Does the amount of your bet affect the house edge in any way?
For example, I generally play the Don't Pass line, and not wanting to lose all my money too quickly, I play very conservatively. So I make a $5 DP bet, and then for the 4 and 10 I lay $4 odds, for the 5 and 9 I lay $3, and usually for the 6 and 8 I don't lay anything. If I do, then it's $6.
I guess the basic question I'm asking is, is the house edge calculated based on any kind of assumption that you are betting in even numbers of units, for example, or something along those lines? I assume that the house edge *does* assume you are taking or laying odds, so does the house edge go up if I don't lay odds on the 6 and 8? Does the house edge go up if I don't lay at least as much as the original bet for the other numbers? Etc. Or is the house edge still around 1.40% even in the above scenario?
Thanks!
It is subject to the same edge percentage no matter the size of the bet.
The amount you lay in odds DOES effect the house edge.
As you increase the odds bet the edge goes down.
Decreasing the odds raises the edge but not above the original 1.4%
Check out the wizards craps page on wizardofodds.com for a full explanation.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
Quote: WongBoThe amount you bet on the line does not affect the edge.
It is subject to the same edge percentage no matter the size of the bet.
The amount you lay in odds DOES effect the house edge.
As you increase the odds bet the edge goes down.
Decreasing the odds raises the edge but not above the original 1.4%
Check out the wizards craps page on wizardofodds.com for a full explanation.
Thanks. I also read this:
but there's a bit too much math in it.
Would you be able to tell me how much odds are assumed when the house edge is calculated to be 1.40%? Is that assuming you lay at least the same as your original bet, so that a $5 bet would lay $6 (on all numbers) as opposed to my smaller amounts above? If so, then how would laying smaller amounts (like I do) raise the edge any, if it can't be raised over 1.40% anyway?
Is calculated for just the bet with no odds.
To simplify, here is the edge as you increase odds on the don't pass wager.
No odds 1.4.
1x 0.70%
2x. 0.46%
3x. 0.35%
3x-4x-5x. 0.28%
5x 0.23%
10x. 0.12%
I didn't mean it would raise your edge, it would just fail to reduce it as much.
Quote: WongBoThe house edge (1.36% per bet made on the don't pass, or 1.4% per bet resolved on the don't pass)
Is calculated for just the bet with no odds.
To simplify, here is the edge as you increase odds on the don't pass wager.
1x .70
2x. .46
3x. .35
3x-4x-5x. .28
5x .23
10x .12
Oh, I didn't realize the house edge was JUST for the line bet without any odds! So laying $6 odds cuts the house edge in half!? I didn't realize it was that drastic of a difference!
Is there an easy way to calculate the house edge for when you lay less than 1x? Or is it not worth figuring out?
I would recommend you make the table minimum bet on the line and back it with odds
as much as you are comfortable risking at one time.
And I would definitely start backing the 6 and 8 as they have the highest probability of the six points.
Quote: WongBoIt could be calculated exactly but you can estimate that it would be about 1% at half the wager.
I would recommend you make the table minimum bet on the line and back it with odds
as much as you are comfortable risking at one time.
And I would definitely start backing the 6 and 8 as they have the highest probability of the six points.
I think I will start laying $6 on all the points now. But as for the 6 and 8, the reason I usually don't is exactly *because* they have the highest probability. That's not good for a don't bettor. :)
The seven still rolls more frequently though. The odds are still in your favor and you get a better return than on the other points.
Your system seems fine. I think it would be good for you to get at least 1x odds out if you can afford to risk it.
Quote: WongBoOh right, sorry. I'm on the pass line. I forgot you were dark side.
The seven still rolls more frequently though. The odds are still in your favor and you get a better return than on the other points.
Your system seems fine. I think it would be good for you to get at least 1x odds out if you can afford to risk it.
Yeah, I hate when the point is 6 or 8, but I still try to remind myself that the odds are still in my favor. :)
I think the next time I go to the casino I will do a $5 bet with $6 odds. I think one reason I put so little on the odds is just the mental hangup of putting out more money than I would win on it, but again, I just need to keep repeating "The odds are in my favor" :)
Thanks a lot for your help!
You have three rolls to get paid and eight to lose instantly.
I also hate laying odds, that's why I just go along with the crowd and eat the extra .05%.
there is something psychologically unsatisfying about risking $6 to get $3 or $4 or $5.
