dice setting at Wheeling Island

I read a post at Casino City times that Wheeling Isle Casino in West Virginia has banned any setting of the dice. Has anyone seen this yet? Actually they said they banned any setting or shaking of the dice which makes no sense at all because if you set them you certainly would not shake them and if you shake them you are certainly not trying to influence any result.

Does that mean I can not put them in my mouth and spit them out against the back wall ?

Quote: buzzpaff

Does that mean I can not put them in my mouth and spit them out against the back wall ?

Only if you brush your teeth before each throw.

Of course that would slow down the game. So I'm guessing no.

Quote: MrRalph

I read a post at Casino City times that Wheeling Isle Casino in West Virginia has banned any setting of the dice.

It was only a matter of time. I was reading an interview with
a former casino manager and he said the floor spends way
too much time worrying about advantage players. He says
its useless 'chasing ghosts', that only a tiny fraction of the
players counting cards or setting dice actually have an edge,
but they don't want even one person to be beating them so
they sit up nights fretting about it.

They had no objection to the way I handled the dice on my only visit, which was three years ago, and I always set the dice the same way just for the fun of it. Things could have changed, I suppose. My guess is that they are less concerned with effective dice precision throwers than with those folks who take twenty seconds or more to release the dice. If that's correct, then they probably only enforce the "rule" selectively when someone is bogging things down.

And no, buzzpaff, you're not allowed to put the dice in your mouth any more than you are allowed to switch them from hand to hand. Can you just imagine someone trying to introduce loaded dice hidden under his tongue?

While playing at the Meadows several months ago, we were talking to a fellow craps player who said exactly what you read. He went so far as to say that if you did ANYTHING more that pick up the dice the way they were slid to you a no-roll would be called. Even just shaking them in your hand. If all of this is true, I see no reason to play there at all. I do not set the dice but certainly don't mind those that do. Seems to me that everyone's little quirks is what makes the game enjoyable.

Quote: MrRalph

I read a post at Casino City times that Wheeling Isle Casino in West Virginia has banned any setting of the dice. Has anyone seen this yet? Actually they said they banned any setting or shaking of the dice which makes no sense at all because if you set them you certainly would not shake them and if you shake them you are certainly not trying to influence any result.

I think it may be more of a misguided attempt to speed up the game (read, sweat the money).

I have seen people set the dice, then shake them. Back in '09 at the Stratosphere, this guy bet on hard ten when he was shooting. He'd take the dice, set the 5-5 on top, rub the dice one the table, then pick them up, shake them and throw them. I took it for a superstitious ritual, or maybe a habit. the dealers let him, no players seemed to mind, but he did slow the game a bit.

So if you are supposed to just pick the dice and throw, the game should go faster.

If speed is their concern, here's what I'd do: shake them. Then when they object, insist on seeing the rule. They're gone rethink things during THAT delay...

I don't set my dice, but I do like to shake them. I mean, what makes Craps different from, say, Sic bo, aside from getting to yell and cheer, is that you actually get to handle the dice yourself -- you actually have some control over what you're betting on, which you don't in many other games. Not letting me at least shake the dice before I toss them is removing some of the fun of that.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If speed is their concern, here's what I'd do: shake them. Then when they object, insist on seeing the rule. They're gone rethink things during THAT delay...

I like it :)

For the next edition of the Oxford dictionary, your picture should be on the entry for "ornery" (that's a compliment, really)

I applaud the decision of the casino to bar dice setting.

Superstitious, time-wasting affectation, is all it is.

All games have their quirks. You can use a basic strategy card at Black Jack or Spanish 21. Baccarat players tear up the cards ,other players lament over every decision sometimes with much less money at stake then the averaage roll at a craps table. I know there are more dealers at a craps table so it costs more to offer that game but there are also more players with larger bets and a lot of bets with a high house edge. A player should be able to shake them, set them or what ever the hell they want to as long as it does not hold up the game and the dice reach the backwall. (with the exception of Buz putting them in his mouth)The casinos are getting like insurance companies. Pay your premium but do not have a claim or we will get rid of you. Dice setters or dice shakers are the least of the problems at the tables compared to the idiots who never took time to learn the game.They do not know how to bet or make late bets or scream out there bets before it is time. They do not know the order the bets are paid off or even what their bets are suppose to pay, then they argue with the dealer. This is what holds the game up. I for one will pass on Wheeling Isle from now on. My thinking would be if they are this tight with the craps rules then the pay tables on everything else probably suck as well.

