouldn't spread it.
Quote: Paigowdan
Edit: To get back to this thread's thrust [cough!] - If I ran a casino, I would:
1. Keep Shenanigans to a minimum, as would anyone. I would reasonably police it without apologies, or causing need to apologize. Those who need to leave will leave. bub-bye.
2. Keep the clean players, and even the ploppies, all happy.
3. Tell the pro's their skills are better spent on a legit carrier. a real job.[/
If I owned the casino your application for casino manager would go right in the garbage can."Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Quote: sodawaterHere is the bottom line:
1. The casinos offer games to wager on.
2. APs play those games the smartest way possible.
No.
There's a little more going on than this.
1. Play by the rules....versus
2. break the rules with the full intention of getting extra for yourself.
#1 allows you to stay in good graces.
#2 gets you backed off or kicked out.
And I am actually not amazed that this distinction cannot be made here by many.
Quote: sodawaterYou consider AP "thieves" and similar to someone "sticking up a 7-11" because they play the games the casino offers BY THE EXACT RULES the casino offers?
No.
All of these things involve NOT playing by the rules, (and this is actually different) - hence the back offs, the involvement of supervision, being told to leave, etc. As I've said, a back off, or an 86-ing does indicate that there is some sort of problem or "issue." Whether you agree that it is either wrongful or righteous to do is immaterial. A back off or an 86-ing consistently indicates a problem with the player at the property.
Quote: sodawaterThat is where your morality fails. If a casino spreads a game, and I play that game to the best of my abilities, and within the rules of that game, I have done nothing wrong.
Now, about this "best of my ability" issue: a player who plays by the rules, versus a player who breaks the house (casino) rules can BOTH claim to themselves, "But I'm just playing the best I can by the rules!!!!" - and one may actually be mistaken.
Quote: sodawaterYou can't ask people not to play the game to the best of their ability. That's what everyone is trying to do in a casino.
I'm not at ALL asking people to do that.
I DO expect all gamblers to play to the best of their ability. I also expect that they follow the house rules or expect to be backed off.
You see, there's a difference between applying your best ability and attention within the framework of the house rules, protocols, etc., versus applying your abilities to things disallowed by the house. Saying that, "because I am trying my best, I therefore must be within the house rules" is not a fundamentally true statement. Applying yourself, and following the house rules, are really two different things here.
Quote: Paigowdan
Edit: To get back to this thread's thrust [cough!] - If I ran a casino, I would:
1. Keep Shenanigans to a minimum, as would anyone. I would reasonably police it without apologies, or causing need to apologize. Those who need to leave will leave. bub-bye.
2. Keep the clean players, and even the ploppies, all happy.
3. Tell the pro's their skills are better spent on a legit carrier. a real job.
Quote: mickeycrimmIf I owned the casino your application for casino manager would go right in the garbage can.
1. I wouldn't work for you.
2. you're not Steve Wynn.
Quote: DRich[On the difference between educated gamblers and AP players]Of course there is, but my casino would be targeting the uneducated. I wouldn't ban anyone from my casino, I would just make it unattractive to the more skilled players.
I agree. But I would allow all non-pro players, skilled and educated or otherwise, but make it unattractive to "pro's".
And before you claim "educated player" is the same as a pro, there is a difference between an "educated player" and a "professional" player.
Quote: MathExtremistNot really, especially not on slots. Suppose a progressive slot game has a 95% overall payback. If APs only play when the meter pushes the game over 100%, that depresses the average RTP for the other gamblers. This problem was far worse with the accumulator slots back in the 1990s, when you needed to collect, say, 10 badges to trigger a bonus round. Because the number of already-collected badges were displayed on the screen, savvy players would jump on a machine when there were 7 or 8, play until hitting the bonus round, and then cash out. That was a hugely +EV play. The other players started with an empty badge collection and had a significantly worse RTP than the par sheet indicated.
ME, you explained my motus operandi pretty good. I'm a wonger from hell.