Decreasing your lay based on the likelihood you'll lose decreases your variance at the expense of the raising the house edge per dollar bet. If you're tempted to not to take the max lay make sure you're at least betting the minimum on the DP so you can take the highest 0% edge odds bet you can handle (I assume you're doing this already). It makes no sense to make a $10 DP with a 2x lay when the option exists to make a $5 DP with a 5x lay.
Quote: WongBoThe really stressful time for me when I go dark, is the come out.
You have three rolls to get paid and eight to lose instantly.
I also hate laying odds, that's why I just go along with the crowd and eat the extra .05%.
there is something psychologically unsatisfying about risking $6 to get $3 or $4 or $5.
Speaking of laying odds, I was just reading the website you linked above and this passage stood out to me:
Quote:Although the player may bet more laying the odds, the variance is still the same. For example, if the point is a 4, and the table allows 3X odds, the variance is the same betting $30 with a 1/3 chance to win $60, or $60 with a 2/3 chance to win $30. So, don't bet the don't side because you may lay more on the odds. In my opinion, the only advantage to the don't side is the 0.05% lower house edge on the don't pass or don't come bet.
I noticed it mainly because I was thinking the exact opposite of what it says! I was thinking that once you survive the come out roll, the odds are in your favor and so laying odds makes the don't pass bet much better. But here it says that the only real advantage is the .05% and apparently the odds don't factor in all that much.
The main reason I play the don't pass is because I read this website a long time ago and I remember the house edge being slightly lower, so I figured I might as well make the best bet. But despite that, am I wrong to think that laying odds is a really good thing once the odds are in your favor?
Quote: PopCanIt's best to realize that your don't pass will ALWAYS be -1.4% per bet resolved.
Ok, I have to admit, after reading about bet resolved, bet made, and per roll, I still don't understand the difference. But that's okay as long as the house edge (in one of these forms) is comparable to blackjack, which I'm much more familiar with. Given the rules at the casino where I play, the house edge for BJ is .69%. Is this directly comparable to the 1.40% for craps, or are these two numbers completely different?
Quote:Decreasing your lay based on the likelihood you'll lose decreases your variance at the expense of the raising the house edge per dollar bet. If you're tempted to not to take the max lay make sure you're at least betting the minimum on the DP so you can take the highest 0% edge odds bet you can handle (I assume you're doing this already). It makes no sense to make a $10 DP with a 2x lay when the option exists to make a $5 DP with a 5x lay.
Well, the max odds where I play is 100x, so needless to say I don't play the maximum. As I said in my original post, I usually don't even match the original $5 bet -- I'll put $3 or $4 on the 5/9 and 4/10, respectively. I think I may change that to $6 though, assuming laying more odds is a good thing, which I'm wondering about now after that last post I just made...
Quote: JohnJSalOk, I have to admit, after reading about bet resolved, bet made, and per roll, I still don't understand the difference. But that's okay as long as the house edge (in one of these forms) is comparable to blackjack, which I'm much more familiar with. Given the rules at the casino where I play, the house edge for BJ is .69%. Is this directly comparable to the 1.40% for craps, or are these two numbers completely different?
Well, yes and no. The 1.4% DP edge is for resolved bets. The number of resolved bets vary greatly between BJ and craps. If you're betting the DP you can expect to have about 3.5 rolls per bet. If there are 80 rolls per hour when you play then you'll see 80/3.5= ~23 resolutions per hour. If you're betting an average of $10 a roll/decision that's 23 * 10 * 0.014 = $3.22 per hour average loss. A BJ game may have 60 hands/resolved bets per hour. If your BJ game is 0.69% with a $10 average bet your expected loss is 60 * 10 * 0.69 = $4.14. Basically your loss per hour for the same average bet is lower on craps due to the fact that there are going to be far fewer resolutions (23 vs 60) than in BJ. I hope that makes sense.
If you want to look at it as per roll vs per hand then the BJ is 0.69% per hand while the DP on craps is 0.40% per roll. I know it's a pain to wrap your head around but the numbers work out the same. $10 average bet * 80 rolls * 0.004 = ~$3.20 loss, same thing.
