Treasure Island Craps Bet: All Small, All Tall, All or Nothing at All

I'm interested in the true odds on a new bet I saw at Treasure Island this last week. I have not seen it at other casinos.

1. The "All Small" bet pays 35 for 1, and pays when you roll a 2,3,4,5,6 before a 7. The bet carries over if you make your point, and only cancels when a 7 is rolled.

2. The "All Tall" bet pays the same 35 for 1, and pays when you roll a 8,9,10,11,12 before a 7. Same odds as the "All Small".

3. The big bet is the "All or Nothing at All" which pays around 170 for 1 I believe (not exactly sure: between 145 and 175). It pays when you roll every number except a 7, before you roll a 7.

I put a dollar on each of the 3 bets after every 7 and hit the big payoff once over 2 hours, (paying the equivalent of about 240 for 1, which includes the 35, 35, and 170)

I then started playing 3 dollars on each after every 7 and hit the big payoff once over 2 hours a couple nights after, paying me over $700 for the $9.

If anyone can figure out the true odds I'd appreciate it.

https://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix4.html#smalltall

Quote: sjoens

I'm interested in the true odds on a new bet I saw at Treasure Island this last week. I have not seen it at other casinos.

I think SamsTown on the Boulder Strip has that.

Quote: FleaStiff

I think SamsTown on the Boulder Strip has that.

In May 2011, was at the Wynn and they now have the "All, Tall and Small Bet" it on a few of their craps tables.

In my opinion, with the new table felt, it really changed the table characterists. A year ago I was very successful on several of their craps tables.

This year I helped them pay the light bill.

Eagledice

Quote: eagledice

In May 2011, was at the Wynn and they now have the "All, Tall and Small Bet" it on a few of their craps tables.

Also saw it at the Encore the day after WoVCon I.

OMG! It's the new Fire Bet!

Seriously, how does it compare to the Fire Bet? According to a hurried look at the Wizard's site yesterday evening, this bet trio has a lower house edge, but also a lower payoff.

Quote: Nareed

Seriously, how does it compare to the Fire Bet?

Not exactly. There are several important differences.


There are three different bets in the All bet series.

Only one bet for FireBet.


A seven on a mid-roll come-out kills the All bets, requiring replacement mid-roll.

FireBets can only be made at the start of a shooter's roll, and don't come down until the shooter sevens-out.


The biggest difference, the All bet is counter to traditional craps betting. I.E. You're not interested in points, but numbers. A seven is always bad.




I saw it last Sept at Wynn. About 10 people at the table, only 1 guy playing it. $5 every 7 - $2 on each of the High and Low, $1 on the All. I was there about half an hour, and he never got paid.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Not exactly. There are several important differences.


There are three different bets in the All bet series.

Only one bet for FireBet.

My mistake. I meant as far as house edge and pay-outs. I realize the mechanics are quite different.

Quote:

I saw it last Sept at Wynn. About 10 people at the table, only 1 guy playing it. $5 every 7 - $2 on each of the High and Low, $1 on the All. I was there about half an hour, and he never got paid.

Sucker bets are weird. In some games virtually everyone plays them, in some games everyone plays one or two but avoid another, and new side bets, I presume, take time to be accepted by more than a handful of players.

As side bets go, the FireBet is appealing in that that it's one bet for the duration of the shooter's turn.

It's the only side bet I ever play, and I think other people play it, while not playing other side bets, for the same reason.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I saw it last Sept at Wynn. About 10 people at the table, only 1 guy playing it. $5 every 7 - $2 on each of the High and Low, $1 on the All. I was there about half an hour, and he never got paid.

Is it still at the Wynn?

Quote: MathExtremist

Is it still at the Wynn?

I haven't been back to Vegas since then.

At the time, I hadn't heard of it, so I asked if I could take a picture of the layout. The pit poss said no, because the table was being used.

Of the 15 or so craps tables in that pit, it was the only one that had it. As it happened, on a weekday afternoon, it was also the only table open (besides the one private table with a whale playing).

The pit boss did say I should check at T.I. and maybe they have one not in use for a photo. I never got there.

Yes all tables at Winn and Encore has this bet
I hit them at last January, $5 each on low, high, and all turned into a lot of $

Quote: sjoens

I'm interested in the true odds on a new bet I saw at Treasure Island this last week. I have not seen it at other casinos.

