Opening of Downtown Grand
This story is brought to you by the Las Vegas Sun
http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/galleries/2013/oct/27/downtown-grand/#/8
Well I wasn’t there for the opening, as I learned a long time ago, that you never want to be at any casino for a grand opening!
Looking through the photos, I saw one that might be interesting to all the guys that shoot craps, take a look at those perfect correlated dice that Steve Wynn, just threw down the table, in photo # 6, if you believe in what one of our so-called experts says, then he must have made the hard eight!
I know it’s a cheap shot, but I couldn’t resist. Using it to point out the fact that just because the dice look good going down the table, it just doesn’t matter when they hit the felt, they can be bouncing all over the place. Sorry I don’t know the outcome of that dice shot, maybe our expert might be on to something.
It looks like they only have one table in there, if anybody gets by there please post how many they do have. Doesn't look like it was to crowded on opening day. I hope this casino makes it, but I don't know about the location or parking. I think that you are going to walk a block or two just to park. I could be wrong, so again if anybody goes by there please report back about the parking.
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Quote: WizardI saw a thing on the local news about the opening and the owner said they would have outdoor gambling, including a dice game where you throw the dice against the edge of the building. I got the impression he wasn't talking about craps. Between that and hopefully double-ball roulette at the Tropicana, November could be an interesting month for new games.
Well I missed that one, but it sounds like street craps to me, I don't think gaming would allow that, but you never know!
I would like to see how they would control that game! I might have to stop in there in the next few days to see what the casino is all about! Who knows they might have a good craps table there, but looking at the photos, it doesn't look like a place that I would want to play craps in, there is no fire bet on that table.
I just hope that they have good casino management in place and don't run off their players with bad rules on the craps tables, like 2 x's odds or strip odds, even though I don't think that odds matter, only because I don't play the pass-line if the dice are not in my hands, and its worth having the control over all my bets, not to play a pass-line bet!
I love the fact that you have the math of the game on this board, and well advise anybody that is going to play craps to read your board for the math of the game. So who will it be to check out this new casino first and give everybody a report about what they think about it?
I'm tied up for the next couple days, but will hit it as soon as I get a chance to.
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Anybody know if they will have any decent video poker. Alot of competition in downtown Vegas when it comes to video poker.
I would expect at a minimum some 9/6 job machines paying 99.54% with perfect strategy, but you never know.
good thing for me they have crappy scouts .Quote: tringlomaneVPFree says 8/5 Bonus and 9/6 DDB at $1 and $2 levels. Downtown is starting to slide a bit with regards to video poker.
You must only play crapsQuote: superrickOpening of Downtown Grand
This story is brought to you by the Las Vegas Sun
http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/galleries/2013/oct/27/downtown-grand/#/8
as I learned a long time ago, that you never want to be at any casino for a grand opening!
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Quote: AxelWolfgood thing for me they have crappy scouts .
Yeah, data there isn't that great at times. One guy totally screwed up Tunica Roadhouse a couple months ago. He either missed the best machines, or they were temporarily gone. They were in the exact same place when I went back a few weeks ago. Half the people there only report JoB, Bonus, or DDB. And DDB is a new thing for most of them because 98.98% used to be not worth reporting.
The only good public scout is a dead oneQuote: tringlomaneYeah, data there isn't that great at times. One guy totally screwed up Tunica Roadhouse a couple months ago. He either missed the best machines, or they were temporarily gone. They were in the exact same place when I went back a few weeks ago. Half the people there only report JoB, Bonus, or DDB. And DDB is a new thing for most of them because 98.98% used to be not worth reporting.
Quote: superrickLooking through the photos, I saw one that might be interesting to all the guys that shoot craps, take a look at those perfect correlated dice that Steve Wynn, just threw down the table, in photo # 6, if you believe in what one of our so-called experts says, then he must have made the hard eight!