There are tons of situations where people were following the rules of the casino perfectly and doing nothing more then playing a progressive or promotion. Texas station came and mass 86'ed about 15 people at one time, who came early to play a promotion and no it was not one big team. Some were not even AP's. Explain how they were breaking the rules?Quote: PaigowdanNo.
There's a little more going on than this.
1. Play by the rules....versus
2. break the rules with the full intention of getting extra for yourself.
#1 allows you to stay in good graces.
#2 gets you backed off or kicked out.
And I am actually not amazed that this distinction cannot be made here by many.
No.
All of these things involve NOT playing by the rules, (and this is actually different) - hence the back offs, the involvement of supervision, being told to leave, etc. As I've said, a back off, or an 86-ing does indicate that there is some sort of problem or "issue." Whether you agree that it is either wrongful or righteous to do is immaterial. A back off or an 86-ing consistently indicates a problem with the player at the property.
Now, about this "best of my ability" issue: a player who plays by the rules, versus a player who breaks the house (casino) rules can BOTH claim to themselves, "But I'm just playing the best I can by the rules!!!!" - and one may actually be mistaken.
I'm not at ALL asking people to do that.
I DO expect all gamblers to play to the best of their ability. I also expect that they follow the house rules or expect to be backed off.
You see, there's a difference between applying your best ability and attention within the framework of the house rules, protocols, etc., versus applying your abilities to things disallowed by the house. Saying that, "because I am trying my best, I therefore must be within the house rules" is not a fundamentally true statement. Applying yourself, and following the house rules, are really two different things here.
Quote: AxelWolfThere are tons of situations where people were following the rules of the casino perfectly and doing nothing more then playing a progressive or promotion. Texas station came and mass 86'ed about 15 people at one time, who came early to play a promotion and no it was not one big team. Some were not even AP's. Explain how they were breaking the rules?
Casino managers can be idiots, and wrong innocent players via their incompetence. That happens too. These managers kill the good will of the joint, and wrong many clean, non-pro players.
Oh, by the way, don't try that "house rule" crap again. A rule is a rule and I'm either breaking it or I'm not.
Some AP don't break any rules what so ever playing things like Progressives.Quote: PaigowdanCasino managers can be idiots, and wrong innocent players via their incompetence. That happens too. These managers kill the good will of the joint, and wrong many clean, non-pro players.
Quote: TheNightflyHey Dan, what rule am I not following when I keep track of cards in my head and adjust my bets according to a guideline that I've devised? Please tell me what rule I am breaking by doing this.
The anti-card counting rule, where you take the deliberate action to raise and lower your betting amounts in parallel with the count, in order to get extra money from the table. That rule. And it is real. You may be told, "Sorry, sir, you are done for the night."
Quote: TheNightflyOh, by the way, don't try that "house rule" crap again. A rule is a rule and I'm either breaking it or I'm not.
This is correct. A rule is a rule, and you are either breaking a rule or not breaking a rule. And if you are breaking a rule, you may be notified of this on the game, and be told you are done for the night. This has actually happened to people in casinos, now.
Quote: AxelWolfSome AP don't break any rules what so ever playing things like Progressives.
yes. Absolutely true. Let these people play without any hindrance or problem.
Quote: PaigowdanWhat we are talking about here is the gambling industry, and basically the scamming of these gambling businesses for ill-gotten profit at other players and workers expense when we look at it, really.
So casinos separating dumass gamblers from their money is honorable. But AP's separating casinos from their money is dishonorable. Could you explain this logic to us. Explain it to us like we are three year olds.
Quote: Paigowdan
AP's screw it up for other gamblers more than the house because ALL gamblers will pay for ALL the bills if our lights are still on. AP is why we are stuck with 6:5 Blackjack, high house edges, bad comps, and shitty penetration, because your fellow gamblers [ploppies] always pay the bill and you don't give a damn, thinking you're really hitting the casinos.
