Are you real DI? Learn to clear a table!

Lots of people already take great pride in the sport of shooting against the don't pass bets, but if you are a great shooter clearing a table by making everyone lose is a great way to practice your shot. You always want the table to win money when you are around if you want to come back, so as sad as it may seem, the best way to sustain an advantage for your own bets is to also be a disadvantage for others' bets.

As a general rule, the fastest way to clear the table is to roll a seven as quickly after the comeout as possible.

If you have a shot for the comeout roll that you're using to get more sevens, and you have a full table of people betting on you, here's something to try (note your goal is to clear the table not to win or lose yet).

If you try to profit from a seven after the comeout roll by betting the come bet until you get a couple of numbers travelled, hitting the seven early can send people packing.

After you have a few come bets travelled, then take odds and try to win some money, or you can lay the number for more than the come bet (try to win $24 or $25 on the lay) and keep trying to profit from a seven without further come bets. The problem with the lay is more people will be on to your trying to roll sevens. This can help drive them away but it might not help if you want to avoid confrontation.

Once everyone is gone, max odds on a single pass line on an empty table and make sure you tip the dealers AFTER everyone leaves and talk about how nobody else was tipping.

If you want to help clear a table without shooting, don't pass or don't come bets exclusively. No odds necessary! If you're paying to clear the table, winning less while others lose a lot is more effective sometimes because they will see it as the table is cold and your win didn't matter. If you win as much as they lose, they can take it more personally and stick around. A real DI sees an empty table as an opportunity, not as something to fear.

Even DIPs can have fun with this. It's okay to pretend if you announce you're just having fun. ROLL WITH IT!

nice writing!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I want to win money for ME! I don't give a rats a$$ about anyone else.

I think you misunderstood. In this context, by table, I mean house/casino.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

By anyone else, I mean the casino also.

Well, in that case, you probably shouldn't play a negative EV game, then, buddy. Are you a lifetime winner as a gambler? What's your yearly take since you started?

This is really just something for people who are having a hard time finding an empty table and fancy themselves a DI. A true DI can make others lose as easily as making themselves win, and getting the dice in your hand for the maximum number of rolls is task #1 if you are committed to a particular casino with no empty table.

If you're a high roller, just go to a $25 table at a casino with a $5,000 max bet. Not hard to do most of the time, and you can usually find an empty table.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

As for "true DI's", they're is no such thing.

Complete and utter confounded hubris!

Let me ask you a question: do you think you know more about the possibility of their being "true DI's" than I do?

Because I'll say this, "I don't."

Quote: Ahigh

Complete and utter confounded hubris!

Let me ask you a question: do you think you know more about the possibility of their being "true DI's" than I do?

Because I'll say this, "I don't."

ahigh, will you give it up already?

So then Aaron, you are saying there ARE "true DI's" (hello, oxymoron) out there?

As in: "I have seen at least one in action, he/she conclusively proved to my satisfaction that he/she is in fact an AP?"

Alan thinks he has seen three in his lifetime.

What about you?

How many, and what convinced you they were "true DI's?"

I know you were frustrated in your attempts to prove it is in fact possible.

Quote: MrV

So then Aaron, you are saying there ARE "true DI's" (hello, oxymoron) out there?

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I know more about it than "Ibeatyouraces" does. His comment is a WEEEEEE bit insulting and inflammatory.

Nowhere am I identifying a single advantage play craps player that I know. Nowhere am I saying it's possible.

I'm just saying "**** please!" on the comment that "they don't exist." The one that's addressed to me. As if I'm going to read that and say, "oh thanks bud! You cleared that up!"

What planet?

Ibeatyouraces clearly knows more about all areas of casino gaming than you.

I have seen thousands of DI's. But none superior to me.

Quote: sodawater

Ibeatyouraces clearly knows more about all areas of casino gaming than you.

Yeah. If I had a mental log of all the HELPFUL things he had said to me to offset this comment, things might be different. I have him filed up there more on the unhelpful antagonistic personality types.

Regardless of what he might know about casino gaming, nothing he knows and has shared with me has had any benefit to my life.

Im confused. Is Ahigh giving a strategy about being a DI but believes DI is not possible?

By the way if a great baseball player only needs a 300 batting average what percentsge of good throws does a Di need?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Im confused. Is Ahigh giving a strategy about being a DI but believes DI is not possible?

