Has anyone ever seen a real study on dice control?

As far as speed bumps here in Vegas, the Wynn has them, and one other place (I forgot) and that's it as far as I know. I don't remember the other place, but they are rare here in Vegas.

As far as legality, the news reports claimed that these were criminals committing crimes and used the terms "illegal" to describe their throws.

http://www.lvrj.com/business/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-130900938.html

That being said, it's a different conversation than this topic as this form of control is known to exist whether it's been proven or not, it's not the subject of this thread.

MathExtremist, I don't follow your thought.

Dice sliding is not considered a legal throw because the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission says so. If you ask the NGC for the rules of craps, they will honestly tell you, they don't exist on paper. There is no document. In other words, it's accepted and understood among the regulators and the casinos.

It was pointed out on this forum about a year ago that New Jersey actually publishes rules for dice. When I read that here, I contacted the gaming regulators in New Jersey and Nevada and wrote an article about it on my website on this page:

http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id139.html You will have to scroll down the page to find it, the articles are dated. Look for October 2011 articles.

The key paragraph from my article is this:

But when I phoned the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission, Theresa Zellhoefer of the Encorcement Division told me that "Nevada operates differently" than New Jersey and Nevada does not publish specific rules or regulations for the game of craps. "We established minimum controls," she told me, and the casinos have to meet those minimums and they can exceed them, "and then we say okay."

Quote: Ahigh

As far as speed bumps here in Vegas, the Wynn has them, and one other place (I forgot) and that's it as far as I know. I don't remember the other place, but they are rare here in Vegas.

As far as legality, the news reports claimed that these were criminals committing crimes and used the terms "illegal" to describe their throws.

http://www.lvrj.com/business/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-130900938.html

That being said, it's a different conversation than this topic as this form of control is known to exist whether it's been proven or not, it's not the subject of this thread.

When did the Wynn add speed bumps?? If you had speed bumps, dice sliding would be impossible.

When I was there and checked some of the tables not in use, I didn't feel any speed bumps. I made the visit after the LVRJ called me for that story.

You can ask them to get the specific date, but it was at least a few days after the LVRJ article. I think there's a much bigger thread on this topic that I didn't participate in.

Either I've lost the ability to feel a speed bump or they installed those bumps minutes just after I touched the tables.

Now I wonder if the tables that I "felt up" were not being used because they didn't have the speed bumps installed yet?? And only the tables with the speed bumps were in use??

Quote: AlanMendelson

MathExtremist, I don't follow your thought.

Dice sliding is not considered a legal throw because the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission says so. If you ask the NGC for the rules of craps, they will honestly tell you, they don't exist on paper. There is no document. In other words, it's accepted and understood among the regulators and the casinos.

It was pointed out on this forum about a year ago that New Jersey actually publishes rules for dice. When I read that here, I contacted the gaming regulators in New Jersey and Nevada and wrote an article about it on my website on this page:

http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id139.html You will have to scroll down the page to find it, the articles are dated. Look for October 2011 articles.

The key paragraph from my article is this:

But when I phoned the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission, Theresa Zellhoefer of the Encorcement Division told me that "Nevada operates differently" than New Jersey and Nevada does not publish specific rules or regulations for the game of craps. "We established minimum controls," she told me, and the casinos have to meet those minimums and they can exceed them, "and then we say okay."

When I say illegal, I am specifically referring to an act that is unlawful according to the NRS definition of cheating, which is classed as a felony. Even though sliding is against casino rules and regulations, it's not a crime -- as evidenced by the fact that no criminal charges have been filed against the sliders even though they were caught on tape. It's not a criminal act unless specifically made unlawful by statute. This is what that looks like:

Quote: NRS 465.083

Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game. (emphasis mine)

First, the NRS defines "cheat". Then they make it unlawful.

So you're right -- the rules in Nevada aren't written down anywhere. The rules have evolved to include "hit the back wall" and, further in the past, use of the diamond rubber. The rules for the game have probably always excluded dice sliding, for obvious reasons. The codified New Jersey rules specifically allow either the stick or box to call "no roll" for reasons including both dice not hitting the back wall, the use of a cheating technique (which is not defined) and for any other reason they feel a roll is invalid.