The economist would say you are completely wrong. Every business wants to charge the highest prices the customers are willing to pay. The only reason casinos have 6:5 blackjack is because people are willing to sit at those tables. There are plenty of non-AP blackjack players who won't lose a single penny to a 6:5 table. Plenty will only sit at a 3:2 table and play perfect basic strategy. Doing that, the casino will win 0.38% of all money bet, which is a lot more money than they could make at a 6:5 table if the non-APs refused to pay the higher price
Of course, the economist would also say every customer wants to pay the lowest price the business is willing to charge
Quote: kewljThis discussion is always the same, no matter how it originates. People like Dan, who share the industries view point, want to make a case that AP's are bad people, doing something evil. They want to equate thinking and playing with an advantage to cheating. When a person play chess, do he not strategize and come up with the best plan if attack? Do you not do this in sports as well? You come up with the best way of playing, within the rules of the game. Why should blackjack, or any gambling be any different? As a card counter, I am playing 100% within the rules. I hit, stand, split, and double within the rules and my wagers all fall within the posted table minimums and maximums. So what is the problem? How am I a bad person?
I volunteer one day a week at a homeless shelter here in Vegas.
Thank God we had James Grosjean, who wouldn't take an out of court settlement, but instead made a judge come up with a ruling, to set these guys straight.
When I die I'm thinking about leaving whatever is left to the Las Vegas Rescue Mission. I couldn't tell you how many meals I ate there when I was on the skids. I could always count on them.
Dan, this post is so full of crap that I'm amazed a reasonably intelligent person like you would actually be foolish enough to write it.Quote: PaigowdanThe anti-card counting rule, where you take the deliberate action to raise and lower your betting amounts in parallel with the count, in order to get extra money from the table. That rule. And it is real. You may be told, "Sorry, sir, you are done for the night."
This is correct. A rule is a rule, and you are either breaking a rule or not breaking a rule. And if you are breaking a rule, you may be notified of this on the game, and be told you are done for the night. This has actually happened to people in casinos, now.
What AP options (table games) do players have?
Problem: BJ, - Counting
Solution: CSM's
Problem: BJ, 3CP, Various: Hole Carding
Solution: Don't flash cards
You see Dan, once you (the industry) does what it needs to do, it will have no issues. Don't blame a player for using information from a flashed card... DON'T FLASH CARDS. Don't offer a $10-$1,000 limit and then scold a player for spreading their bets.
You are the problem Dan. The industry can close up every hole TODAY if it really wants to... but you'd rather play the game and pretend you are on high moral ground. You - the casino - high moral ground. That's rich.
The woman who next has to pull the slot machine's handle and wipe her hands to do it.Quote: EvenBobWho doesn't like pizza and beer.
Seriously. Even the remote hinterlands of Hendertucky are offering to bring your meals to you at your slot machine. They offer oriental express stuff plus egg roll plus coffee. Some offer eyeopener breakfasts too.
Quote: mickeycrimmI played Fiesta when they had the Odyssey 4-Play FPDW and 101% Jokers. Those were the only two games that got action on the Odyssey's. One day the casino manager was giving someone a guided tour through the casino. I was on the Odyssey bank and heard him say to the guy "We're losing money on these machines."
AxiomOfChoice: Did you believe him?
Absolutely. Those two games were being pounded by full time mini pros. No ploppie action at all. Most every one was playing two machines. I can't remember what I made but it was pretty good. I was working a December promotion where the points you ran could be converted to cash. It worked out to 0.6%. Except for me. I found two machines that were racking double points. I guess that makes me a scumbag.
If some players are winning regularly, then the casino should look into the game, rather than accusing the player of having committed a crime. If inefficiencies exist within a game that enables the astute player to win, then the casino is to blame, not the player. These days, greed and arrogance has advanced to the point that the casinos are blaming and attempting to criminalize the patrons that appear to regularly win. Erroneous and slanderous information is often collected, stored, and shared between casinos that reads like a criminal profile, even when a successful gambler has broken no laws. Such information demonizes far too many people that use their brain when they gamble. Bitter, cynical, and arrogant staff also contribute to the patron abuse.