By the way if a great baseball player only needs a 300 batting average what percentsge of good throws does a Di need?

As a dedicated and full time job, I think it's (AP craps) impractical, really, regardless of whether it is possible. And in either case, the chance that you're just lucky any time you think you're performing DI is too big of a possibility to know for certain what is happening.

Here's another interesting perspective on the matter. I could absolutely convince people that it's possible, and some people who were convinced might even go out and make their best efforts to become a full-time advantage play craps player. And they might go on to make six figures for two or even three years in a row with good discipline and thinking firmly that they are talking the talk and walking the walk. Then another year later their life could fall apart just due to bad luck and bad luck alone. And they might come to realize that they were just LUCKY the whole time. Or maybe they blame arthritis. Or the casino for letting them get at all their cash in the safety deposit box when they were drunk one night.

But on average, for each person doing that, there could be another person who loses as much that year attempting in vein and making the same efforts and having a different outcome.

Whether or not I think DI is possible makes absolutely no difference on the reality of whether it is possible because there is absolutely no proof that it is possible. There is no proof and there has been no proof since the first person was told "wow you are a great shooter" in a Las Vegas casino.

But if you WANT to believe for yourself that it's possible, you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD take the theory of my work and suggestions to heart. I mean why not?

Part of the point of this thread is that these suggestions are pretty much good for nobody. I've made this point to others, for example after complaining about heat, the obvious suggestion is to play at a nicer casino. If you complain about heat at Fiesta Rancho, uhm, maybe it's time to go to a classier joint to make money?

If you're playing for fun, the heat by over-betting a table to its table limits and having suits show up can be tons of fun. But it doesn't help you win money!

I imagine there are some craps players somewhere with more limited opportunity for dice time. But I can tell you one thing: at the $3 and $5 tables, just getting dice time is the first problem you are going to have. And every time I approach a $25 or higher table at the Wynn, I get an earful about my shot. And this is WITHOUT EVEN DOING ANYTHING BUT APPEARING TO BE A DI.

The real thing, if they are out there, yeah. Uhm, just yeah.

But let's not suggest things that are not true. I have no, nor will I ever have, proof that it's impossible. So the theory of operation is still out there regardless of whether it continues to be theory or working fact. The industry will adapt if it becomes proven anyway until the point that it's no longer effective.

I find it comical that people think that you might be able to just "believe" something into existence. Like it even matters what I believe without a proof.

It's equally comical that people believe that it's impossible than those people who believe that it's possible based on some irrelevant number of samples.

But just proving that it's possible still won't make it practical.

And as long as it's impractical, you won't find me quitting my day job to shoot dice!

Quote: RS

What parts didn't you understand? I thought it made perfect sense to me.

DI may not even be possible. Even if there is a slight chance its possible, It really does not matter because you cant make money doing it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Even if there is a slight chance its possible, It really does not matter because you cant make money doing it.

This is an interesting comment. If possible, why can't you make money doing it?

You don't need to have a monster roll to make money at craps. In fact, I know a few players who make money at craps by just hitting a couple of numbers and then taking their bets down and walking away. They are not small players either. One player, in particular, walks up to a table and places $1,000 on each of the six "numbers" for one roll of the dice. If he wins, he takes his payoff on that single number and leaves. I talked to him about it -- and only about once in about a dozen times does he get hit with a 7. He is never the shooter -- he just does this $6,000 across bet after the shooter has his come-out roll.

So why couldn't a DI do the same thing -- make a few bets, take a few payoffs -- and leave without tipping his hand? Why do you have to keep the dice for any kind of "monster roll"??

Quote: AlanMendelson

This is an interesting comment. If possible, why can't you make money doing it?

You don't need to have a monster roll to make money at craps.

You are exactly right Alan. You don't need monster rolls to win.

Even a DI with an SRR of 1:6 can still play at an advantage.

You can be a professional gambler with luck and luck alone if you bet big enough and don't make so many bets that the edge catches up with you. If you do plan on pursuing this (luck only professional gambler) craps is the ideal game.

Some professional gamblers get cocky and arrogant after they win, and it leads to poor decision making. They flaunt their wins and get to thinking that things will continue to go as well.

This is where psychology comes into play. And whether you have an edge or not, getting overconfident is a big big problem for any professional gambler.

But if you were only using luck and nothing else, it might actually HELP to know that at ANY MOMENT you could make a bad decision and get unlucky!