Quote: Nareed

I like it :)

For the next edition of the Oxford dictionary, your picture should be on the entry for "ornery" (that's a compliment, really)

I'm not that ornery, but I understand and DO take it as a compliment.

BTW: DON'T shake them on your come out. Wait till you have a point to shoot for. I.E. Wait until you can't just pick up the chips, pass the dice and leave. Force thier hand. :B

Quote: Nareed

Only if you brush your teeth before each throw.

Of course that would slow down the game. So I'm guessing no.

I demand a raise. In vaudeville the straight man always got paid more. Because everybody wanted to be the comedian. No matter who's on first ,Abbott got first billing and at least 51%.

There's two reasons for the dice decision

1. Setting dice is slowing down the game.
2. There really are a couple of very well run Argentinean AP dice crews operating in the US right now. However, they aren't setting the dice like most here would set them. They are mainly sliders, and spin shots. They are high end operators. Currently gaming officials aren't sure as to how many teams there are in operation. Right now many casinos are reevaluating their risk and game procedures at the dice tables as a direct result. This includes the Wynn.

Truth is stranger than Fiction. REALLY. Damn, dice setters got this cynic wondering ???

DICE CHEATING-LAWSUIT

Las Vegas casino sues 2 over cheating at craps

LAS VEGAS (AP) - A Las Vegas resort has sued two Argentine nationals, claiming they illegally won about $700,000 in craps by using an uncommon form of cheating known as "dice sliding."

The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports Wynn Las Vegas filed the lawsuit in Clark County District Court against Leonardo Fernandez and Veronica Dabul.

The two were arrested by Nevada Gaming Control Board agents on July 18 on suspicion of resorting to dice sliding to cheat the resort with the help of several unidentified customers who placed bets and distracted craps dealers.

Dice sliding involves sliding at least 1 of the dice across the table after positioning it in the hand so the desired number remains face up.

Efforts to each the defendants were not immediately successful.


Your comment DAN LUBIN !!

Quote: buzzpaff

I demand a raise. In vaudeville the straight man always got paid more. Because everybody wanted to be the comedian. No matter who's on first ,Abbott got first billing and at least 51%.

But do you know Who's on first?

Quote: Nareed

But do you know Who's on first?

" CERTAINLY "

I vote that they are sweating the money. PA casinos, espically Meadows, are killing them. As OH comes online there goes a lot of their remaining base. The place is far too large to be a pure "locals" casino for the Wheeling or even panhandle market. I have heard stories from there and Mountaineer that dealer layoffs are no longer keeping pace with loss of players, meaning staffing even minimum tables is starting to kill toke rates. So you have to figure that the casino hurts as well.

I still think back to class where I was setting them and using the "rosebut-lob" and the instructor looked at me and shook his head. Same instructor just said, "they are not supposed to" when a few ladies in class made me explain to him what I was doing as I picked up the dice. But he said it with a reaction that it was something the casino basically had to tolerate or else would drive players away.

And this is what will happen to Wheeling Island. It happens in lots of poorly-managed businesses. The management tries to "solve" something that is not a probem and POes the regulars. So they go elsewhere. Then they "solve" another the same way. Eventually they are at an empty casino, wondering why everyone is playing across the street.

Perhaps in the same mabnner as "Restaurant Impossible" and "Bar Rescue" there should be a reality show called "Casino Rescue" where a crew comes in and teaches better customer service, that hassling people that might be counting costs business, and all that nonesense costs money to the house?

Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: Who's playing first?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?

Abbott: Every dollar of it.

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that gets...

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Who gets the money...

Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.

Costello: Whose wife?

Abbott: Yes.

bott: What's wrong with that?

Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: How does he sign...

Abbott: That's how he signs it.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.

Abbott: No. What is on second base.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: One base at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

Baloney! I hate dice setters. Some of the shooters are so oblivious that they roll the dice in front of themselves a couple of times, even before setting them. It terribly slows down the game and frankly I'm suspicious that there is some actual control of the dice. That's right. When I bring up the subject, I get some ridicule because the dice have to be bounced off of the back wall, but the way the setters obviate this requirement, is throw the dice about an inch or two from the back wall so that there is actually very little in the way rotation of the dice. I'm a fairly regular dice player and I like the new restrictions. More speed and a fairer roll. It sounds good to me. Right on!

Here's how it works.