Quote: AxelWolfI know they (Fiesta) were losing on a lot of the machines, but locals swarmed that place. Pros practically lived in that place I know one that actually did for a very long time. I bet you have head of him hes not well liked and very notorious. (Ill PM you) the $1 10/7 prog at the bar had tons of action the place was always busy with locals. I was just wondering how they did overall during that time. I think they did well.
The place was jamming when I was there. And it was December when the rest of Las Vegas is slow. That dollar 10/7 progressive had five meters, all running at 0.1% I believe. I know one player who did quite well on it. This was the late nineties. I just worked the December promotion then moved on. I don't know how well the house did. But the scuttlebutt with AP's was the place was worth $50,000 a year to a mini pro.
Quote: PaigowdanThe anti-card counting rule, where you take the deliberate action to raise and lower your betting amounts in parallel with the count, in order to get extra money from the table. That rule. And it is real. You may be told, "Sorry, sir, you are done for the night."
Where does the house have this rule posted?
Quote: mickeycrimmSo casinos separating dumass gamblers from their money is honorable.
Yes, exactly. Same as movie houses separating dumbass film lovers from their money, or restaurants separating dumbass gluttons from their money, and oil companies separating dumbass drivers at gas stations from their money, and what have you. Pick a business to rip off. Casinos are actually honorable as they also pay the dumbass gamblers when they win, and provide them entertainment, and good and fair house edges, and clean rooms, and clean movie theaters, and quick cocktail waitress service, and the like. If I were to tell you that the Gaming Industry is actually a great and legitimate Industry providing entertainment services, you'd think I was crazy for having this position.
Quote: mickeycrimmBut AP's separating casinos from their money is dishonorable.
Ah, Yes, exactly. Right again.
Petty scammers of gambling halls who believe they are robin-Hood like, actually. On the same level as scamming a hotel out of $10 breakfast, or skipping out on a restaurant bill, or loading Buffet food into your coat pockets. Also using your brains to the best of your abilities when you get away with that, too.
Quote: Paigowdan
Petty scammers of gambling halls who believe they are robin-Hood like, actually. On the same level as scamming a hotel out of $10 breakfast, or skipping out on a restaurant bill, or loading Buffet food into your coat pockets. Also using your brains to the best of your abilities when you get away with that, too.
Its nothing like stealing food yeah you have some cheats who would break rules like the guy with the light wands but that is not the majority of what is happening. Its like a competitive eater or a sumo wrestler going to a buffet. Yeah he is eating a lot more than others but he isn't breaking the rules and it is disingenuous to call him a thief or a conman. He is simply playing to the best of his abilities and if that allows him to win then maybe you back him off so you don't lose money but he is not a thief.
Quote: mickeycrimmME, you explained my motus operandi pretty good. I'm a wonger from hell.
Right, and that's why we don't design games like that anymore (except online where the server stores your game state separately).
Who is we? games are still coming out like this.Quote: MathExtremistRight, and that's why we don't design games like that anymore (except online where the server stores your game state separately).
Quote: KeyserIf I ran a casino I would stop criminalizing the intelligent players.
So would I. But getting caught counting cards, or hole carding, and getting backed off for it is not intelligent.
Beating other players at poker is, proper play on slots is, correctly setting hands in Pai Gow poker is, etc.
Quote: KeyserIf some players are winning regularly, then the casino should look into the game, rather than accusing the player of having committed a crime.
We do, and we have. We released a game recently, where the house edge was purposely designed to be very low and very loose with "reasonably fair" play, and we really underestimated how intelligently players can play the game's fairly complex strategy near perfectly.
The tables were losing money horribly, people were ALL going home winners for the most part, and there were no seats to be had. Like a 24/7 2:1 blackjack shoe game with DOA, DAS, split to 4 hands, S17, just an awesomely player-friendly game, too much so. The casinos were losing money, and they all said:
we are holding ZERO Percent, if not LOSING most days! Adjust the base game NOW or these games are outta here!