Some people with an edge attribute to skill what was truly only good fortune.

Knowing when you had nothing to do with something good that happened to you is one of the biggest advantages ANYONE can develop for themselves.

Baccarat might be a better choice under that scenario.

Quote: MrV

Baccarat might be a better choice under that scenario.

The edge that matters is the edge per each random event. In craps it is 0.4% and lower with odds.

If Baccarat had an edge per random event that was lower than 1.0% I might agree.

But it doesn't.

And I don't.

To compare Baccarat to craps, you would have to slow down your bets and only make bets on the place bet on the five and place bet on the nine or some other bet or combination of bets that carries an edge per roll of 1.0% or higher.

Alternately, at 1.33% or lower, the all-tall and all-small bets are similar to the edge in Baccarat per roll if you're committed to at least 6 bets on average per session.

Playing craps using luck and luck alone, one bet (one or MAYBE two rolls) per year might be ideal and/or one bet any moment when you might have to change your profession if you lose.

Caesar's Palace might work for this if your goal is to win $100,000 in one or two rolls per year. It could work for several years. I would only suggest two rolls if the first roll is a push!

From this thread, I have gathered the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- Ahigh's giving advice on what DI's can/should(?) do....even though he doesn't think DI is possible but also doesn't think it's possible. ??? Maybe I've misunderstood, but this is akin to giving advice on hunting unicorns.

- Alan's saying you can be a winning player by playing all 6 place bets for one throw of the dice. For this roll, there is a 1/12 chance the shooter 7's out. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say either the players play very infrequently or perhaps have some sort of next-roll information (/sarcasm). Or maybe they just aren't honest when they're reporting the 1/12 seven-out. Or maybe "about 1 in about 12" is more like "2 in 12".

Quote:

But let's not suggest things that are not true. I have no, nor will I ever have, proof that it's impossible. So the theory of operation is still out there regardless of whether it continues to be theory or working fact. The industry will adapt if it becomes proven anyway until the point that it's no longer effective.

You're suggesting DI is true, are you not?

Quote: Ahigh

The edge that matters is the edge per each random event. In craps it is 0.4% and lower with odds.

This is not meant to be critical of Ahigh for this comment, but I think it is a problem that all craps players and "experts" have. They always look at the edge, and then they talk about how adding the odds bet will lower the house edge.

Adding odds might lower the mathematical edge of the game, but it doesn't help you win.

If the point is a six, and you place 3X odds, it doesn't help you win. If you place 5X odds or 100X odds, it doesn't help you win.

This is why players who spend more time at craps tables end up losing. While the players who "hit and run" have a better chance of actually taking money home.

Let's say you get lucky 30% of the time (like the baseball player who bats 300) and you take the wins that come during that lucky 30% -- you have a better chance of winning than the player who remains at the table.

I've written about my "new way" of playing craps which is the passline plus the fire bet. Well, I've amended that so that my "newer way" of playing craps is the passline + fire bet and then after the first pass I don't replace the passline -- I just have the fire bet. That way I've covered my outlay for the fire bet, maybe even pocketed a small profit, and I can stay at the table and reap the big rewards if there is a fire bet payoff.

A few "must hit" bets are a lot more risky than saying you could overcome house odds with DI in the long run. The long run allows misses, a few bets is a lot of pressure.

Is that what is required in the large betting scenario. Or am I missing something.

Quote: RS

From this thread, I have gathered the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- Ahigh's giving advice on what DI's can/should(?) do....even though he doesn't think DI is possible but also doesn't think it's possible. ??? Maybe I've misunderstood, but this is akin to giving advice on hunting unicorns.

- Alan's saying you can be a winning player by playing all 6 place bets for one throw of the dice. For this roll, there is a 1/12 chance the shooter 7's out. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say either the players play very infrequently or perhaps have some sort of next-roll information (/sarcasm). Or maybe they just aren't honest when they're reporting the 1/12 seven-out. Or maybe "about 1 in about 12" is more like "2 in 12".



You're suggesting DI is true, are you not?

What a difference "2 in 12" makes versus "1 in 12" when you're betting $6,000!

Quote: RS

From this thread, I have gathered the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- Alan's saying you can be a winning player by playing all 6 place bets for one throw of the dice. For this roll, there is a 1/12 chance the shooter 7's out. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say either the players play very infrequently or perhaps have some sort of next-roll information (/sarcasm). Or maybe they just aren't honest when they're reporting the 1/12 seven-out. Or maybe "about 1 in about 12" is more like "2 in 12".

