True test of your SRR

Quote: Ahigh

As the dealers will tell anybody who makes a habit of this, "hustlin' tips is for the dealers exclusively."

You can't be obvious without being uncouth.

But it would be WAY easier to AP this way than anything to do with statistics and chi-squared.

My biggest tip for a great roll was 50 bucks, I was stoked.

Quote: petroglyph

My biggest tip for a great roll was 50 bucks, I was stoked.

My best tip for a good roll was $300 I believe. But that was beat handily by the $500 for passing the dice.

Passing the dice wins!

When I got the $500 I had lost $1,000 (also shooting randomly) in the previous hour at a different casino. I was up $300 at the time at this casino, and the +$500 turned a -$1,000 into a -$200 which made the day suck a WHOLE lot less. But it wasn't one of those "what shall I buy now" moments after winning.

" As you know I feel the same way, DI's are the best thing to ever happen to a casino"

Yes, you can now ban any obnoxious jerk at the dice table on the pretext he is a DI. Ain;t it wonderful.

Quote: bloodoil

" As you know I feel the same way, DI's are the best thing to ever happen to a casino"

Yes, you can now ban any obnoxious jerk at the dice table on the pretext he is a DI. Ain;t it wonderful.

I think casinos should teach dice schools just like pictures on the wall of slot winners.

Craps players are perfect OCD degenerates, and taking some casino approved DI training would have them hooked worse than they are now.

I hate being hasseled about "hitting the back wall" just because I set dice. I have to believe casinos have sent spy's to di class and absolutely know the score better than some eyes glossed over would be king dice expert.

Somebody pay me enough, I will take a dice class and report back.

Alan, why not take the camera crew around to all the dice schools and do an expose of it either being the real deal or a hoax? It just boggles my mind that somehow they keep finding students.

I go play craps and set the dice and dealers ask me if I have seen Scoblete, what a PITA.

Hey, touts are very popular in baseball, football, horse racing, beat the slots, beat VP, etc, win the lottery. Even the stock markets learned from Touts. Touts quote 7 and 0 on Monday night NFL, 12 and 0 on 5 stay specials etc. Now brokers have have the same thins Gold options up 164& Low cap mutual funds on farm stocks. up 143%

Quote: petroglyph

I go play craps and set the dice and dealers ask me if I have seen Scoblete, what a PITA.

Here's an idea: next time that happens, tell the crew "Hell, the Captain and I taught Frank everything he knows. We used to paint that town red."

Jazz it up with anecdotes such as "Heck, we used to watch The Arm do bicep curls for hours in the hotel room," and "The Captain had to keep smacking members of his crew to keep them from humping his leg."

They'll be in awe.

You could finish with "Then one day we were in AC, munching on White Castle burgers, hammered, really in the bag, trying to figure out a way to recapture even a small percentage of the money we'd blown at the craps table, when he smiled, rubbed his hands together and said: 'Ive got a great idea! Any of you know how to teach?'"

Quote: MrV

Here's an idea: next time that happens, tell the crew "Hell, the Captain and I taught Frank everything he knows. We used to paint that town red."

Jazz it up with anecdotes such as "Heck, we used to watch The Arm do bicep curls for hours in the hotel room," and "The Captain had to keep smacking members of his crew to keep them from humping his leg."

They'll be in awe.

You could finish with "Then one day we were in AC, munching on White Castle burgers, hammered, really in the bag, trying to figure out a way to recapture even a small percentage of the money we'd blown at the craps table, when he smiled, rubbed his hands together and said: 'Ive got a great idea! Any of you know how to teach?'"

+1

Quote: MrV

Here's an idea: next time that happens, tell the crew "Hell, the Captain and I taught Frank everything he knows. We used to paint that town red."

Jazz it up with anecdotes such as "Heck, we used to watch The Arm do bicep curls for hours in the hotel room," and "The Captain had to keep smacking members of his crew to keep them from humping his leg."

They'll be in awe.

I like it, "The Captain and his crew of leg humpers" lol. They have even threatened to take the dice away, but seeing as how I am the only player, it reduces the threat a little. Even the dealers I play, should be able to figure out if I was the captain, I would play with larger than red chips.