And NO customer was blamed or backed off. Because they played by the rules.
We adjusted the game, made three more pay tables for the main bets' payouts, and installed the toughest table (table #4), and now....the games are holding high 20's, - around 28% - 29%, with the same action, and everyone's very happy.
Quote: KeyserIf inefficiencies exist within a game that enables the astute player to win, then the casino is to blame, not the player.
As we have seen, above.
However, BJ came to be before its counting weakness was known (thanks to Edward O. Thorpe), and the only way to "change the paytable" on a counter is to back him off. If he's not counting, or counting badly, he may stay. If he's effective in his disallowed-on-the-game AP play, he gets backed off. And he is told the rules "You are too good for us, Sir! You play so Well! Goodnight!"
Quote: KeyserThese days, greed and arrogance has advanced to the point that the casinos are blaming and attempting to criminalize the patrons that appear to regularly win. Erroneous and slanderous information is often collected, stored, and shared between casinos that reads like a criminal profile, even when a successful gambler has broken no laws.
Yes, it's just like Living in Communist East Germany's Berlin, under the watchful eye on the East German Stasi secret police, clearly. You were counting, so you get backed off, and get told to choose another game in the casino or leave. Oh, the horrors!
Quote: KeyserSuch information demonizes far too many people that use their brain when they gamble. Bitter, cynical, and arrogant staff also contribute to the patron abuse.
The second part I agree with, - no need to mistreat customers who were never really "customers," now.
But demonized? So, if some floorman says to another floorman, "That clown on 3rd base on BJ #17 in the grey shirt and glasses is a known counter, this just casino business, not secret police work. He gets backed off, flat betted, or asked to leave, or told to play Craps instead, and it's a violation of his human rights. I really don't think so.
Quote: AxelWolfWho is we? games are still coming out like this.
"We" are the slot vendors who made it through the 1990s. I was at SGIC then. Nobody with any sense is making beatable accumulator slots anymore. That doesn't mean that everyone has any sense, however.
This is the very thing that I have been talking about, the transformation if you will, that has taken place in the industry for the last decade when real casino people started being replaced by accountant, 'bottom line' types. They think they are running their business more efficiently, but they are really eliminating the 'gaming' part and destroying their own business model.
The casino business is NOT a service, entertainment business. Sure there are a few patrons that are very content to lose their money trip after trip, in the name of entertainment, but the majority of players that step into a casino, go there with the intent of leaving with more money than they came with. They go to gamble, not necessarily to be entertained. The industry (and Dan) needs to go back to accepting this concept, for it is what keeps them successful.
Quote: kewljI think part of the problem is that Dan thinks of the casino business as an entertainment service industry, but it's not. It is a gaming/gambling industry. And as a gaming/gambling industry the 'store' doesn't make a profit off of each and every customer as it does in a traditional service or sales industry. Some customers get the better of the 'store'. It is the nature of the business and built into the business model. It seems that not only does Dan not accept this idea, but he takes it personally when a player wins and wants to change that model to more closely resemble a service/sales industry model, where the store makes a profit off of each and every customer. And this is the very thing that I have been talking about, then trans formation if you will that has taken place in the industry for the last decade when real casino people started being replaced by accountant, 'bottom line types. They think they ate running their business more efficiently, but they are really eliminating the 'gaming' part and destroying their own business model.
The casino business is NOT a service, entertainment business. Sure there are a few patrons that are very content to lose their money trip after trip, in the name of entertainment, but the majority of players that step into a casino, go there with the intent of leaving with more money than they came with. They go to gamble, not necessarily to be entertained.
Variance in results is expected -- it's gambling. The distinction needs to be made between the store making actual profit from each customer vs. the store having the edge over each customer vs. the store having the edge in the aggregate over all customers. Nobody expects the first. Many casino operators want the second option, but if I'm running the show, I'm aiming for the third scenario such that I maximize my overall profits. If a certain percentage of AP play increases my overall bottom line, even if some of my customers are consistently beating me, then I'm happy to have them. This isn't the 1960s anymore. We can use analytics to determine the point of diminishing returns and adjust the games to that level. But that's a far more liberal level than "no APs allowed, all games are unbeatable."