RS, what I wrote was this:

Quote: AlanMendelson

In fact, I know a few players who make money at craps by just hitting a couple of numbers and then taking their bets down and walking away. They are not small players either. One player, in particular, walks up to a table and places $1,000 on each of the six "numbers" for one roll of the dice. If he wins, he takes his payoff on that single number and leaves. I talked to him about it -- and only about once in about a dozen times does he get hit with a 7. He is never the shooter -- he just does this $6,000 across bet after the shooter has his come-out roll.

I think playing infrequently is one of the keys to winning at craps which is a negative expectation game. Because the longer you play, the more likely the odds will catch up to you.

In the long run you will lose. So, take your winners when they come and leave. Got a problem with that?

Now, if you happen to be able to influence the dice, then the fact that craps is a negative expectation game should not be a factor. If you can influence the dice then you can beat the game -- because no betting scheme, including how much you bet in odds, will make you win.

So, RS, are you a closet DI ?

Whatever happened with management being annoyed by worthless dice control threads?

Quote: DeMango

Whatever happened with management being annoyed by worthless dice control threads?

Uhmm they made a Dice Setting thread.. Did you not know you were in it?

Nope, sorry. Still the same old feces rehashed by the usual suspects. I think I will go out and roll 18 yo's!!!

No, I'm not a "DI".

From an AP perspective, I find it hard to call your buddies "winners" and claim that's a way to be a winner. Sure it works sometimes, but in the end, the player will be a loser, not a winner. The way you've described a winner.....well....you've described just about every gambler -- sometimes they get lucky and win...but I don't think anyone's calling them a winner (except themselves).

If DI worked and you could actually change the frequency distribution of numbers rolled enough to shift the edge, then yeah, you have an edge and can beat the game.

I'm sorry RS but my comment was about limiting the amount of play because craps is a negative expectation game. And I gave the example of the player (not a shooter, and not a DI) who made a bet of $6,000 across for one roll of the dice. DI was not an issue for him.

DeMango should also take note.

It is not negative to the greatest DI ever, namely ME ! ! !

Ostensibly I'm a "newby' to this forum. However; Ahigh's research as it related to DI/DC/DIP's, or whatever the term du jour may be, deserved more respect than it garnered. Although I should be surprised by his sudden change in stance on the subject, I'm not...this forum beat the man into submission.

Very few people can throw a 95 MPH fastball. But lot's of dice class teachers, with students, and book readers, and video watchers, think they can. Those that can do, those that can't litter the internet.

Quote: MaxSwelle

this forum beat the man into submission.

I agree with this. You write the book after the casinos have totally barred you. THEN you do the Edward Thorp thing.

Quote: DeMango

Very few people can throw a 95 MPH fastball. But lot's of dice class teachers, with students, and book readers, and video watchers, think they can. Those that can do, those that can't litter the internet.

Can anyone throw a 95-mph fastball, have it bounce off rubber pyramids, and still land in the strike zone?

Those that can't do, nor can be taught, naysay and disrupt the class.

Quote: DeMango

Very few people can throw a 95 MPH fastball. But lot's of dice class teachers, with students, and book readers, and video watchers, think they can. Those that can do, those that can't litter the internet.

I never claimed to be a dice influencer.

Exactly who on this forum claims to be a dice influencer? Or a dice controller? I think it's possible, and I have seen three shooters who I believe are true DIs. None of the three, to the best of my knowledge, participates here on this website.

And yes, I concede that there are many on other websites who claim the skill. I've even played craps with several of them and unfortunately I cannot support their claims.

I am almost ready to make my first $100 from my you tube advertisements after years of you tube videos being online.

About half of that is from the subject of bad dice and the custom die caliper that I spent a couple of grand on.

The other half is from recording results and sharing on you tube.

To put it all in perspective, I won $100 today just gambling with random shots (including my own), and a few days ago, some guy gave me $300 for shooting and winning during the time he was betting (this doesn't happen often).

But as far as compensation for my time invested to go into details on the possibility for advantage play, I've received a total of about $86.00 worth of credit on you tube (they give you nothing until you hit $100) in about 4 years time. I've invested somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000 into the pursuit and/or quest just in terms of equipment and hardware.