It used to be a prime reason to forgo the 20x odds and great beer at Main Street Station and instead accept the 10x odds and good beer at Sams Town. Some craps players know the math and the reasoning involved but they simply enjoy the more wild or exotic bets such as the Fire Bet or the All Tall/All Small etc. offerings.

Its a lure the casino dangles and it appeals to some players. For those who enjoy a more upscale atmosphere than the Boulder Strip, its good to know that these exotic bets are available elsewhere. Most people choose hotels based on a variety of factors including Food, Drink, etc., but spousal preference seems to be a primary factor also. So knowing that the bet is now more widely available will surely be of value.

It still remains a gimmick and a bet that is far outside the "Basic Strategy" and 0.85 percent house edge stuff that the mathematically inclined would recommend, but as a dealer once said about some side bet "Its only a buck and your wife will complain all night long if you don't bet on it and it hits".

I'm interested in the true odds too. I don't think 35:1 payout is a good deal for the player.

Quote: Alan

I'm interested in the true odds too. I don't think 35:1 payout is a good deal for the player.

I'm taking the liberty of reproducing a segment of the Wizard's table at the WOO site here:

The Small bet wins if the shooter rolls a 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 before rolling a seven. The Tall bet wins if the shooter rolls an 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 before rolling a seven. A win pays 34 to 1, or 35 for 1. The odds on both bets are the same: a house edge of 7.76%.

Event ...Pays.....Probability......Return
Win.....34.........0.026354.......0.896033
Loss.....-1.........0.973646.......-0.973646
Total................ 1.................-0.077614

The All bet wins if the shooter rolls a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 before rolling a seven: pays 174 to 1, or 175 for 1, a house edge of 7.99%.

Event Pays Probability Return
Win 174 0.005258 0.91484
Loss -1 0.994742 -0.994742
Total 1 -0.079903

.............................................End of edited snippet.................................................


Now the important point is how does this house edge rank with other bets available in the casino and most particularly with other bets available at the craps table.

First, lets round all those decimal places and just say its "about 8 percent house edge" on these sidebets.
Okay. Its what? 5.26 percent in the Field. Its darn near 17 percent if you are on Big Red. So how bad is 8 percent compared to the PassLine of 1.414 percent and a PassLineWithOdds of 0.85 percent house edge?

Yipes. The math beats the hell out me. Place Bets are better than these side bets. Line bet are certainly better than these side bets.
Then of course the payoff is a alot better on the side bet, if it hits.

If Basic Strategy is to make a line bet sufficient to have most of your money be on the soon-to-be-made OddsBet, then this SideBet stuff sure is a departure. Most side bets tend to be modest amounts and are sort of designed to be impulse bets. You got a one dollar chip in your hand, you can put in your rack or you can put it on the side bet: many people opt for side bet. Dealers might prefer you opt for "toke" and CWs certainly prefer it be "toke" but the house wants you to opt for the Side Bet. That's the business they are in.

Is it "right"? Darned if I know!!
Everyone says avoid the prop bets that the stick man keeps pushing and those range from 11 percent to 17 percent house edge.
So how bad is 8 percent?
Some players refuse to Place the 5 or 9 because the house edge is 4.0 percent.
Most players refuse to Place the 4 or 10 because the house edge is darn near 7 percent.

"Should" a player be doing these somewhat exotic side bets?

Quote: FleaStiff

"Should" a player be doing these somewhat exotic side bets?

"Should"?

Let's not forget that these are also called "Sucker bets".

Of course, the biggest sucker bet is slot machines, yet that's where the majority of the players are.

Could it be that people who say 'yes' to the "should" question, are people that like the potential big payoff of a slot machine, but also like playing table games?

>Let's not forget that these are also called "Sucker bets".
Yes, and once a stickchick actually called out "Sucker Bets, S and M bets, B and D bets"...

>Of course, the biggest sucker bet is slot machines, yet that's where the majority of the players are.
Yes and as I understand the math most slot machines are going to be better for the player than the All/Small/Tall side bet at craps.
If I recall the 2010 figures, a Strip penny slot had a casino Win Rate of 12.5 percent, A dollar machine had a casino win rate of 6.6 percent and a 25.00 machine had a casino win rate of 2.92 percent. So with all these blackjack and craps side bets... are the casinos really trying to ensnare the would-be Sharpies?

> are people that like the potential big payoff of a slot machine, but also like playing table games?
The best of both worlds. Unfortunately, that's rarely possible.