Quote: MathExtremistRight, and that's why we don't design games like that anymore (except online where the server stores your game state separately).
Whichever outfit you work for might not be designing them anymore. But wongable games are still being designed by some manufacturers. I pick off about $50,000 a year wonging games. The state gets 5% of the gaming win. It's a publishable figure. I think they are taking in $60,000,000 a year. That means the casinos in Montana are making over a billion dollars a year. Wow!!! I'm just robbing those guys blind ain't I? No offense, ME, but you guys just go right on and cut your noses off to spite your faces.
Quote: kewljI think part of the problem is that Dan thinks of the casino business as an entertainment service industry, but it's not. It is a gaming/gambling industry.
Oh, I see. That's DIFFERENT.
The fact of the matter is that Gaming is a recreational/hospitality industry - as least for the non-pro players.
Quote: kewljAnd as a gaming/gambling industry the 'store' doesn't make a profit off of each and every customer as it does in a traditional service or sales industry.
And neither do stores themselves. They too have loss leaders and promotions.
Quote: kewljSome customers get the better of the 'store'.
Some by using coupons wisely, some by buying on sale, and some by shoplifting. I get it.
Quote: kewljIt is the nature of the business and built into the business model.
It's the nature of the business and business model to turn a profit and control loses.
Quote: kewljIt seems that not only does Dan not accept this idea, but he takes it personally when a player wins and wants to change that model to more closely resemble a service/sales industry model, where the store makes a profit off of each and every customer.
I accept this idea just fine. I was told to tighten a game from our operator's demands, so I tighten a game, and we replace a bunch of layouts with new pay tables - so that, on average, we make a profit from the customers. And there was nothing personally felt by me in all this. it was: "Dan, Install tighter pay tables"...done.
Quote: kewljThis is the very thing that I have been talking about, the transformation if you will, that has taken place in the industry for the last decade when real casino people started being replaced by accountant, 'bottom line' types. They think they are running their business more efficiently, but they are really eliminating the 'gaming' part and destroying their own business model.
Well, yeah, if you think casinos are supposed to operate as personal ATM's instead of gambling joints.
Quote: kewljThe casino business is NOT a service, entertainment business.
It sure as hell is.
A casino is not a hospital, a medical office, a body shop, a grocery store. It's a place where gamblers go to find their juice in gambling. This is a recreation, unless of course you think this is "Your job as a pro."
Quote: kewljSure there are a few patrons that are very content to lose their money trip after trip,
....quite a few, actually and apparently, - at least on the whole....
Quote: kewlj...in the name of entertainment, but the majority of players that step into a casino, go there with the intent of leaving with more money than they came with.
No. Only a fool or a pro thinks he's an odds-on favorite to reliably leave with more money than he came in with.
people go and throw dice and play cards for fun, with the chance of winning, not expectation or "intent," as you say.
Quote: kewljThey go to gamble, not necessarily to be entertained.
This quote is priceless.
I find gambling, and winning money, very entertaining. In fact, I, along with many others, seek it out.
Let me say this: At least I sure as hell hope my gambling is entertaining!!!
Quote: kewljThe industry (and Dan) needs to go back to accepting this concept, for it is what keeps them successful.
ah, that gambling shouldn't be entertaining or fun. That's a recipe for failure.
Quote: PaigowdanHowever, BJ came to be before its counting weakness was known (thanks to Edward O. Thorpe), and the only way to "change the paytable" on a counter is to back him off. If he's not counting, or counting badly, he may stay. If he's effective in his disallowed-on-the-game AP play, he gets backed off. And he is told the rules "You are too good for us, Sir! You play so Well! Goodnight!"
If tracking cards is so wrong then how come you guys pass out pencils and paper in the baccarat room?