These aren't dice setters as people know the term. The dice setting schools are basically a load of blarney. These are people that are polished experts at manipulating and sliding dice, and spinning dice. In order to successfully slide or spin the dice, they have to manipulate the dice by subtly dulling the edges in most games.

When shooting the dice, they hit the back wall most of the time, until they need a hit. They may slide one dice, while letting the other dice fly free, creating the illusion of a random toss. These aren't people that are openly setting the dice like fools. These are likely very skill players.

They likely also deposit so much money in the cage that the casino will grant their style of play out of fear that they player will walk out the door. `When several hundred thousand are on deposit, casino managers will sometimes get stupid. They will offer rebates, bend the rules of the games, and will overlook certain things when it comes to procedure. For example, allowing the player to come up short of the back wall at times is no big deal when it's someone betting very big on a regular basis. Offering a 10 to 15% rebate on a loss is also another perk that's available in some casinos.

There's one more catch to this game. Casinos are also dirty players. The casinos will let some of these teams somewhat openly cheat. For example, these sliders. If they lose, fine. The casino gets their money. However, if the casino loses, then they can file a patron gaming dispute with the gaming commission. If front money is on deposit, then the casino probably attempted to freeze that money as well. If gaming takes up the case, they can delay payout to the player for a very long time. If gaming rules against the casino, they can file an appeal, etc... The casino can draw this out for years. (Caesars Palace is rather infamous for doing this to certain players.) The Wynn is now trying their hand at the predatory gaming game as well.

In short, you have sliders trying to get the upper hand, and a bitter casino basically committing 'bad faith' by trying to get out of paying the players. It's predatory gaming at it's finest. The mistake the players made was not making the casino believe that they had a real shot at winning their money.

-Keyser

Quote: Keyser

In short, you have sliders trying to get the upper hand, and a bitter casino basically committing 'bad faith' by trying to get out of paying the players. It's predatory gaming at it's finest..

AP's against the Dark Side. My vote is for the AP's.

Quote: buzzpaff

I demand a raise. In vaudeville the straight man always got paid more. Because everybody wanted to be the comedian. No matter who's on first ,Abbott got first billing and at least 51%.

Rowan and Martin. Martin and Lewis. And practically all the ventriloquists.

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

Abbott: Why you mentioned his name.

Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?

Abbott: No. Who's playing first.

Costello: What's on first?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third.

Costello: There I go, back on third again!

Costello: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it.

Abbott: All right, what do you want to know?

Costello: Now who's playing third base?

Abbott: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?

Costello: What am I putting on third.

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: You don't want who on second?

Abbott: Who is on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together:Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta outfield?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: I just thought I'd ask you.

Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya.

Costello: Then tell me who's playing left field.

Abbott: Who's playing first.

Costello: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field?

Abbott: No, What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first!

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

Quote: AZDuffman

I vote that they are sweating the money. PA casinos, espically Meadows, are killing them. As OH comes online there goes a lot of their remaining base. The place is far too large to be a pure "locals" casino for the Wheeling or even panhandle market. I have heard stories from there and Mountaineer that dealer layoffs are no longer keeping pace with loss of players, meaning staffing even minimum tables is starting to kill toke rates. So you have to figure that the casino hurts as well.

Absolutely agree with this comment. Wheeling Island seems to offer a different craps game every time I go there (not that I go there that often, it's basically an Isle of Capri lite to me, with a FAR worse poker room nowadays). They had $3, 3-4-5 odds for a while, then $5 with 10x odds. My first time (before the PA casinos opened) it was $10 with 5x odds. The foray into $3 was while they were training new dealers, so I got that.

Wheeling Island is not getting "hit" with dice setters. But they do have some people who slow the game immensely. They also have people who play who waste space. There was one guy who worked at least $200 on the 6 and 8, sometimes 9 and 5, that would wait until a shooter got "hot." In about 4 hours I would say his bets were off nearly all the time, only being called "ON" for 3 or 4 rolls. Sometimes he'd turn it on for one roll, then immediately call it off. Players like that eat up space and time, and ultimately money.

Quote: EvenBob

AP's against the Dark Side. My vote is for the AP's.

That's the point isn't it. The dark side players rely on 7 coming out, as it should, about once every 6 rolls and the aggressive players want something very different. These are games of chance and the probabilities should be real. In addition, setting the dice wastes a lot of time and is quite boring.

Finally, digressing from the topic, the straight men do not get paid more. In fact, Lou Abbott, of Abbott & Costello wanted to rename the the act as Costello and Abbott, fortunately this was not done.