I like low occupancy tables because I like to shoot. I enjoy a little fatty before, and to get lost in the game. I find that if I give these dealers an "in", they will never shut up until I leave. Nothing personal but I have heard the same lines over and over as have they.
If I didn't like throwing, I would play the bubble craps. "Ten on the end" they say, or "Ozzie and Harriet", new shoes. IDK, maybe something to do with being near deaf @ 4&5 kh?

Everybody likes what they like, I pay for the priviledge to play, the chatter I guess is just a bonus?

Quote:

You could finish with "Then one day we were in AC, munching on White Castle burgers, hammered, really in the bag, trying to figure out a way to recapture even a small percentage of the money we'd blown at the craps table, when he smiled, rubbed his hands together and said
'Ive got a great idea! Any of you know how to teach?'"

good post MrV

Petroglyph


I more than likely took more craps classes than any other player on this board... so what I may have taken more classes in my
field of work than any other person on this board. Hell I am almost 70 and I am still taking one type of class or another.

I surely understand what a class can and cant do, and I do this from experience, not from the freedom a computer key board
gives some people.

Frank writes about craps and he surely is not the best craps player in the world, though I will say he has or atleast used to have
a more consistent shot that you and I have. He writes about the captain and the Arm, Jim Lindner writes about fishing, hundreds of
others write about hunting and bowling and on and on and more than likely none of them are as good at what ever they write about
as many of the people that read their work.

Who in the hell cares, I don't.

All I know is I want to know as much as I can about stuff...craps is no different, but when it comes to craps, I think a player should be
able to play anywhere he or she wants without being hassled because of the way they set or throw the dice. To that end I do wish
those that write would be truthful in their discussion about dice control.... cant be done. You cant go to the table and throw any
number you want. I also wish casino management would wake up and understand they make their money from those that think
they can beat them. The biggest thing a casino has to worry about are the people that never walk into the door.

In Wisconsin it has gotten better. I cant remember the last time I got hassled. IT appears most have learned from the one casino that
stopped the setting of the dice and lost the majority of their table game business, not to mention the tips for all the dealers.

So I more than likely will continue to take one class or another, and buy one book or another and if there is discussion about what some one
may have done, well and good, even if there is no proof. I would rather do that than get behind this keyboard and make fun of those
that do write and teach. We have more than enough folks on this board that are good at that.

dicesetter

Quote: petroglyph

Everybody likes what they like, I pay for the priviledge to play, the chatter I guess is just a bonus?

good post MrV

You are good company at the table, bud. I just ran into SuperRick at Fry's a few days ago.

Quote: dicesitter

Frank writes about craps and he surely is not the best craps player in the world, though I will say he has or atleast used to have
a more consistent shot that you and I have. He writes about the captain and the Arm, Jim Lindner writes about fishing, hundreds of
others write about hunting and bowling and on and on and more than likely none of them are as good at what ever they write about
as many of the people that read their work.

The difference between hunting, fishing, bowling and throwing dice is you can quickly and objectively measure skill in the former three. Dice results are unfortunately so variable (compared to the other three) that there's no way to chalk one player's results to skill vs. luck compared to another, over any reasonable time. In other words, it only takes a few throws of a bowling ball to tell whether someone knows what they're doing and there's an objective scoring measurement. I bowled in a casual league with some friends for a few years and it was obvious that I was getting better. My first season average was 140-something; by the end of the 2nd season I was in the 160s and had rolled two games over 200 (including a 224!) I'm not saying I'm a great bowler, but I was a better bowler after playing for two years. The probability of my rolling a strike went up as measured by my actual results.

Playing craps is qualitatively different. After years of practice, the probability of you making a pass is still 49.3%, just like it is for me or for the first-time player.

Quote:

All I know is I want to know as much as I can about stuff...craps is no different, but when it comes to craps, I think a player should be
able to play anywhere he or she wants without being hassled because of the way they set or throw the dice.

That's somewhat like saying you should be able to run down the up escalator in a crowded mall. Or stand at the top while checking your text messages.

