kaysirtap
kaysirtap
Joined: Nov 1, 2011
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November 27th, 2011 at 9:24:58 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

And I never heard of a craps player told there was "no logic" in leaving the table with the casino's money.

Actually, whenever I play I always use the logic that table games play is also "one continuous session" from a financial standpoint. If I were to spend a number of days in a casino or gaming town, I would later retell my net winnings or losses over the period of time. It doesn't matter if I won a little on three days and lost huge on another day, to me it's all about the total at the end of the trip.

However, there are two points worth mentioning.

1) Entertainment value. If you find that you are only enjoying yourself when you've won, then walking away a (temporary) winner is a good feeling and probably a good idea. Speaking for myself, I find myself being entertained just by being around the games.

2) Time value of money. Money now is worth more than the same amount of money in the future, so if you can do something productive with the money you walk away with before you play again, then walking away makes sense. If not (and I assume this is usually the case - unless you're the type that goes to the casino to try and make rent money), then the same money is basically going back to the casino - and to me, that means staying and playing is the same as walking away and coming back the next day.

If the argument is strictly that there is "no logic" in quitting because all play is "one continuous session" (entertainment value aside - these are after all, "advantage players" we're talking about), I would probably agree. But I wouldn't take this to mean that it's NOT okay to leave a video poker machine if you're ahead. It just means that if you return to the same machine the next day, it is basically as if you never left.
Quote: AlanMendelson

why is it OK for craps players to leave with a profit, but its not OK for video poker players?

I would say that this happens because Table Games players tend to believe in streaks at a table (a.k.a. "hot" or "cold" tables), whereas I would think a Video Poker player is a little more objective. Just my opinion.
PeteM
PeteM
Joined: Feb 14, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 9:41:57 AM permalink
Reading back, I've a couple more comments. I never mentioned dice control, which I believe in like I believe in the tooth fairy. And while I grant that VP requires concentration,especially when playing more than one console, aren't the decisions involved per hand far fewer than Blackjack when played correctly? (Don't know, just asking). Lastly, there are NO casino games that require an advanced degree in reaction engines and orbital mechanics to play correctly. To each their own.
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
dm
dm
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 9:59:35 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

What's the difference between my Craps action and what I can also find at video poker? Actually very little.

If I play 8/5 Bonus Poker which has a return of 99.2% with optimal play and MORE LUCK than what the math will tell you, I also get comps and cash back.

At craps I play the passline with max odds and I also get comps including cash offers, shopping sprees, etc. I can also do this with come bets with max odds.

So let's call the "math" of the two different games a "wash."

And let's get back to the basic question: why is it OK for craps players to leave with a profit, but its not OK for video poker players?

And, today there are very few video poker games left with positive paytables.[/q


AP's do not normally play 99.2. Most of them play in Vegas,where there are still not very few AP games. MANY places at least have 10/7 DB. Leaving craps with a profit keeps you from giving back some of that profit. Leaving craps with a loss keeps you from increasing your loss. Leaving craps alone is even more profitable. No one said it's not OK to leave an advantage VP game with a profit, merely not to leave because, being ahead, you suddenly Rob Singred, decided, it is no longer an advantage. Yes, I spelled that as intended.

dm
dm
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November 27th, 2011 at 10:04:14 AM permalink
Quote: PeteM

If I ever personally hold the dice for 40 minutes you'll find me at the top of the Eifel Tower, beating my chest, clutching a CW and flailing at police choppers.




And the loan, if I'm willing to scale Eiffel?
dm
dm
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November 27th, 2011 at 10:10:54 AM permalink
Quote: PeteM

Reading back, I've a couple more comments. I never mentioned dice control, which I believe in like I believe in the tooth fairy. And while I grant that VP requires concentration,especially when playing more than one console, aren't the decisions involved per hand far fewer than Blackjack when played correctly? (Don't know, just asking). Lastly, there are NO casino games that require an advanced degree in reaction engines and orbital mechanics to play correctly. To each their own.





Fewer than BJ? Absolutely not. BJ is way easier, especially some games like one-eyed jacks, or some such, that only Shadow enjoys tackling. He likes to think, I think.
kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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November 27th, 2011 at 11:31:36 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Those of us that are only there for pure profit as AP's, dont care about fun.


What a sad existence, to sit there for hours a day, to make a few dollars, and having no fun.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 11:46:26 AM permalink
Quote: kp

What a sad existence, to sit there for hours a day, to make a few dollars, and having no fun.



I'm sure the same could be said about the cashier at Costco. Your existence isn't defined by how you earn money.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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November 27th, 2011 at 12:22:46 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

These "advantage players" say there is "no logic" in quitting when you're ahead in a session because all video poker play is just one continuous session even when you take a break for lunch or for a night, or even for six months until your next casino visit.
In craps, you bolt from the table after a hot roll or two, or when you have a substantial profit. You take the money and run... until next time. And I never heard of a craps player told there was "no logic" in leaving the table with the casino's money.



So let us see if there really is any difference at all.

Advantage VP player: Doesn't really exist unless its greater than 100 percent and if so we are talking about something like 0.17 percent or some smidgen like that. Now is that an advantage? Would you cross the street for that "advantage". If you are sitting there plugging coins thru the machine like a trained monkey, then instead of peanuts you are getting Free Booze, an occasional chat with an attractive waitress, a comped buffet and a small pittance for your shift. Should you work overtime? Or quit at the eight hour mark? Or try to sneak out early? Heck, I don't know. Depends on what else you got going for you. A retired person might just as well stay and make the five dollars an hour or whatever it works out to.

The craps player who is aware its a negative expectation game and that its all about variance sees no great advantage in staying there. He dives in, wins or loses, and he scurries away. Why should he press his luck? He is there for fun and for "the hope" ... but he is not there to get peanuts in some slow steady grind.

Life is all one session or a fifteen minute break starts a new session? I don't know. I'd like to think even a "day" is arbitrary in the casino. It starts at 4:00am and is not controlled by clocks but even if there were a clock everyone is too drunk to figure out what time it is anyway. So I guess whatever view of it is suitable to you is as good a view to take as any.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 1:14:18 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 1:56:29 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

LMAO at that. We make thousands per session and have well over a 6 figure BR! I wouldn't waste my time for just a few dollars. Holecarding is "fun."



Do you make 'thousands per session' holecarding or at positive EV video poker? It seems to me, but perhaps I am wrong, that a consistent hole carder who is betting enough to consistently make 'thousands per session' would become well known to the casinos and backed off like a successful BJ card counter. But if you can make that much, then it is certainly worth it by anyone's standard of time and money. How long is a 'session' for you?

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