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Joined: Jan 15, 2010
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January 17th, 2012 at 1:09:34 AM permalink
If you have the bankroll to ride the variance, then by all means craps is an amazing game to play for hours on end with many ups and downs. For the rest of us who don't know what it means to bring four figures into a casino (I know some of you are out there), play a few rolls hardcore and see if you can win a mini-jackpot... and know when to frickin' walk away.

Or just play the darkside minimum... a hundred bucks can last hours if you just keep $5 on the wrong side.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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January 17th, 2012 at 2:18:44 AM permalink
Since craps is a negative expectation game you should leave a loser -- period. There are only two ways to beat the game of craps:

1. cheat
2. influence the dice

If you can't cheat, and if you can't influence the dice, then be prepared to lose. If you won, you got lucky.
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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January 17th, 2012 at 10:32:40 AM permalink
Craps is a frustrating game. You wil lose more sessions than you win playing the right side. It is tempting to chase your losses. Don't do it.

I'm taking a break for a while. I chased too much last trip, and was playing $5 and 3x4x5x odds on every roll. Got all the box numbers loaded up and the shooter sevened out. Six points, no winners, $150 wipe-out. That's never happened to me before.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
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January 17th, 2012 at 2:06:39 PM permalink
I was going to start a new thread about my craps "philosophy" but figured I might as well just add my thoughts here.

I completely agree with Alan when he says "Since craps is a negative expectation game you should leave a loser -- period." This is the bleak truth, and all you can do is hope for your overall wins and losses to balance out eventually, and have fun and enjoy some free drinks/other comps while you're at it.

I'm a staunch dark side player, and while playing this way technically gets you a lower overall house edge, I don't necessarily play dark side just because of the math. There's also a psychological aspect to when you win/when you lose. When you're betting the right way, either with pass/odds/come/odds or placing/buying the other numbers, you win money in small chunks and when that seven inevitably comes up - BAM - all the money you had on the table is now gone.

When you play the dark side, it's the exact opposite. I have one bet on the Don't Pass and always back it up laying maximum odds (at a 3-4-5x table this is conveniently always 6x time your bet, just like the payoff is for right side pass odds). Then, depending on my bankroll for the session and how much I want to risk, I'll add 1, 2 or sometimes 3 Don't Come bets, also backed up laying maximum odds. When you have this setup, you lose money in small chunks. The 6 hits, that bet is gone, the 9 hits, that bet is gone, etc. But when that seven comes up - and remember seven is always the most likely number to roll - BAM - you just won all of your bets! I know the house still has the edge, but for me the psychology of it makes it more fun. I'm almost always rooting for that seven to show up. And since it's the most likely number, I feel more logical. Call it cognitive dissonance if you want.

Anyway, just my two cents. Obviously you have to be able to handle getting the stinkeye from the rest of the table if you're winning. But more often than not both sides of the table are losing and winning back and forth, so many times I've actually made friends while I was playing don't and they were playing pass - just a friendly rivalry sort of, when we both know we're playing a negative expectation game. I never celebrate my wins emphatically unless I'm the only one at the table or everyone is betting don't - just seems like good manners given the history and customs of the game.

I've only had one person get seriously upset at me while I was shooting don't pass. I was betting $5 DP/DC bets backed up with $30 lay odds, and he was probably averaging 10x or 20x more money on the layout than me betting right side (talking black chips on the pass line, placing the 6 and 8 for SIX HUNDRED EACH). It was a cold table and he was losing money hand over fist while I was winning modestly. He finally lost everything he had (I estimated he had $5-6K in his rack when I walked up) and I had the feeling he was already down when I walked up. This is the only time I felt really bad. I made a couple hundred bucks, maybe, and this guy was just absolutely wrecked. I have no idea if he had the means to support such gambling losses, but he was a young guy (mid-late-twenties) so probably not. In retrospect I wish I had just walked away from that table. At one point he even put a black chip on the pass line in front of me while I was shooting, hoping to change my mind about what I was "trying" to roll (lollers). I seven'd out and won my bets and lost his $100 for me.