The reason most casinos don't like dice setting is it slows the game down. The solution to this problem is to take the dice away from players who fidget with the dice for 15 seconds before throwing them. If you can throw the dice within 3-5 seconds of getting them from the stick, set them all you want -- and most casino operators won't care or even notice. But if you're fumbling around, re-rolling the dice in front of you until they show your lucky number, twisting and turning and picking up and putting down each die individually, that's just wasting everyone's time and decreasing the casino's expected revenue/hour. If someone insists on setting the dice and then flinging them haphazardly down the table, clearly the dice setting is useless. Those are the players who slow down the game.

If you want to practice anything at all related to dice setting, practice picking up the dice, setting them to the orientation you want, and throwing them within 5 seconds. That's something you can measurably improve.

petroglyph



By the way I played at the table next to Riverside last week and the stick women
must have taken a bath because all was well.

To be honest the crew on that was very nice and polite to all shooters
and did not hassle anyone that was setting the dice.

I had 4 sessions there and it was a good time.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

petroglyph



By the way I played at the table next to Riverside last week and the stick women
must have taken a bath because all was well.

To be honest the crew on that was very nice and polite to all shooters
and did not hassle anyone that was setting the dice.

I had 4 sessions there and it was a good time.

dicesetter

I was just 3 doors down. They needed to do something about the crew IMO. It is their business and the last few times I was in that casino, there were only a few players even mid day. I just moved my play rather than try and fix hygiene or attitude issues, it's their call. I'm a pretty understanding guy and at times I'm sure I stink as well. I think that one Casa Nova dude may have moved on? It is pretty tacky when the stick is trying to pick up on all the chicks.

I know you were trying to beat me to that gal, I might have scored if you hadn't gotten in the way. J/K

Regardless that I am a red chip player, I am an obsessive tipper and that counts a lot at some tables. You being in the money business know that , money goes where it is treated best.

I am only half serious in any posts here on the internet, sometimes fast and loose with the keystrokes. I'm here for entertainment purposes, not to teach or change anybody's mind.

Up above where you responded, it almost seemed like you were defending Frank to me. I know you guys are friends, and you would have to search, to find an insult in what I posted.

I have a 70's sense of humor and V was/is funny, with laser like poignancy. Frank might even laugh, he seems pretty durable. That is the best medicine, laughter eh?

You say FS's shooting is more repetitious than you or I, or more accurate? The video's didn't prove that. I don't doubt that he might be fun to play with. I have always thought that it is the quiet ones that needed watching. Bunch of bluster and pizzaz doesn't impress me and I don't suck up well, so he would have to beat me pretty bad, in order to act like he could. You know we all want to believe. Like Jimmy Buffet say's "just trying to get by, being quiet and shy, in a world full of pushing and shovin"

I think somewhere around here it might be understood that there is somewhat of a standing challenge to prove DI. I will call it the "SOOPOO" challenge until another challenge name presents itself. Allen will bring a film crew, Sally will bring great math skills and dancing ability. I will be in charge of humor. Axel will figure out how to make money. It will be great. Everyone is waiting, waiting, and waiting.

I want to see someone do it, when Aaron is putting the needle to "em, and Sally is laying against. Anyone can do call shots when no one is watching. I have a little voice inside my head that congratulates me whenever I get a certain number, if it is beyond random expectation.

Until it is shown in slo mo, it will be doubted. I don't understand at least two things. #1 is, if it could be accomplished, why tell anyone? I forget the other thing.

I remember "Tom",, from when we played, and other than landing close to the wall I didn't get the sense of any superior dice skills?


I think if someone is going to come out and destroy the tables it will be someone a lot younger than you or I also?

I was somebody too...once. I could of been a contender, if it weren't for this bum leg and one bad eye.

If you were going to be in town and not PSO, I wish you would have told me. : )

Quote:

To be honest the crew on that was very nice and polite to all shooters
and did not hassle anyone that was setting the dice.

They should be. But you got that whole Santa look going for you, who would be mean to Mr. Claus?