So that's something like ( $86 - $25,000 ) / $25,000 or a loss of about 99.656% of money invested even before considering lifetime craps losses or my hourly rate multiplied times the amount of time I've invested in programming and so on towards determining if there is any possible way to AP the game. And if you count the $101.41 I gave the Wizard, I haven't really gotten anything back at all from what I've put into this whole thing. On top of that, I think the Wizard is still mad at me for not showing at the unicycle thing.

Add on top of that all abuse on here and from craps dealers all over town, and you can easily see that I don't do this for the money or even for the positive feedback from other people. I have a genuine interest in the possibility of AP craps play that goes FAR beyond the possibility of profiting from it.

Every now and then, there's someone else who gets enough of it to say something positive to keep me going a bit. But by now, I just have more important things to do, really.

I don't blame anyone else for not wanting to dump perfectly good engineering time into a sinkhole of effort trying to AP the game of craps. But that's pretty much the problem: nobody with the technical knowledge to understand what I've done so far is really around asking for more stuff. It's just gotten to be too much work for anyone trying, and they are more interested in edge per roll of 1.0% and/or higher than what my work has led towards which is geared towards getting paid less often and targeting 0.4% and lower edges to make the task of overcoming the edge more plausible.

Every time I meet a craps player that tells me they are doing AP, and then they start talking about HOP bets or talk about trying to get paid on every roll, I do a little face-palm in my head and I get discouraged.

To actually do this has got to be boring if it can be done. Most are truly just in it for the excitement.

Ahigh -- You could have saved all of your money and time if you just internalized one thing:

"Small differences in initial conditions yield widely diverging outcomes for dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general"

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

But you don't like that this single, widely accepted mathematical principle invalidates your entire hobby, so you ignore it. You invest "$30,000" and countless hours into your "investigation" of dice setting.

You know what? Lots of people spend way more money and time on other hobbies. You're within your rights to have an expensive hobby.

You ever try to maintain a boat? It's way more expensive than dice setting.

But the difference between you and boat owners is that boat owners don't make 4000 posts saying "the world is actually flat, and my $30,000 boat is going to prove it when I sail to the edge the world."

Quote: sodawater

But the difference between you and boat owners is that boat owners don't make 4000 posts saying "the world is actually flat, and my $30,000 boat is going to prove it when I sail to the edge the world."

That sounds a little bit like an attack, given that I don't even have 4,000 posts yet. If it is an attack, I'm pretty certain it's not the first from you.

Speak the truth and I'll be more apt to listen.

Continue to border on insults, and you may run afoul of the forum rules.

Quote: Ahigh

That sounds a little bit like an attack, given that I don't even have 4,000 posts yet. If it is an attack, I'm pretty certain it's not the first from you.

Speak the truth and I'll be more apt to listen.

Continue to border on insults, and you may run afoul of the forum rules.

How is it attacking you when I write what boat owners do not say?

Quote: sodawater

How is it attacking you when I write what boat owners do not say?

I didn't say it WAS an attack. I said it sounded a little bit like an attack.

Speak the truth!

Are you sure you can handle the truth ? I am the greatest DI ever and am about to co-author a book with Jerry Patterson about my legendary skills.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sorry RS but my comment was about limiting the amount of play because craps is a negative expectation game. And I gave the example of the player (not a shooter, and not a DI) who made a bet of $6,000 across for one roll of the dice. DI was not an issue for him.

DeMango should also take note.

Wow! That's so amazing. Want me to tell you the story of the "winner" who turned $8 into $1500+ by hopping the hardways and semi-parlaying them (in only 3 rolls!!) ? Or the guy who turned $1K into $15K in about 10 minutes?

Limiting the amount of play because craps is a negative expectation game? Is this a winning strategy? Or are you just kinda saying random stuff that almost makes sense? Or are you just trolling everyone...because it's starting to get really hard to take some of this stuff seriously.

If you're going to talk about "winners", talk about the guy who plays with an edge -- exploiting dealer errors, takes action on other people's DC's [when they say 'no action on 6/8'], or can actually shoot the dice to gain an edge [another can of worms].

You can hit hard sets or you can have endless rolls, it means nothing. The only difference between DI's and others is the way the dice fly out of your hand and the way they hit the table. The dice should stay on axis and maintain on axis position when hitting the table surface. It should roll, not bounce, to the bottom wedge, they should roll onto wedge and back while still maintaining the axis. Anything else means one thing, it's random!