I know it’s a cheap shot, but I couldn’t resist. Using it to point out the fact that just because the dice look good going down the table, it just doesn’t matter when they hit the felt, they can be bouncing all over the place. Sorry I don’t know the outcome of that dice shot, maybe our expert might be on to something.
Rick, it would be fantastic if you would shift gears from rationalizing why a high edge bet is okay into understanding how to theoretically grinding a profit from an advantage roll actually works (in theory).
It really sounds like you're missing a lot the more I read what you think about playing craps. More and more I realize you are just a low limit gambler who writes off his losses as flukes and considers his wins to be skill.
The last time I watched you shoot at the casino, the lack of consistent delivery told me that you have absolutely nothing behind your shot.
Zero, nada. Bupkis.
But stick with the theory of betting short term trends.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah, data there isn't that great at times. One guy totally screwed up Tunica Roadhouse a couple months ago. He either missed the best machines, or they were temporarily gone. They were in the exact same place when I went back a few weeks ago. Half the people there only report JoB, Bonus, or DDB. And DDB is a new thing for most of them because 98.98% used to be not worth reporting.
Funny you mention it. I cancelled a Tunica trip a few months ago and went to Biloxi. Checked out VPFree2 a couple weeks ago and see the games have returned.
Ouch! Why do i get the feeling Allen is going to say the exact same thing about you?Quote: AhighRick, it would be fantastic if you would shift gears from rationalizing why a high edge bet is okay into understanding how to theoretically grinding a profit from an advantage roll actually works (in theory).
It really sounds like you're missing a lot the more I read what you think about playing craps. More and more I realize you are just a low limit gambler who writes off his losses as flukes and considers his wins to be skill.
The last time I watched you shoot at the casino, the lack of consistent delivery told me that you have absolutely nothing behind your shot.
Zero, nada. Bupkis.
But stick with the theory of betting short term trends.
Quote: AxelWolfOuch! Why do i get the feeling Allen is going to say the exact same thing about you?
Who's Allen? I guess I don't know who that is, but I doubt Allen has seen me in real life shooting the dice.
Rick is a "great guy" and serves as a good source of comedy for lots of folks.
I just don't think he's an AP, nor have I ever.
He's interested in the subject, but his condemnation of "the math guys" is plenty enough for me to write him off as a wanna-be.
I welcome people to talk sh^H^Hsmack about my shot, or about my math, or anything else. But as far as this Allen guy, it would mean something to me if I knew who he were and why I should care what he thinks.
I stopped caring about every random Tom, Dick, and Harry says about what I'm doing because frankly most people don't have the intelligence to understand much of what I'm doing.
When I get comments that point out to me, for example, why I can't process my roll data once I get it to position and quaternion format because of the lack of exact precision using double precision floating point numbers, I might be interested to know exactly what they are talking about.
When Rick or Allen or anybody else says "they bounce all over the place and anybody can see that they are bouncing RANDOMLY" that's hardly technical nor worth giving two seconds of thought.
I can deliver a more consistent shot that the robot that I built to do the same thing. I can generally deliver a more consistent shot that the Dominator does in his you tube videos. I can deliver a more consistent shot than anybody I know. The computers and the videos demonstrate my ability to do this. And it has nothing at all to do with the outcome and it's clear to see.
Most people's shots suck. Period.
That's a misconception about vpFREE2 that they have scouts on staff. The duties for their "monitors" don't include scouting. They just make whatever updates users of the site report to them. So if users aren't interested in reporting stuff, it doesn't get updated.Quote: tringlomaneYeah, data there isn't that great at times. One guy totally screwed up Tunica Roadhouse a couple months ago. He either missed the best machines, or they were temporarily gone. They were in the exact same place when I went back a few weeks ago. Half the people there only report JoB, Bonus, or DDB. And DDB is a new thing for most of them because 98.98% used to be not worth reporting.
Quote: tes3355That's a misconception about vpFREE2 that they have scouts on staff. The duties for their "monitors" don't include scouting. They just make whatever updates users of the site report to them. So if users aren't interested in reporting stuff, it doesn't get updated.