Quote: Ahigh

You are good company at the table, bud. I just ran into SuperRick at Fry's a few days ago.

Cool, does Fry's have a table now?

I support putting craps tables in schools.

MathExtremist does anyone really take 15 seconds to set the dice?

I'll tell you what slows the game: shooters who order drinks while shooting, have their girlfriend kiss the dice, throw out bets just as they pick up the dice, and start their buddies chanting "hard 4, hard 4."

That's what slows the game.

Serious players who take DI seriously keep the game moving so they are not accused of slowing it.

Alan,
One night I had a stickman (that was full of himself) singing a country song (I'm not a country fan) as the dice were slid to me.
I simply held the dice in my hand until he stopped singing.

I've seen the same staff member multiple times since (at times he's even used as a boxman), however I've not seen him in any mood close to his singing-night.

slow the game down.....the late bets....the bane of all dealers.

ontariordealer



Well there are a lot of really poor dealers. Dealers that cant pay right, have no social skills and press for
tips and take advantage of players that don't know how to play the game.

The idea that they give a dice setter a hard time for taking a couple of seconds to set the dice is as laughable
as it is wrong. Just look around, people get the dice then take a drink, kiss their girl friend or boy friend,
make a dozen circles in the air, blow on the dice, take all five dice and drop them five times before the select
the two they want...... a dice setter slowing the game down my hinder.

Just last week I made a point and couple of hits on numbers and they shoved the dice to me, opps some guy
had to buy in with $40 so they took the dice away, slide them back...opps some other guy threw $20 out
there and back the dice went.... here they come again.....opps he does not really know how to play he is
asking questions..... now its been five minutes since I shot and I am in the middle of a roll.

Now did you see the box man stand up and say hey your slowing the game down.... not a word

I colored up and left......

I will come back when the table is "not so slow"

Good dealers make the game fun, bad dealers, well I guess they mostly talk about how setting the dice does
not help anyway, and besides...it slows the game down.

Dicesetter

Quote: AlanMendelson

MathExtremist does anyone really take 15 seconds to set the dice?

I'll tell you what slows the game: shooters who order drinks while shooting, have their girlfriend kiss the dice, throw out bets just as they pick up the dice, and start their buddies chanting "hard 4, hard 4."

That's what slows the game.

Serious players who take DI seriously keep the game moving so they are not accused of slowing it.

but they are the people making bad bets and losing all their money at the casino. DI's. Shouldn't be losing that much if they are betting correctly.

Quote: AxelWolf

but they are the people making bad bets and losing all their money at the casino. DI's. Shouldn't be losing that much if they are betting correctly.

I've been through the process repetitively of testing guys who believe themselves to be DI's yet are doing less DD than I was in order to determine the reality.

My samples indicate that if there are real DI's there are 99 who think they are DI's who aren't for each one of them.

Casinos should look at a combination of "are you winning" and "are you trying to DI" before worrying .. and lifetime wins at that, even.

The myth of dice control is real regardless of whether anyone can do it. Generally speaking it's a total myth (IE: that an average person has any hope at all to win beyond luck).

Quote: dicesitter

ontariordealer



Well there are a lot of really poor dealers. Dealers that cant pay right, have no social skills and press for
tips and take advantage of players that don't know how to play the game.

The idea that they give a dice setter a hard time for taking a couple of seconds to set the dice is as laughable
as it is wrong. Just look around, people get the dice then take a drink, kiss their girl friend or boy friend,
make a dozen circles in the air, blow on the dice, take all five dice and drop them five times before the select
the two they want...... a dice setter slowing the game down my hinder.

Just last week I made a point and couple of hits on numbers and they shoved the dice to me, opps some guy
had to buy in with $40 so they took the dice away, slide them back...opps some other guy threw $20 out
there and back the dice went.... here they come again.....opps he does not really know how to play he is
asking questions..... now its been five minutes since I shot and I am in the middle of a roll.

Now did you see the box man stand up and say hey your slowing the game down.... not a word

I colored up and left......

I will come back when the table is "not so slow"

Good dealers make the game fun, bad dealers, well I guess they mostly talk about how setting the dice does
not help anyway, and besides...it slows the game down.