But that doesn't make such a roll a criminal act. It just makes it a roll that may be invalidated by the casino staff. The burden is on the casino (in both NV and NJ) to protect the games they operate. If a dice mechanic successfully slides the dice and gets away with it -- that is, if the casino doesn't invalidate the roll -- then that's legally no different than the mechanic using a successful blanket roll or Greek shot and getting away with it. We can argue about the efficacy of the techniques (and indeed, one can precisely calculate the player advantage from using them) but there is no legal distinction between one biased-throwing technique and another. Based on the language in the NRS, either none of those techniques are criminal cheating, or all of them are.

And as I've pointed out previously, since the NRS treats cheating and attempted cheating the same way (see NRS 465.088(2) - both are felonies), if all biased-throwing techniques are illegal cheating, then everyone who even *attempts* to control the dice is also guilty of a felony in Nevada (including you, by your own admission). That would be an unconscionable result, so the only logical conclusion is that attempting to control the dice -- regardless of technique, and regardless of success -- is not a crime. I'm not saying sliding or any other controlled-shot technique won't get you tossed out of the casino, but that's a far cry from spending a year in jail as a Category B felon.

Edit:
See the Nevada Supreme Court decision in Hubert Skipper v. State of Nevada, which upheld Skipper's conviction on sliding as cheating, not because sliding itself is a criminal act, but because he used an accomplice to conceal his throws.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19941611879P2d732_11607.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006
Notably, from that decision:

Quote: Skipper v. State

We also concluded that gifted patrons who simply exploit their skills or play of the game (e.g., card counting or serendipitously observing the dealer's cards) in hopes of altering the usual criteria of play do not run afoul of the statute. 105 Nev. at 321, 775 P.2d at 221. We then held that handle popping, which neither damages nor mechanically alters a slot machine, and which is discoverable by an innocent novice, is within the latter category.

The Court goes on to take the view that a "dice slider" is one who seeks both to slide the dice and to conceal that fact from the casino, since the Court found that

Quote:

The evidence adduced at trial indicated that craps dealers are trained to call a "no roll" unless the dice are thrown in the manner described. Thus players who may accidently slide the dice simply have their play nullified by the dealer's call.

The Court did not specifically address the question of whether Skipper would have been guilty of cheating had he not hidden his slides from the casino using an accomplice, because that hypothetical did not occur, but that is precisely the issue at hand. From the NV Supreme Court's decision in Lyons:

Quote: Lyons v. State

If the State and the gaming industry desire to make handle popping or handle manipulation of slot machines a crime in Nevada, it will be necessary to do so in clearly expressed, specific statutory terms. Moreover, given the fact that innocent, well-intentioned patrons may so easily adopt various methods of handle manipulation in an attempt to change their fortune, it will be necessary to provide conspicuous notices on or about the machines to inform patrons which methods of handle pulling are lawful and which methods are felonious.

Substitute "dice throwing" for "handle pulling" or "handle popping" and you have the issue here. Controlled dice throwing, in any of its various forms, is not a crime without some additional factor like intentionally obscuring the view of the dealers.

Quote: Ahigh

As far as speed bumps here in Vegas, the Wynn has them, and one other place (I forgot) and that's it as far as I know. I don't remember the other place, but they are rare here in Vegas.

Sam's Town has them... or did... when I played there once about six or seven years ago. The speed bump is very obvious and actually lifts the felt to form a triangle.

Slightly OT: What is "handle popping"?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Slightly OT: What is "handle popping"?

Slamming the handle of an older mechanical reel spinning game to get the reels to stop prematurely. Read this:
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=1989994775P2d219_1993.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006

Quote: SOOPOO

I am not a 'math guy' anymore, but I'll bet any sum you want that 148 or fewer out of 1000 won't be acheived.
A 'math guy' here will probably say that 148 or lower would happen a few percent of the time by normal variance, but I'll take that chance.
The 15.9% would require too many rolls to be practical for me to get involved in, likely 10000 rolls...