I know it's volunteer, but some of the volunteers shouldn't bother reporting.
I miss the 10/6 DDB machine at the Plaza.Quote: AxelWolfThe only good public scout is a dead one
Quote: AhighRick, it would be fantastic if you would shift gears from rationalizing why a high edge bet is okay into understanding how to theoretically grinding a profit from an advantage roll actually works (in theory).
It really sounds like you're missing a lot the more I read what you think about playing craps. More and more I realize you are just a low limit gambler who writes off his losses as flukes and considers his wins to be skill.
The last time I watched you shoot at the casino, the lack of consistent delivery told me that you have absolutely nothing behind your shot.
Zero, nada. Bupkis.
But stick with the theory of betting short term trends.
I suppose it would be fantastic for Rick to see it your way, better yet if everyone would.
That's where you [not me this time] are indulging in fantasy.
In your opinion does the bet size represent the quality of the players game? Wouldn't % of buy in won or lost be a better metric?
You mentioned the last time you saw him shooting. When you say he had nothing, bupkis. What measurement are you using? If the measurement we are going to use is who had the prettiest shot, maybe you will end up number one? But if we use results won/ lost, how did you fare during that event?
What bets did you have on the table and what odds if you recall? Was that one of the times you were "AP ing" craps or one of the times you were just gambling?
The only time we met and I got to witness you both shoot you had a pretty shot with some 8's. IIRC your best roll was 8-10? Ricks was well into the 20's.
It wasn't theory that day. I couldn't tell if it was a short term trend or part of a larger sample.
Some folks shoot based on biorhythms. Some folks shoot numbers according to their family's birthday numbers.
I'm not talking about anything besides how consistently it appeared that Rick was delivering his throws. You know, the part you observe before they hit the felt.
When you're talking about 200 samples of someone's throws, the results are simply too small of a sample to mean anything at all.
Quote: superrickOpening of Downtown Grand. Well I wasn’t there for the opening, as I learned a long time ago, that you never want to be at any casino for a grand opening!
AP's are the first in the door at casino openings. Here's a few examples: Mystery Progressives first appeared in Nevada at the Mandalay Bay opening. $5 FPDW were found at the Monte Carlo opening. The Bellagio opened with a full compliment of advantage slots, IGT Visions, Williams machines, Oddyssey's, up to $5 denom. But two highly exploitable new games, Globe Shopping and Net Pay, also appeared. A new line of IGT Visions appeared at the Paris opening. AP's make casino openings. The early bird gets the worm.
Quote: mickeycrimmAP's are the first in the door at casino openings. Here's a few examples: Mystery Progressives first appeared in Nevada at the Mandalay Bay opening. $5 FPDW were found at the Monte Carlo opening. The Bellagio opened with a full compliment of advantage slots, IGT Visions, Williams machines, Oddyssey's, up to $5 denom. But two highly exploitable new games, Globe Shopping and Net Pay, also appeared. A new line of IGT Visions appeared at the Paris opening. AP's make casino openings. The early bird gets the worm.
That is just one difference in strategy between craps thinking [wanting the dice in your hand] and first exposure to the machines.
Welcome back MickeyCrimm
Quote: mickeycrimm$5 FPDW were found at the Monte Carlo opening.
Wow, and 17 years later I would have an hour-long argument with the floor about a 25-line 97.13% machine (6/5 Bonus w/STP) that didn't have the max bet button clearly labeled. I threatened to call gaming over it. After an hour of fighting, he gave me my approximate losses to shut up, $5. If I have free time next trip, I will re-check that machine, and will bitch if nothing has changed.
As for the newest casino, VPFree2 says their best game is 9/6 Bonus Deluxe w/STP, but I don't believe that because Bonus Deluxe doesn't exist for STP. Now if they meant Double STP (where Bonus Deluxe does exist)...then those are really good games for that game type!