Quote: JohnJSalWell, the max odds where I play is 100x, so needless to say I don't play the maximum. As I said in my original post, I usually don't even match the original $5 bet -- I'll put $3 or $4 on the 5/9 and 4/10, respectively. I think I may change that to $6 though, assuming laying more odds is a good thing, which I'm wondering about now after that last post I just made...
Like I said, if you're not going to max your odds (100x, nice!) then make the smallest DP you possibly can while laying the largest amount you feel comfortable with in order to minimize the edge on the combined bet.
EDIT: As an aside, you say you bet the DP for the better edge. The 0.05% difference (0.02 per roll) is basically insignificant. If you're playing for 2 hours with $5 bets at 80 rolls per hour that's 2 * 80 * 5 * 0.0002 or an average savings of 16 CENTS per 2 hour session by playing the DP. By switching to the pass not only do you get to cheer along with the table but you'll probably feel more comfortable betting a higher multiplier of your bet on your odds which will MORE than make up for the edge difference when you factor in the edge of the combined bet.
The don't line is just no fun for me.
It would be interesting to be at a table full of don't bettors.
but its very satisfying when having taken that risk leads to getting the expected payout.Quote: WongBothere is something psychologically unsatisfying about risking $6 to get $3 or $4 or $5.
Quote: PopCanI hope that makes sense.
Yes, that was VERY helpful! But what about bet made? How is that figured (in layman's terms, like you did for the other two)?
Quote:By switching to the pass not only do you get to cheer along with the table but you'll probably feel more comfortable betting a higher multiplier of your bet on your odds which will MORE than make up for the edge difference when you factor in the edge of the combined bet.
But the house edge listing on(under the Strategy section) still shows a lower edge for the DP with odds bets. How can the edge still be lower for the DP if betting odds on the Pass will make up the difference? Based on those numbers, which again I might not be fully understanding, it seems like in all scenarios the DP with odds is the best bet.
Quote: JohnJSalHi everyone. I'm aware that the house edge for a Pass bet is roughly 1.41% and for a Don't Pass bet is around 1.40% (although I suppose it depends on exactly how you calculate the house edge). But whatever the house edge may be for any given bet, I'd like to know if the actual amount you bet affects the house edge at all.
The only time this can happen is when you make a wager amount that leads to a rounded amount for a winning pay. This is called "breakage". For example, the true odds bet on the 5 pays 3-2 and has an EV of 0. However, if you take $5 in odds on a point of 5, you'll get paid 3-2 on the first $4 (total of $6) and 1-1 on the last $1. That leads to an overall pay of 7-5 which has a 4% house edge (same as the place 5 bet, because that's exactly the same proposition).
As long as you avoid breakage, the edge doesn't change based on amount bet. Any amount bet on the passline always has a 1.41% edge, any amount bet on odds always has 0% edge, any amount bet on the hard 8 always has a 9.09% edge, etc.
Quote: PopCan
EDIT: As an aside, you say you bet the DP for the better edge. The 0.05% difference (0.02 per roll) is basically insignificant. If you're playing for 2 hours with $5 bets at 80 rolls per hour that's 2 * 80 * 5 * 0.0002 or an average savings of 16 CENTS per 2 hour session by playing the DP. By switching to the pass not only do you get to cheer along with the table but you'll probably feel more comfortable betting a higher multiplier of your bet on your odds which will MORE than make up for the edge difference when you factor in the edge of the combined bet.
Quote: JohnJSalYes, that was VERY helpful! But what about bet made? How is that figured (in layman's terms, like you did for the other two)?
Bet made, bet resolved, and roll all work out to the same expected loss. Per roll is just the easiest since you don't need to worry about estimating bet resolutions per bet made or number of new bets placed per session.
Quote: JohnJSalBut the house edge listing on https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/ (under the Strategy section) still shows a lower edge for the DP with odds bets. How can the edge still be lower for the DP if betting odds on the Pass will make up the difference? Based on those numbers, which again I might not be fully understanding, it seems like in all scenarios the DP with odds is the best bet.
Basically I just mean you're better off if you'd be more willing to take higher odds as a pass bettor than you would laying odds as a DP player. If your combined bet, on average, is higher as a pass player then you'll have a smaller loss per $1 wagered than the DP player. The edge doesn't actually change. A DP bettor taking full odds is still slightly better off than a pass bettor taking full odds.
