SONBP2
• Posts: 289
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 10:59:03 AM permalink
For argument sake, say I didn't want to make a pass line bet or come bet because I don't want to bet any points besides the 6 or 8. As soon as a point is established, lets say the shooter rolls a 4. Can I then make a direct come bet on the 6 and 8 with max odds or do I have to wait for the shooter to roll a 6 or 8 before I then make my come bet. I know that after a point is established I could then make a pass line bet with max odds on the established point. Further, I know I am giving up my advantage, being paid on a 7/11, on the pass line bet and come bet, but I don't want to have to bet the 4, 5, 9, or 10.

I am not asking about the house edge on this bet. I am asking if and when it is possible to make a come bet w/max odds. Do I have to wait till that point is thrown or can I directly ask for a come bet with max odds on the 6 and 8 after any point is established (obviously if come roll was a 6 or 8 I would just put my money on the pass line)?

Scotty71
• Posts: 289
Joined: Mar 5, 2011
October 26th, 2011 at 11:15:50 AM permalink
No you cant get a come bet without making a come bet. If you want the 6 and/or 8 you will just need to make a place bet in increments of \$6. To get Max odds you have to risk the come or pass line bet and then place your odds on the result. You can make your place bet whenever you want... even before the comeout.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because."  E.E. Cummings
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 11:17:18 AM permalink
Quote: SONBP2

I don't want to have to bet the 4, 5, 9, or 10.

why not? they pay better than the 6 or 8. And it is certainly never worth making a pass line bet late.

Quote: SONBP2

For argument sake.

OK. Isn't there something about making a 'put' bet? I never go down those roads.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
SONBP2
• Posts: 289
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 11:24:46 AM permalink
Define pay better? They pay more, but not necessarily better because the odds simply pay the true odds for that point. Its more likely to throw a 6 or 8 then a 4, 5, 9, or 10.

I am not familiar with put bets, but I believe that is an option.
boymimbo
• Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 11:30:26 AM permalink
Always use a put bet on a 6 and 8 when the odds allowed are more than 5x if you are placing more than 6x minimum.

On the 6 and 8, a put bet of \$5 with \$100 odds pays \$125. A \$108 place bet will pay \$126. You save \$2.
On the 5 and 9, a put bet of \$5 with \$100 odds pays \$155. A \$105 place bet will pay \$147. You save \$8.
On the 4 and 10, a put bet of \$5 with \$100 odds pays \$205. A \$105 place bet will pay \$189. You save \$16. Of course a \$100 buy will pay you \$195 after commission after a win. This is a better bet.

If you can find a table with lower minimums and higher odds, you're in heaven.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
FleaStiff
• Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 11:32:41 AM permalink
Do not get Place Bets and Come Bets and Put Bets mixed up.

Do not forget that a PassLine bet and a Come Bet are the same bet made at different times. EXACT same bet. Different times.

A Put Bet is a "line bet that has already traveled to your designated point number"... so instead of going through the ComeBet area and traveling to a point number chosen by the dice, it is a stack of chips that you position in the Come area but tell the dealer is a Put Bet on the "X" and it IMMEDIATELY travels to the point number that YOU, not the dice, chose. Not all casinos allow put bets. Not all dealers know how to properly position the flat bet portion and the odds portion of a put bet, so you should know the math if they are not familiar with Put Bets. In making a Put bet you are giving up the right to "win" on a 7 or 11. Only make put bets if the math is right and the dealer knows how to do it right and you are in a casino that allows put bets.

Think of it all in terms of the Pass Line. Its made when there is no Point and the Hockey Puck is saying OFF and the Stickman is intoning "The Dice Are Coming Out".

A Come Bet is made when there already IS a point that has been established, the Hockey Puck is saying ON and is physically resting at whatever the current point number is. A come bet has the same rules. The only difference is:
For a PassLine Bet made on a ComeOUT roll, the Hockey Puck is the object that indicates what point number turned out to be established by the shooter, but for a ComeBet made after the Hockey Puck is already positioned at some Point Number, the ComeBettor has his stack of chips MOVED by the dealer as if it is that Bettor's own personal Hockey Puck indicating what the Bettor's own personal "point number" is for that specific ComeBet he just made.

If the stickman were so inclined and you were shooting, he could point to the hockey puck and say that is your point for the pass line bet you made and then point to your existing ComeBet and say "that is the hockey puck" for you come Bet that you made.

Have I confused you even worse?
Wizard
• Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 12:24:43 PM permalink
6 and 8: Bettor must combine a put with with 5X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.52% as a place bet.
5 and 9: Bettor must combine a put with with 4X odds to have the same overall house edge of 4.00% as a place bet.
4 and 10: Bettor must combine a put with with 19X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.67% as a buy bet, assuming the commission is paid on a win only. If the commission is always paid then the bettor must combine a put with with 6X odds to match the 4.76% house edge.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ayecarumba
• Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 12:40:39 PM permalink
Can the "non-odds" portion of a Put bet be taken down at any time, like a place bet? I don't think so, but would like confirmation.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
FleaStiff
• Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 1:10:40 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Can the "non-odds" portion of a Put bet be taken down at any time, like a place bet? I don't think so, but would like confirmation.

No, the flat portion that is the non-odds portion can never be taken down once made but then again, why would you ever want to? You've already given up a chance to win on 7 or 11... you've already put money at risk of loss ... and now you want to end all possibility of profit by taking it down?