Quote: petroglyphThat is just one difference in strategy between craps thinking [wanting the dice in your hand] and first exposure to the machines.
Welcome back MickeyCrimm
Thanks, it's good to be back. Now if I can just stay away from my laptop after downing shots at the bar....
Quote: mickeycrimm
Thanks, it's good to be back. Now if I can just stay away from my laptop after downing shots at the bar....
Is that what caused your suspension to start? I'm buzzed and gave a lot of crap on the guy from Boston tonight on my private forum because he still hasn't paid me off for the Blackhawks winning the Stanley Cup, and he was also bitching about the postgame commentary often talking about the marathon first... I am a St. Louis native and thought about going double or nothing vs. him, but I made the right call not to bet.
Quote: petroglyphMaybe you could get one of those breathalyzer machines people have to install in their cars to start them after a dui, that has a usb port?
Well that will just make him drink at home and be offensive on the 'net when drunk...haha Although that would be an improvement, I suppose. My brother is 2 DUIs up on me (2 to 0), and I hope he keeps that lead. I like to drink, but I am pretty anal about the driving part.
Quote: petroglyphThat is just one difference in strategy between craps thinking [wanting the dice in your hand] and first exposure to the machines.
Welcome back MickeyCrimm
MickeyCrimm, as Petroglyph said, someone who was a DI, would be no were around a grand opening, now I didn’t say a AP craps player for a very good reason,, there are too many other factors that are involved in a shooter being able to have decent rolls while they are playing craps, one of them is the other players on the tables that we play on.
One way of thinking about it would be, to look at what happens with some of the other sports, where you have a baseball pitcher, pitching that perfect game. Now I really do hate to use different sports to show what happens with craps players that are shooting, but here goes. When that pitcher is on the mound, there are no other players between him and the catcher. There is no one in his line of vision, making sudden movements that is going to startle the pitcher.
You may have never giving it much thought but the human body reacts to anything that is suddenly in their field of vision, there may only be a little jerk, but that maybe all it take to get a shooter, off their target.
Now one more thing to think about when you have the best golfer in the world making a put, there are no chips all over the putting green, and others are not throwing in more when he is putting!
Okay getting back to a grand opening, why would an AP Slot player want to be at a grand opening, if they were introducing new machines, wouldn’t you want to wait till a strategy was developed for perfect play on any new machine, before you started playing it?
I could see it if they knew beforehand that a casino had a great promotion going on with slot machines that someone knew was the best deal they were ever going to get playing them, like a big loss rebate!
It would be interesting to hear from everyone as to why they go to these grand openers, the last one I went to, had to do with company we had in town. My wife, and her girlfriend, wanted to go to the grand opening of South Point, we were stuck in traffic, for what seemed like an hour, some old lady ran into our car with hers, no damage done, we were only crawling along in traffic.
We couldn’t find parking, and when I did we had to walk from way out there in the parking lot. When we got inside you would have thought that they were given money away, you couldn’t get to a slot machine, all the table games were full, and moving around was almost impossible. That night wasn’t my idea of fun!
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Quote: superrickOkay getting back to a grand opening, why would an AP Slot player want to be at a grand opening, if they were introducing new machines, wouldn’t you want to wait till a strategy was developed for perfect play on any new machine, before you started playing it?
Because an AP player would be able to recognize any exploits and use them as an advantage before the casino catches on and removes the machines.
Thec casino itself was very nicely done and for those who take notice of such things, the chairs at the tables, slots, and bars were extremely comfortable with higher backs than most places. Everyone I spoke with was pleasant and one of the dealers made mention of Steve Wynn placing the first bet.
They have one pit with two craps tables, a several blackjack tables, three card poker, and some other games I'm sure I'm missing. Unless I missed it, I did not see a Pai Gow Poker table. They are one of the few casino's downtown that has bubble craps. I didn't play it, but I think it was 3x odds (I could be wrong on this).