Imagine two players, a pass player and a don't pass player playing at a 5x odds game. Each bet $10 on the line. This gives the pass player an expected loss of roughly $0.16/hour more than the don't pass player. Both taking the odds as a pass player and laying the odds as a DP player have a 0% edge. However, the don't pass player doesn't like laying full odds since he risks more for the smaller payout. So say he only lays $10 odds. The pass player on the other hand decides to take the full $50 in odds. The pass player's combined edge for his $60 bet ($10 pass/$50 odds) is only 0.00097. The DP player's combined edge for his $20 bet is 0.00202.
You don't have to bet odds if you don't want to. I think it was mentioned above, but a $5 don't pass vs a $don't pass with max odds will lose the same amount of money on each resolved bet. The reason the edge changes is because you are betting larger amounts when you bet the odds. You aren't actually losing any more money or winning anymore money. You are simply affecting the variance.
Quote: PopCanBasically I just mean you're better off if you'd be more willing to take higher odds as a pass bettor than you would laying odds as a DP player. If your combined bet, on average, is higher as a pass player then you'll have a smaller loss per $1 wagered than the DP player. The edge doesn't actually change. A DP bettor taking full odds is still slightly better off than a pass bettor taking full odds.
Imagine two players, a pass player and a don't pass player playing at a 5x odds game. Each bet $10 on the line. This gives the pass player an expected loss of roughly $0.16/hour more than the don't pass player. Both taking the odds as a pass player and laying the odds as a DP player have a 0% edge. However, the don't pass player doesn't like laying full odds since he risks more for the smaller payout. So say he only lays $10 odds. The pass player on the other hand decides to take the full $50 in odds. The pass player's combined edge for his $60 bet ($10 pass/$50 odds) is only 0.00097. The DP player's combined edge for his $20 bet is 0.00202.
Oh I see what you mean. So if I were to switch to the Pass line yet still only take 1x odds (which is what I would do -- $5 bet and $5/$6 odds), then the DP is better? But if I put *more* odds for the Pass than I do for the DP, then the Pass is better?
If you prefer to gain the extra .05% you will lose the effect of camaraderie that the rest of the table enjoys.
The quality of the experience is enhanced by playing along with the rest of the majority.
To me it is worth the five cents per $100 wagered.
Quote: JohnJSalOh I see what you mean. So if I were to switch to the Pass line yet still only take 1x odds (which is what I would do -- $5 bet and $5/$6 odds), then the DP is better? But if I put *more* odds for the Pass than I do for the DP, then the Pass is better?
Yes, you'll lose less per combined $1 wagered betting the pass higher odds than betting the DP with lower odds. Note that is per dollar wagered. For example a pass line bettor betting $10 with $50 odds (5x) will play at a 0.097% edge on his $60 bet. A DP bettor betting $10 with a $40 lay on a 4&10 (2x) will play at a 0.135 % edge on his $50 bet.
The bottom line you should try to play with the lowest loss per hour possible, but if doing so lessens the fun you have then feel free to play worse in order to have more fun. So long as you're comfortable with the expected loss per hour and variance of your play, don't worry about the small stuff.
Does switching back and forth every few rolls affect the house edge at all? I mean, I understand the basic math behind the calculations won't change, but, for example, if you play half the rolls per hour as Pass, and the other half DP, is the outcome still the same, or is there something worse about constantly switching?
Thanks.
Quote: JohnJSal
Does switching back and forth every few rolls affect the house edge at all? I mean, I understand the basic math behind the calculations won't change, but, for example, if you play half the rolls per hour as Pass, and the other half DP, is the outcome still the same, or is there something worse about constantly switching?
Thanks.
It does not affect the edge one bit.
There is no history from one resolved bet to another. Once you win or lose that Pass/Don't bet, the game basically resets.
Quote: ewjones080Yes I was going to point this out. I like to word it like this: For any Pass/Come or Don't Pass/Don't Come your loss will always be around 7 cents per $5 flat (slightly more than 7 on Pass, a little less than that for DP). So if you want to bet $11 dollars AGAINST any number, you're much better doing $5 flat and backing with $6 odds rather and $11 flat. The house edge doesn't magically decrease on the flat bet because you take some odds, it just decreases on the TOTAL money. You should always think of your loss as being 7 cents per $5 flat.
Thanks, I think that's probably a good way to think about it.