Dicesetter

dicesetter, you, like me, have been around this game a long time and realize that the good dealers are now few and far between,

Quote: Ahigh

The myth of dice control is real regardless of whether anyone can do it. Generally speaking it's a total myth (IE: that an average person has any hope at all to win beyond luck).

The truth is that there are those that are selling BS classes to become a DI and they say that you can get your dice to stay on axis, which, by the way, I've proved many times over that you can't do it with all of the slow-motion videos that I've posted.

These guys that are selling their BS keep anybody that has a different opinion off their DI boards. They sell something that they get their students to keep coming back to take refreshers courses over and over again!

That's the on-axis DI schools business plan! They need the repeat customers to take their refresh courses. If their student didn't succeed with the first class they took, what makes them think that they will by taking one more class? If by chance they took the second class will happens when they need to take the third class?

If one of these schools can't tell you how to fix what is happening with your shot when you're on the table, what are they selling when you keep going back for all of those refresher courses?

What you read on the DI boards are nothing but fiction and some guy getting lucky every once in a while, then bragging to the world.

Ahigh went out of his way to prove that there were DI's or there weren't any and it was all just a bunch of BS that the schools were pushing so they could make money off of their students.
The guys that have these on-axis schools are now saying that it's just a hobby for them, teaching others to become a DI.

Well didn't anybody stop to think that the owner of the school already had a hobby when they said they were a DI? If they were so good at being a DI why are they teaching others to become one. Wouldn't you think that it would be a lot easier just to go to the casinos one or two times a week to make more than they would teaching others, without any overhead?

Ahigh said that anyone of those that owned a DI school could use his table and cameras to let them show what they could do with the dice and it never happened, I wonder why, don't you? Could it be that they know they can't do what they are claiming to do and the only way they are making money is by teaching others to try to become a so-called DI?

Quote: ontariodealer

dicesetter, you, like me, have been around this game a long time and realize that the good dealers are now few and far between,

That's one of the reasons I go to Las Vegas every year or so: the see THE BEST dealers dealing at craps at MGM and Bellagio.

Much more competent than at the tribal joints I usually play at.

Quote: MrV

That's one of the reasons I go to Las Vegas every year or so: the see THE BEST dealers dealing at craps at MGM and Bellagio.

Much more competent than at the tribal joints I usually play at.

There is at least one member of this forum who works for a casino that doesn't even have a craps dealer that takes issue with my complaining about bad dealers in casinos with low minimum bets.

In general, if the maximum bet on craps is lower than $5,000 you're not having as much fun as you could be having at a classier gambling establishment that can handle the volatility even with $5,000 being bet at a time.

Within the domain of craps tables that allow $5,000 pass line bets, I still feel like one of the best places to play is the SLS. I did have my first bad experience with a dealer there, but they were bemoaning the low-action of the SLS compared to the place where they used to deal and where they got better tips.

IE: they may not live up to the standards of quality dealers at the SLS. The only one of many I have interacted with at SLS, and the first one to insult me.

But do search out a classier crew of dealers, and the SLS are among the classiest, and they also offer a $5 game very much of the time in addition to booking $5,000 pass line bets whenever you are ready for some serious (life-changing) gambling!

Quote: MrV

That's one of the reasons I go to Las Vegas every year or so: the see THE BEST dealers dealing at craps at MGM and Bellagio.

Much more competent than at the tribal joints I usually play at.

come play in niagara falls....you will see quite a range.

Maybe this summmer.

We're heading east to NH for a couple weeks and always like to take a road trip.

Never been to Niagara Falls: you never know.

I suspect that you, seasoned, cynical casino dealer that you are, could more than hold your own on the strip.

Mrv


I surely don't agree with that. With some prompting from us, our local tribal casinos have done a good
job in trying to limit the buy in and disruptions during a roll. Now I am not saying they are perfect,
but they have come a long way.

And it is my opinion they treat us players much better than some crews do in vegas.


dicesetter

Yes, many tribal dealers are nice guys, and reasonably competent, but they are not as good as the early evening weekend craps crews at some strip casinos.

