January 22nd, 2012 at 5:17:13 PM
permalink

Hello everyone, I decided to do a dice control experiment beyond what I have seen done so far on the forums. I have a set up in my basement, not a table but as close as I can get with a minimal investment . I have a landing station with the rubber pyramid back wall and casino grade felt. I made the surface to resemble the tables I like to play on. I would call it medium, not rock hard but not super bouncy. It is wide and deep enough for the dice to come to rest without hitting the side walls. It is 28" off the floor as are most casino table surfaces. I have a similar throwing station. I positioned the throwing station 7 1/2' from the backwall which would put me next to the stickman on a standard 12' table which is where I like to shoot from. I used three sets of dice. The right was always blue and the left always green. this way we could track what each die did. I used the hardway set with the 5's on top and the 3's facing me on every throw. I threw in sessions with a minimum of 30 throws and a maximum of 90 per session over the course of two to three weeks. I made sure at least one die hit the backwall every throw but I tried to make sure they both did. I did not count them if one flew off the table. I made a total of 1024 rolls which I recorded and anyalyzed on bone tracker and Dice tool which was created by Stanford Wong and the Mad Professor.

I know 1024 rolls is a very small sample compared to the actual math of the game but I found the results interesting and the sample large enough so I thought I would share. Let me also add that I am not saying either way that dice control is possible or not, I have practiced for almost 2 years and I still do not think I can do it.

Here are my results, after all 1024 rolls my sevens to rolls ratio was 6.82, at one point after 725 rolls it was 7.22. This means I should have an edge on certain bets on the table. The CHi test showed after 725 rolls I was definitely influencing the dice but after all 1024 rolls the chi test said there was only possible influence. The dice tool also tracks what the results would have been had I used a different set. The throwing set came out with the highest SRR. Tied with it though was the paralell 6's with 6's on top and the 3's facing me. Box number to rolls ratio was 4.8 with random being 4. My dice stayed on axis 46.2 percent of the time with random being 44.44. So all this says I should have an edge on the pass or come with odds and the 6 and 8. Here is where it gets interesting. I then manually went through the sheets and tracked the bets as if I was actually making them on these rolls. I first did a $10 pass line with double odds. With this betting scenario I would have lost $530 on these 1024 rolls even though I should have an edge. I then added a come bet to the same scenario the come bet only lost $114. I then went through and looked at what would happen if I was the shooter but only bet the pass with no odds (so I could shoot) and placed the 6 and 8 for $12 each. That scenario would have produced a profit of $1292. At first I found this odd but it makes sense because the 6 and 8 are the numbers that should appear the most next to the 7. It also means that just avoiding the 7 is not enough you must be able to hit certain numbers more than called for, for dice control to work and obviously I was hitting other box numbers but not able to roll my point number. So if we do have a slight edge do we forget the pass with odds and just get some money on the inside? I also ran a few other scenarios. I took the intial $10 pass line bet with double odds and implemented the 5 count. This produced a profit of $350 instead of a loss of $530. I also ran $44 inside which produced a profit of $1170. Buying the 4 and 10 produced a profit of $550 but buying just the ten added $1000 to the cause. I also loooked at a couple superstitions. The first is the 7 follows the hard 10. I threw 31 hard 10's only 6 were followed by a 7. I also looked at how many point, sevens there were. I would have made an extra $160 by not laying odds until a box nuber was thrown after the point was established. I did not figure this scenario with place bets only the pass with odds. I believe that had I not had my place bets working after a point was established until a box number was thrown I would have been even further ahead. I found it interesting that in the end the numbers showed I had an edge in the game but lost money on the lowest house edge bet available. I am heading to Vegas in a week I am going to try the pass no odds with the 6 and 8 when I am shooting and see if the theoretical profit I can muster up in my basement can show up in real action if I can get the dice to behave. I will keep you posted with the return results. I know that this is a very small unscientific test but I stiil thought the results interesting enough to share with you. I know I do not have the excitement, distractions or atmosphere in my basement that we have in the casino but I am going to give it my best effort.

I know 1024 rolls is a very small sample compared to the actual math of the game but I found the results interesting and the sample large enough so I thought I would share. Let me also add that I am not saying either way that dice control is possible or not, I have practiced for almost 2 years and I still do not think I can do it.