The game can beat once the 2,3 or 11, and 12 are rolled. You lay the 4,5,6,8,9,10. Guarrantee win. Either play the Small or Tall for an easy way. You only have to roll a 2,3 or 11,12. The All bet is harder. You need to roll 2,3,11,12. Either way, once you can pass these nunbers you lay against the other numbers to protect against the seven.

Interesting premise. I wonder if we could embark on a hedging strategy...

Will they let you place the small or tall bet after the 2,3,11, and/or 12 have rolled?

I've played the bet at the IP in Biloxi, and you have to make the bet at the start of the shooter's roll. Once they have made a number, they are not going to let you bet it.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I've played the bet at the IP in Biloxi, and you have to make the bet at the start of the shooter's roll. Once they have made a number, they are not going to let you bet it.

That's the Fire Bet.

The All bets are made after any roll of a 7. This includes a mid-roll come out 7.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

That's the Fire Bet.

The All bets are made after any roll of a 7. This includes a mid-roll come out 7.

That is true, but think about what happens after a mid roll 7 ??????

Oh, are you saying if a shooter makes their point, and rolls a come out 7, the small, tall, all bets all lose? So they are ACTIVE on come out rolls?

My first roll on the table I rolled the stupid ALL bet, but no one was playing it. I started playing it a few times after that, but not enough to be sure if it was active on come out rolls or not. I didn't think it was. Basically, I just kept forgetting to make the bet when I could do it.


BTW, A Fire Bet can be made late, if the shooter has not yet established a point. In other words, if the new shooter has rolled a couple of craps and a 7, you can still get on the Fire bet.

Quote: RaleighCraps

That is true, but think about what happens after a mid roll 7 ??????

That's why I specified a mid-roll come out 7.

Quote: RaleighCraps

BTW, A Fire Bet can be made late, if the shooter has not yet established a point. In other words, if the new shooter has rolled a couple of craps and a 7, you can still get on the Fire.

That's the conventional wisdom. However, some casinos do NOT allow this type of late Fire Bet.

HEY! No fair editing your post while I was quoting it!

Quote: RaleighCraps

Oh, are you saying if a shooter makes their point, and rolls a come out 7, the small, tall, all bets all lose? So they are ACTIVE on come out rolls?

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Although I never played it, I watched for about half an hour at the Wynn. There was only one guy playing. $5 every time ($2 on small and tall, $1 on all). Every time a 7 rolled, come-out or new shooter, he threw in a red. Never got paid during the 30 minutes I was there....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

HEY! No fair editing your post while I was quoting it!

Hey, No fair answering my post until I am finished ;-)

I read your post, fired off a response, and THEN decided to think about what you wrote. (I still managed to miss the mid-roll come out 7)

One would hope the rules for the Small, Tall, All bet would be standard from casino to casino, especially since we know all the other craps rules are standardized...........
Next time I am in Biloxi, I will make it a point to check out the IP craps tables again, specifically to WATCH this bet. I have limited my craps play to Beau Rivage, as that is the only place I am consistently holding my own. I have had NO winning sessions at IP, and most have been very short with high losses, so I am done there. I will play $200 at Harrah's Grand just to keep my Reward Points alive. At least I have won a few times there, but they are so stingy with their rating it is not worth plunking down real money.

Quote: RaleighCraps

One would hope the rules for the Small, Tall, All bet would be standard from casino to casino, especially since we know all the other craps rules are standardized...........

Well, not all rules. I.E. Some casinos, buy bets pay the vig up front, some only on a win. The difference is minor. Some Donts bar the 2 instead of the 12. There's no real difference. Etc.

The discrepancy in the late Fire bet option comes from a "sweat the money" mindset. I.E. If you watch a shooter's first roll, and he appears to be a precision shooter, and you're lucky enough that he didn't roll a point number, you might be inclined to make that late Fire bet. If the casino is sweating the money, they may think of that as an advantage play.

Changing the rules for the All bets from Any 7 to a 7-out is a huge change in the bet as well as the odds. After all, many shooters will hit multiple 7s in a roll.

The All bet and Fire bet are conceptually similar. The major difference is the Fire bet is looking for different successful passes. As such, come-out 7s are OK. The All bets is looking for different rolls. As such, the All bets lose on Any 7.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Well, not all rules. I.E. Some casinos, buy bets pay the vig up front, some only on a win. The difference is minor. Some Donts bar the 2 instead of the 12. There's no real difference. Etc.