So polished, precise, great hand work, always get the math correct, even for high dollar / odd numbered bet amounts.

Not saying they're gods, but they're pretty high on the pantheon.

They do it Old School.

Quote: superrick

Ahigh went out of his way to prove that there were DI's or there weren't any

I missed this "proof." How exactly did Ahigh prove anything (with all respect to Ahigh).

SRR, STD, ADD or anything else will never tell you how good is your shot. The only information available to a shooter are the final combination you see at the end of the table, if you set parallel deuces or parallel midnight and you get an endless roll it doesn't not tell you anything, but if you set v6 and all you get is a hard six or a quarter off it means that you polished your skills to a perfection.

Quote: Ahigh

I just really want to go and watch, honestly.

They are not going to like that idea. Asians, who make up most whales, generally think white people are unlucky and prefer to have as few watching them as possible when they play.

Quote: Dicenor33

SRR, STD, ADD or anything else will never tell you how good is your shot. The only information available to a shooter are the final combination you see at the end of the table, if you set parallel deuces or parallel midnight and you get an endless roll it doesn't not tell you anything, but if you set v6 and all you get is a hard six or a quarter off it means that you polished your skills to a perfection.

By "endless roll" do you mean rolling a lot of numbers before a 7-out? If that's what you mean then I think that is just as much of a goal of DI as rolling hard sixes or numbers that are a quarter off.

I think dicesetter said it right when he pointed out the goal of DI is to be hitting the numbers you are betting on, or, to be betting on the numbers you are hitting.

Give me an "endless roll" and I'll be betting all of the box numbers (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10) and hoping that the endless roll is longer Than the Endless Summer (movie, running time 92 minutes).

If you want to debate theory of DI then consider that while there are certain sets that are supposed to target some numbers, there are other sets that are supposed to minimize the appearance of the 7, while other sets will maximize the appearance of the 7. Choose you set, and bet appropriately.

But to say using the Flying V and the dice must land on the Hard-Six or one face off isn't exactly a true test. If I used a Flying V and the dice landed on the hard 8 I would be just as happy -- and the hard 8 is not "a quarter off" per your definition.

AlanMendelson




I have to agree with that, other than watching him roll, it proved nothing. He wanted data
so I sent him some, and I am not very good and he even called me a liar. I think and I
admit I could be wrong, he was more concerned about how he compared to others
than about finding anything else out. Knowing me, I could have approached that
in the wrong way as well.

Complete dice control is a myth, cant be done, so in that respect casinos are all
worried about nothing, The dice setting community is no threat to a casino.

Having said that I have seen many players which have a much more consistent toss than
Ahigh or me and none of them were going on his show.

I understand the problems here, there are those that play and feel they get hassled because of the
crap some writers put out about winning money. At the same time I have spoken with pretty
good players that indicate they throw a traditional GTC shot which you can see a mile away and
they don't get hassled, so?????.

Where I come from we are in social events, by that I mean if one catches fish or a large fish
they tell others or kill an elk and deer, we take pictures, the back in forth of this is fun and it is
not bragging, it is what brings those of common interests together. When I started working
on my shot we all did the same, you had a 30 hand or he had a 40 hand...etc. We knew we could not
beat the casino in the long run, but we hoped we could even the odds a tad.

Sadly craps has turned into something else, if you can do good don't tell anyone, if you cant
don't even try... it takes the fun out of it.


This is the part of craps I just hate... period...

dicesetter

Quote: MrV

Maybe this summmer.

We're heading east to NH for a couple weeks and always like to take a road trip.

Never been to Niagara Falls: you never know.

I suspect that you, seasoned, cynical casino dealer that you are, could more than hold your own on the strip.

if you have never been before you will love new hamphire.

We have a summer home on Winnipesaukee, so I am familiar with The Granite State.

Never been to Niagara Falls though.

Just might (yeah, right!) get a kayak and attempt the Niagara gorge .

I think I saw that live back in the day on WWOS.

I sure miss the opening credits of that poor ski jumper epitomizing "the agony of defeat."