So its a double "no". No you can't do it and No you shouldn't even want to do it.
DJTeddyBear
• Posts: 11006
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 1:34:39 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

No, the flat portion that is the non-odds portion can never be taken down once made but then again, why would you ever want to? You've already given up a chance to win on 7 or 11... you've already put money at risk of loss ... and now you want to end all possibility of profit by taking it down?

So its a double "no". No you can't do it and No you shouldn't even want to do it.

Really? I would have thought that since you can make a put bet at any time, that you can take it down at any time as well. Besides, when did you "give up a chance to win on 7 or 11? Are you confusing a Put bet with a Come bet?

For what it's worth, years ago, I took one of those beginners Craps classes at Stratosphere. I already knew how to play, but I had half an hour to kill....

The two things I got out of it were:

A - They never taught the most basic thing. I.E. The relationship between where you're standing, and where your chips are positioned when a dealer moves them.

B - They got way over the heads of people by explaining that a \$6 Place on 6/8 is actually a \$1 Put with \$5 odds. Similarly, a \$5 Place on 5/9 is a \$1 Put with \$4 odds.

Based upon that little tidbit, and that you can take down / turn off Place bets at will, I'd assume you can do the same with Put bets.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/  Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SONBP2
• Posts: 289
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
October 26th, 2011 at 3:33:45 PM permalink
What is the house edge for a put bet on the 6 or 8 with 10x odds?
Ayecarumba
• Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
October 27th, 2011 at 12:46:57 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Really? I would have thought that since you can make a put bet at any time, that you can take it down at any time as well. Besides, when did you "give up a chance to win on 7 or 11? Are you confusing a Put bet with a Come bet?...

Based upon that little tidbit, and that you can take down / turn off Place bets at will, I'd assume you can do the same with Put bets.

I think FleaStiff is right, and that the "Put" bet is akin to walking up to a table where the point was just established, and placing a line bet on the point. You can add an odds bet, which you can choosed to be on or off, but the new line bet always works until it is resolved. Once "put", it is as if you placed the flat portion prior to the come-out.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Wizard
• Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
October 27th, 2011 at 1:11:19 PM permalink
Quote: SONBP2

What is the house edge for a put bet on the 6 or 8 with 10x odds?

The house edge of any put bet is f(pt)/(1+odds), where f(4,10)=1/3, f(5,9)=1/5, f(6,8)=1/11.

So, in this example, (1/11)/(1+10) = 1/121 = 0.83%.

Here is another way to put it.

For points of 4 to 6: ((7-p)/(5+p))*(1/(1+o))
For points of 8 to 10: ((p-7)/(19-p))*(1/(1+o))

where p = point, and o=odds.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AlanMendelson
• Posts: 5937
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
October 27th, 2011 at 5:02:10 PM permalink
Are there many casinos that allow the put bet? I know they do at Caesars but when there is a new floorman they will question me when I tell them I am increasing my flat bet on the pass to increase my odds when the shooter is making numbers. When they question what Im doing I say "its like making a put bet" and then theyll nod ok.
wrragsdale
• Posts: 25
Joined: Mar 7, 2011
December 9th, 2011 at 8:49:09 PM permalink
Mr. Wizard, in the Anything-But-7 system, what would the HA be if I waited for the point to be established on the first or second roll ( if the point is established on the third roll or after then I don't bet), bet the 5,6,8, and field and see the resolution on the very next roll, and then turned my bets off until the next shooter?
I start with 10,12,12 5(field). I do use a Martingale if the 7 pops. The next bet would be 60,72,72, 40(field). If the 7 pops would be 600,612,612, 300(field) so I buy in with 2,500
I've played this for the last 4 months for 9 sessions and have not lost. I have used the second series of bets but haven't had to use the 3rd series as of yet.
What are the probabilities of the first series? Looking for that specific roll?
The second series?
The third series?
Funny story recently where a pit boss got tired of me turning my place bets off and waiting patiently to then turn them on and back off again. He had the boxman take them down without asking. I was very polite and just re-bet them and kept on with the system. Why would this aggravate them? It is a legal bet, huh?
100xOdds
• Posts: 4346
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March 11th, 2012 at 6:01:17 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Are there many casinos that allow the put bet? I know they do at Caesars but when there is a new floorman they will question me when I tell them I am increasing my flat bet on the pass to increase my odds when the shooter is making numbers. When they question what Im doing I say "its like making a put bet" and then theyll nod ok.

casino royale allows put bets.
love their 100x odds
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
RaleighCraps
• Posts: 2501
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
March 11th, 2012 at 6:20:48 AM permalink
In the casinos I have played in that allowed Put bets, NONE of them allow you to take down the base bet of the Put. You can pull back your odds, but not the base bet.

This makes sense when you think it through. As another poster showed, when you are making 20x odds bets, the Put bet pays you slightly better than a Place bet, for the same amount of money. So if the casino let you pull both bets back all the time, no one would bet a place bet. Instead, the casino allows you to make a Put bet, and have the slightly better pay over a Place bet, but the price you pay is, you cannot remove the base bet.

I bet some of you have made a Put bet and didn't even realize it!
Here is how it happens. You have made 2 Come bets, and let's day they are on the 6 and the 9. You are bs'ing with the person next to you, and forget to make a new Come bet. The 6 is rolled. As the dealer is paying off your Come bet and the odds, you say "Crap, I forgot to put my new Come bet out there."
The dealer says, "No problem. I can just put you right back up and just give you the winnings. Would you like me to do that for you?"

If you accepted that gracious offer, you just made a PUT bet. And, if you were playing less than around 10x odds, you also just made a worse bet than if you had just told the dealer to make it a PLACE bet instead.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!