I was contrarily trying to point out that craps games already have various ways of playing the same bets, so different rules on ALL ,Small, or Tall would not be unheard of.

Note to self - I REALLY need to start using emoticons, to avoid dry wit being mistaken for reality........... ;-)

As far as the box sweating the Fire Bet, by not allowing you to play it after a comeout 7 has been rolled.... Why would they sweat a bet that has a 20% HE? Just because a 7 has rolled, it has NO BEARING at all on the Fire Bet you are about to make. Even if they allowed you to make the bet IMMEDIATELY after the point has been established, it would not affect the HE on the bet. Any box/pit that is doing that as a sweat the money move is a complete tool.


Now I have a question for the math gurus.

Two casinos have the Small, Tall, All bet. Both casinos pay out the same.

In casino A, the comeout roll does not count. So a 7 does not lose your bet. However, that also means any number other than a 7 also does not count towards resolving the bet.

In casino B, every roll counts. You make the bet, and if a 7 rolls, they take it down. However, that also means that on comeout rolls, any number other than 7 helps resolve your bet.

The question is, Is the house edge the same for both casinos?

I think it is, since every roll is independent of any other, so whether the bet is active every roll, or only active a various times, should not change the HE of the bet. I eqaute this to making a Place bet 6, and then turning it off and on every other roll. It just doesn't change the HE.

Yes, per bet. The house edge per roll is lower at casino A, so you'll lose more slowly there.

Quote: MathExtremist

Yes, per bet. The house edge per roll is lower at casino A, so you'll lose more slowly there.

all right. So it is conceivable then, that a casino could choose to run the bet as working or not working on Comeout rolls, depending on which way they find it to flow the best.
Now I am really curious to see how they were doing it at IP.

Quote: RaleighCraps

As far as the box sweating the Fire Bet, by not allowing you to play it after a comeout 7 has been rolled.... Why would they sweat a bet that has a 20% HE? Just because a 7 has rolled, it has NO BEARING at all on the Fire Bet you are about to make. Even if they allowed you to make the bet IMMEDIATELY after the point has been established, it would not affect the HE on the bet. Any box/pit that is doing that as a sweat the money move is a complete tool.

I agree completely. I was just suggesting a possible reason for the rule.

As far as your two All bet scenarios, even before I read the other replies, I was gonna say that they are the same. However, that wasn't how I read your description earlier. Was that what you intended?

Of course, because of it's high house edge, I'd be surprised to find a casino that's willing to have come-out rolls not count. That means they get their edge slower / less often...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I agree completely. I was just suggesting a possible reason for the rule.

As far as your two All bet scenarios, even before I read the other replies, I was gonna say that they are the same. However, that wasn't how I read your description earlier. Was that what you intended?

Of course, because of it's high house edge, I'd be surprised to find a casino that's willing to have come-out rolls not count. That means they get their edge slower / less often...

I'm trying to reason out what I saw, or think I saw, at the IP. I did not play it enough to be able to recall for certain.

The casinos already have the Place and Come bet odds off on come out rolls. Most places have now turned the hardways on by default, but they make sure everyone still says whether they want their hardways ON or OFF. (I assume they changed to default on because it is a center of the table bet, which are almost all one roll bets and working on Come Out rolls.)
So the Small, Tall, and All bets are at the top of the center of the table, but I think that is primarily so the box can easily track the numbers that have rolled.

From a pure take perspective, the house would have all the bets, Small, Tall, All, Hardways, Come Odds, Place bets etc all working all the time. After all, they have the edge on every one of the bets. the only bet that works all the time is the LAY bet, but the player has the edge on the bet, and the house already took their 5% when the bet was made, so the house really could care less if the bet is working or not.

So, I think it boils down to how the casino feels the Small, Tall, All bet flows with the other bets. Do they align it with the Place bets, and have it OFF on come out rolls, or do they align it with the Center Table bets, and have it working all the time?

If they run it like the place bets, that means you can only bet it before the first roll of the shooter, which makes it play just like the Fire Bet, ie. bet on it before the shooter makes their first roll, or wait for the next shooter. This makes it fairly easy and clean to administer.
If they run it all the time, then they would need to remind every one, after each 7 rolls, that the Small, Tall, All bet is once again available to bet. That could mean a lot of bets up and down after every 7 rolls, including the come out 7s.