SOOPOO, you would have won that bet on a percentage basis from my last 1633 rolls. I had 15.00% sevens.

I'll keep going and see if I can get to your 14.80 or lower ratio though. It's an interesting threshold to eyeball as I continue.

Quote: superrick

Nobody will ever prove that dice control works, because they never do a side by side analysis of a table full of dice controllers and a table full of the so-called random rollers. Everybody just gets lucky when we get on rolls. I've see where the DI's can't do anything right and the table that has nothing but random roller on it are cleaning up.

Here is a funny video if you want to see what the dice do when they hit the table.
http://goodshooter.com/ahigh/hardsix.mov

Aahigh has been trying to prove that he can control the dice, with all his videos, I give him credit for trying to do so, but his videos all show the dice bouncing all over the place. If that is control, what I was taught in school doesn't mean a thing. Just because the dice in up on a hardway doesn't prove a thing, when you are looking at a video that shows you how they ended up that way!
Take it for what its worth, I think one video, will tell you if someone is controlling the dice!

Here's the topic that relates to this video. This, I think, was the very first quicktime format video, and as I said when I posted this video in this thread on my forum:

Quote: Ahigh

So far, I have had so many throws in the casino where I felt it was a throw that dodged randomness, but when I play them back slowly on video, you can see between the bounces that randomness is still there.

http://forum.goodshooter.com/topic85.html

Rick has taken this video out of context as if I published this video as evidence of dice control and turned it into "all of Ahigh's video look like this video" and/or that I am trying to tell a story that this video is evidence of anything that looks like control.

I wanted to assure everyone that from the very beginning when publishing this video I clearly made no claims that there was an appearance of control. I am unhappy with how Rick chose to use this video as a sort of talking point to say that all of my videos lack evidence of control. I am unhappy about a lot of things that Rick has done lately, but I wanted to pick this one out specifically.

Quote: Ahigh

SOOPOO, you would have won that bet on a percentage basis from my last 1633 rolls. I had 15.00% sevens.

I'll keep going and see if I can get to your 14.80 or lower ratio though. It's an interesting threshold to eyeball as I continue.

I went back and looked at the first 1000 rolls or so, and I was at 15.10%. So yeah, I'm not taking that bet. It makes me wonder if you are looking for sucker bets! You know I get free bets from the casino already, right? And I generally don't even take those bets!

What if I said I bet you I can roll less than 17% sevens in 1000 rolls? Would you take that bet?

You need to be fair. I'm trying to be fair. All this is real actual data and I have not omitted anything because I am really working hard to do everything right.

But I don't want to take any sucker bets. I think 15% sevens is pretty damn good for that many rolls honestly. But you would want to take my money on a bet because it's not good enough? Wow.

As a Las Vegas craps dealer on the strip, I can tell you that tehcnique is complete BS. Pay attention to where the dice land each time you throw them. No one can even make the dice land in the same place. If you can't do this, how can you make them land on the same number? Us dealers just laugh at the setters. Its almost like believing there is an invisible man that controls your life and will reward you at the end of it if you are good.

Odds of throwing 150 or less 7s in 1,000 throws = 8.3689%

Quote: KtoLV

As a Las Vegas craps dealer on the strip, I can tell you that tehcnique is complete BS. Pay attention to where the dice land each time you throw them. No one can even make the dice land in the same place. If you can't do this, how can you make them land on the same number? Us dealers just laugh at the setters. Its almost like believing there is an invisible man that controls your life and will reward you at the end of it if you are good.

I believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too!

Quote: KtoLV

As a Las Vegas craps dealer on the strip, I can tell you that tehcnique is complete BS. Pay attention to where the dice land each time you throw them. No one can even make the dice land in the same place. If you can't do this, how can you make them land on the same number? Us dealers just laugh at the setters. Its almost like believing there is an invisible man that controls your life and will reward you at the end of it if you are good.

Interesting post. PM me your real name (mine is Aaron Hightower) and where you deal and on what shift. I'm more than happy to get your feedback on my shot when we can have an empty table. Feel free to say whatever you want about me and/or my shot on the forum afterwards.