As far as video poker, I couldn't find any JoB better than 8-5, but again, I wasn't doing an exhaustive search and didn't check out the high limit room.
One thing I really liked was the atmosphere, there weren't dancing girls and party pits. No fist bumping music with kids (aka young adults) carrying yards of margaritas though the place. Just older tunes playing in the background, overall a much classier feeling than most of the downtown establishments.
I think their concern will volume. Being a full block off Fremont may present a problem bring in foot traffic.
Rick, the situation favors the first player there who can analyze and exploit it himself. If you have to wait for someone else to analyze it for you, you're going to be too late to the party as far as making any money goes. The reason I have studied machine games so hard for the last 17 years is so I don't have to follow someone else's lead. I analyze every new machine game that hits the casino floor.
Micky are you sure they were $5 ? I was there and I had the pleasure *rolls eyes* of playing inbetween frankie neeland and jaialai. For thos who dont know this Jaialai character, just imagine Peeter from family guy, take out the funny and add rainman . Unfortunately it was only dollars. If I can remember rifgt the card was .5 or more. Perhaps I missed the fives, do u know who was on them I missed my cut.Quote: mickeycrimmAP's are the first in the door at casino openings. Here's a few examples: Mystery Progressives first appeared in Nevada at the Mandalay Bay opening. $5 FPDW were found at the Monte Carlo opening. The Bellagio opened with a full compliment of advantage slots, IGT Visions, Williams machines, Oddyssey's, up to $5 denom. But two highly exploitable new games, Globe Shopping and Net Pay, also appeared. A new line of IGT Visions appeared at the Paris opening. AP's make casino openings. The early bird gets the worm.
Quote: AxelWolfMicky are you sure they were $5 ? I was there and I had the pleasure *rolls eyes* of playing inbetween frankie neeland and jaialai. For thos who dont know this Jaialai character, just imagine Peeter from family guy, take out the funny and add rainman . Unfortunately it was only dollars. If I can remember rifgt the card was .5 or more. Perhaps I missed the fives, do u know who was on them I missed my cut.
The story was related to me by an AP who wasn't wrapped up too tight. I knew him in Laughlin. He couldn't hold on to money so was relegated to working for other pros most of the time. He told me that he found two $5 deuces at the Monte Carlo opening, then called a bankrolled pro and cut a deal for a healthy wage on the play. He said it lasted about two weeks.
As far the Downtown Grand, pretty much the most boring casino I can remember going into. I really don't have anything to say about it. I wasn't looking for opportunities.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI noticed they moved the FPDW so you have to hunt them down and were still at a snails pace. Played this game a bit at Palms and Red Rock. No four deuces but did come ahead a bit. In fact I came out ahead on all of my VP sessions while in Vegas even if it was by one bet, lol.
I don't know much about vp but some of them have a "speed" button to change the speed of the game, correct?
Quote: IbeatyouracesYes but sams town is set to super slow and you can't change it. They also have a sticker on them saying so.
Laughlin has some dealers like that, but no sticker.
They sped them up. You can top out at 1000 hph now if you are super-quick on the buttons. Very busy.Quote: IbeatyouracesYes but sams town is set to super slow and you can't change it. They also have a sticker on them saying so.
I just thought that it would take a little more time to figure out that there was an advantage playing a machine that you just saw for the first time! Thanks for the information, but I will still stay away from any slot machine, unless I notice something that just isn't right!
Quote: superrickI'm the first to admit I don't know anything about playing slot machine, I bought one so my wife could see how hard they are to beat, and told her that she need to only play Deuces Wild machine when she plays a slot machine, because that is what we have at home! I've also seen video poker teams in the casinos, and at one time new a husband and wife that was part of a team!
I just thought that it would take a little more time to figure out that there was an advantage playing a machine that you just saw for the first time! Thanks for the information, but I will still stay away from any slot machine, unless I notice something that just isn't right!
There are tons of crappy deuces wild games in Vegas. I hope she would look at the paytable first!