Here are my results, after all 1024 rolls my sevens to rolls ratio was 6.82, at one point after 725 rolls it was 7.22. This means I should have an edge on certain bets on the table. The CHi test showed after 725 rolls I was definitely influencing the dice but after all 1024 rolls the chi test said there was only possible influence. The dice tool also tracks what the results would have been had I used a different set. The throwing set came out with the highest SRR. Tied with it though was the paralell 6's with 6's on top and the 3's facing me. Box number to rolls ratio was 4.8 with random being 4. My dice stayed on axis 46.2 percent of the time with random being 44.44. So all this says I should have an edge on the pass or come with odds and the 6 and 8. Here is where it gets interesting. I then manually went through the sheets and tracked the bets as if I was actually making them on these rolls. I first did a $10 pass line with double odds. With this betting scenario I would have lost $530 on these 1024 rolls even though I should have an edge. I then added a come bet to the same scenario the come bet only lost $114. I then went through and looked at what would happen if I was the shooter but only bet the pass with no odds (so I could shoot) and placed the 6 and 8 for $12 each. That scenario would have produced a profit of $1292. At first I found this odd but it makes sense because the 6 and 8 are the numbers that should appear the most next to the 7. It also means that just avoiding the 7 is not enough you must be able to hit certain numbers more than called for, for dice control to work and obviously I was hitting other box numbers but not able to roll my point number. So if we do have a slight edge do we forget the pass with odds and just get some money on the inside? I also ran a few other scenarios. I took the intial $10 pass line bet with double odds and implemented the 5 count. This produced a profit of $350 instead of a loss of $530. I also ran $44 inside which produced a profit of $1170. Buying the 4 and 10 produced a profit of $550 but buying just the ten added $1000 to the cause. I also loooked at a couple superstitions. The first is the 7 follows the hard 10. I threw 31 hard 10's only 6 were followed by a 7. I also looked at how many point, sevens there were. I would have made an extra $160 by not laying odds until a box nuber was thrown after the point was established. I did not figure this scenario with place bets only the pass with odds. I believe that had I not had my place bets working after a point was established until a box number was thrown I would have been even further ahead. I found it interesting that in the end the numbers showed I had an edge in the game but lost money on the lowest house edge bet available. I am heading to Vegas in a week I am going to try the pass no odds with the 6 and 8 when I am shooting and see if the theoretical profit I can muster up in my basement can show up in real action if I can get the dice to behave. I will keep you posted with the return results. I know that this is a very small unscientific test but I stiil thought the results interesting enough to share with you. I know I do not have the excitement, distractions or atmosphere in my basement that we have in the casino but I am going to give it my best effort.

January 22nd, 2012 at 5:20:30 PM
permalink

tl,dr.

NO KILL I

January 22nd, 2012 at 5:38:17 PM
permalink

Paragraphs...they are your friend.

January 22nd, 2012 at 5:55:13 PM
permalink

Yes, sorry I did ramble a bitQuote:TriplellParagraphs...they are your friend.

January 22nd, 2012 at 5:57:22 PM
permalink

Maybe I am missing something here... but if you can acheive a 7 / non seven ration of 1 to 6.82, just roll 'regular' on the come out roll and you will have a HUGE advantage once you start 'controlling' once a point has been established. As stated many times, I am willing to bet you cannot acheive that level of dice control in a real casino which requires you to hit the back wall with both dice. Good luck in Vegas, and let us know how you do.

January 22nd, 2012 at 6:15:23 PM
permalink

Thanks for that, Ralph. It is consistent with my anecdotal experiences. Keep us posted on your casino work to come!

January 22nd, 2012 at 6:17:50 PM
permalink

MrRalph

I’m toying with a similar method as to your Pass Line w/ no odds , and placing the 6 and/or 8.

However, I’m making a come bet on the second roll, nothing else .( I hate those point Sevens.)

If the come bet goes to a 6 or 8, I will take odds, and place the other 6 or 8.

If the bet goes to another number besides the 6 or 8, I take no odds on my come bet, but now place the 6 and 8 .

Good Luck on your experiment

I’m toying with a similar method as to your Pass Line w/ no odds , and placing the 6 and/or 8.

However, I’m making a come bet on the second roll, nothing else .( I hate those point Sevens.)

If the come bet goes to a 6 or 8, I will take odds, and place the other 6 or 8.

If the bet goes to another number besides the 6 or 8, I take no odds on my come bet, but now place the 6 and 8 .

Good Luck on your experiment

January 22nd, 2012 at 6:38:32 PM
permalink

I forgot that in my post. I figured taking odds if the point was 6 or 8 and not placing that number

January 22nd, 2012 at 11:55:45 PM
permalink

Not surprised at all by the results. I have had similar short term results with my SRR as well. Keep up the practice and have fun with it.

January 23rd, 2012 at 5:36:12 AM
permalink

No my point was that having an SSR of 1 to 6.82 was not enough to show a profit as I could not repeat the point number. Even though on paper I had an edge in the physical I could not roll that point number before the 7 appeared. So just having a SSR above random in this small sampling was not enough to over come the lowest house edge bet on the table which I found interesting. Thanks for the good wishes and I will let you all know how it played out.Quote:SOOPOOMaybe I am missing something here... but if you can acheive a 7 / non seven ration of 1 to 6.82, just roll 'regular' on the come out roll and you will have a HUGE advantage once you start 'controlling' once a point has been established. As stated many times, I am willing to bet you cannot acheive that level of dice control in a real casino which requires you to hit the back wall with both dice. Good luck in Vegas, and let us know how you do.