I absolutely refuse to switch to the right side no matter what - it's just a personal rule I have set for myself. I don't believe in luck/streaks/hot shooters/etc., and I refuse to be bullied into it. If I have a bad feeling that a table is heating up and is going to stay hot, I just walk away instead of switching sides.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Feel free to call me an asshole, all of you normal right-side bettors :). Oh and I sometimes wear a Darth Vader shirt when I play craps.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Joined: May 21, 2010
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January 17th, 2012 at 3:18:28 PM permalink
AcesAndEights, one of the best posts I've seen about craps (or any table game) in a long time. You've got the right idea and the right attitude. You may have even swayed me to this line of thinking.
Happiness is underrated
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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January 18th, 2012 at 2:44:18 PM permalink
Aces&8s, that was a great post. There is nothing more sucky than losing all those bets you've got set up with numbers galore and full odds thinking you can't lose and then boom comes the seven! Maybe the darkside is the way to go. I'm going to have to pray on that one.
Joined: Jan 9, 2012
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January 18th, 2012 at 4:15:13 PM permalink
As long as you guys remember, with the dark side, you have an 8 to 3 disadvantage on the come out roll.

$20 Don't Pass. You have 8 ways to lose (6 ways to make 7, 2 ways to make 11) and you have only 3 ways to win (1 way to make 2, 2 ways to make 3, and the 12 is a push). Once you get past that. The odds tip in your favor.

Just understand that playing the dark side is the opposite of the light side. Odds against you first, than with you.
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
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January 20th, 2012 at 12:37:25 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

I've only had one person get seriously upset at me while I was shooting don't pass.

Great story!

I enjoy playing the don't side, for the same reasons you listed. One 7 and you win multiple rather than losing multiple bets. (My new system, however, is not always on the don't, but it does allow me to consistently leave the table with more money that I started, so I go with it.)

Along with your story, I can say that I've never had anybody be openly antagonistic to me while playing the don't. I have shooters on the other side of the table "aim" for my chips, and I've heard the occasional comment muttered under someone's breath.

On my most recent trip, I was playing the don't side, and had such an instance. First, I was standing right next to the dealer. OK. Maybe there was a gap of about 5 inches or so. Anyway, this guy comes and decides he's going to take that end spot (not sure if there's a name for it.) I felt like, I was already basically standing there, and would have been polite for him to ask which side of me he should stand on. But that didn't happen. I refused to move over for him as well, again, because I feel like he just co-opted the spot without even a polite ask. And it's not as though the table was crowded, there was plenty of places for him to fit in.

Anyway, he buys in his chips, and then notices that I'm playing the don't. He immediately mutters about the "negativity" on the table, and refused to bet. I'm annoyed with the guy by now. Not only does he force his way into a spot where he doesn't fit, but he doesn't even start betting right away. He did start betting at some point, but as the table was very cold, I kept winning my don't bets, and he kept losing his do bets. Everytime someone sevened-out, he would mutter about the "negativity" on the table.

After a seven-out, he would usually sit out a shooter or two, just taking up space, and then start betting again, only to lose again. When he was rolling, he would increase the amount of his do betting, as well as throw tons of chips into the center of the table asking for all kinds of crazy world, hard-way, and hop bet combinations.

He added more money from his wallet 4 or 5 times before he finally lost it all, and then, throwing his hands up in the air, yelled about how there's no way he could possibly win at a table with such "negativity". I pushed my chips towards the dealer and asked to color up, looked at the guy, and said, "You're right. The negativity here is horrible. I'm going to have to take my winnings elsewhere." He didn't respond, but man what a dirty look I got. He stormed away. After they colored up my chips, I threw a tip the boys and said, "Sorry about the negativity," and they all laughed.
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
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January 21st, 2012 at 6:44:07 AM permalink
If you don't mind telling, what is your "don't" betting strategy. I've been following John Patrick's "richochet" method that includes laying the point, adding a don't come bet and a $1 yo (bets act as a hedge against the 7 and 11). Once the don't bet moves to a point, remove the lay and add a second don't come bet and a $1 yo. It seems to work well on a cold table when using the "following the trend" method from do to don't betting.
Tom C
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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January 21st, 2012 at 7:34:30 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'm sure its true. The more bizzare the urban legend,
the more true it is. Christianity is a good example..

Then, are you a Christian?

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