I can handle being laughed at if that is the result!

But I'm more than willing to subject myself to your expert perspective on how I got no technique.

Quote: KtoLV

As a Las Vegas craps dealer on the strip, I can tell you that tehcnique is complete BS. Pay attention to where the dice land each time you throw them. No one can even make the dice land in the same place. If you can't do this, how can you make them land on the same number? Us dealers just laugh at the setters. Its almost like believing there is an invisible man that controls your life and will reward you at the end of it if you are good.

Interestimg post! I would bet a majority of Americans believe the latter, and a majority have never even thought of the former!

I need help, math guys! earlier in this thread Ahigh listed his 7's percentage at 15%.
Assumption 1- come out roll for $5 with random toss.
Assumption 2- set dice for all points 7 averse, with 15% 7's and other numbers proportionally distributed according to their expected relative frequencies.
$100 odds on all points
Come bet as well for $5 .... understanding that it will be slightly more -EV than initial pass line due to lower likelihood of 7
Same $100 odds on come bets.
1 roll per minute 8 hour session. Expected +EV? Thanks!!!!!!

My guess is that the +EV will exceed $1000 for the day's work.

I've done this.

The HA on the comeout is 1.414% for a normal 7s distribution.
The HA on the comeout for the 15% distribution is as follows:

On comeout:

11.111% Player advantage for win of $.5555555 (on $5)

Now, if the point is 4/10 (6/24), instead of a house advantage of -.13888, you have a player advantage of 3/36*(205*(.085/(.085+.15)-105*(.15/(.085+.15) = $.593972. It would take (1/(.085+.15) = 4.25532 rolls to resolve the point.

If the point is 5/9 (8/24), instead of a house advantage of -.11111, you have a player advantage of 4/36*(155*(.1133333/(.113333+.15)-105*(.15/(.11333 + .15) = $.766526. It takes 3.79747 rolls to resolve the point.

If the point is 6/8 (10/24), instead of a house advantage of -.06313, you have a player advantage of 4/36*(125*(.141667/(.141667+.15)-105*(.15/(.141667 + .15) = $.93524. It takes 3.42857 rolls to resolve the point.

Total player advantage on the P/L with the scheme is $5.14163 per point resolved, and it takes 2.838816 rolls to resolve the pass line on average.

480 rolls = 169 pass lines = $869 player profit.

By the way, a RSR of .15 on non come out rolls yields a massive win. There are 311 non pass line rolls and therefore there are about 46 7 outs. In an 8 hour session, you have a discrete (integer number of 7s).

A difference of 1 7 on non come out rolls changes the RSR by about 1/3rd of a percent. For example for a normal distribution you would expect 177 come out rolls.

So if there are 48 seven-outs instead of 47, your RSR ratio goes up to .155844 and your profit is $558.86.
If there are 49 seven-outs, your RSR ration goes up to .160131 and your profit is $331.26
If there are 50, RSR goes up to .164474 and your profit is a scant $102.855

So, variance is a bitch.

My analysis shows that even with an RSR of .15, you'll still seven out (50.5 times or more in 303 pass lines) more than 20% of the time.

Quote: KtoLV

As a Las Vegas craps dealer on the strip, I can tell you that tehcnique is complete BS.

Haven't heard back from the one-post-wonder yet.

Teddy and I have been going out to play pretty regularly.

I don't have a bankroll to play much, but I'm enjoying throwing the bones in public and having fun, and still have a dollar or two to throw them.

I'm absolutely curious for any observers of my throwing ability in public to make comments, including Teddy.

I think Teddy has seen more of my shot than anyone, but still nobody on this forum really has enough samples of my throw in the casino to make any generalizations.

As far as this particular dealer's generalizations, they may hold true for those he has observed and still not hold water for me personally.

But I'm willing to subject myself, and I haven't heard back yet for who this person is.

I think like anyone else, dealers are more subject to emotion and selective memory to truly be objective over a large enough set of samples from a single individual.