Hedging Pass/Don't Pass with partner

I tried googling this but didn't find any examples of people doing it. If essentially you doubled your usual bankroll, showed up to a craps table with a partner (giving them half of the new total bankroll to play with), hedged your pass/don't pass bets with them (essentially eliminating the pass/don't pass), then switched around who played odds...would you consider that playing with 0 house edge ? (Again...counting the starting bankroll as one between the two of you) I'm sure it would be frowned upon by the casino if found out you were intentionally playing as a team. It also seems like if you rotated playing max odds on pass for 6&8 and max odds on don't pass for 4&10, then alternated between the 5&9 as to who played odds, that would increase the number of times the odds bets hit. Am I missing something here? My wife bet darkside once as a joke while I was betting pass + odds. It was also was just the two of us at the table. The crew working the table just seemed to laugh it off since she kept saying she was intentionally betting against me to mess with me, however...I started to realize I was "Technically" only wagering the odds since our pass/don't pass bets off set and we shared the same bankroll.

You’re forgetting about the come out 12. Pass line loses and don’t pass pushes.

One of the Wizard’s Ten Commandments is, “7. Thou shall not hedge thy bets.”

It’s on his list for a reason. A GOOD reason.

https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/ten-commandments/

You can find several lengthy discussions of exactly your question here on this website. Search in the craps section of the forum archives.

Ultimately the discussions can be distilled to the following: All Odds bets already are mathematically neutral. Bets on Pass or Come are imperfectly countered by bets on Don't Pass or Don't Come because initial rolls of Twelve are not treated as mirror opposites. Ultimately the overall House Advantage is tiny but still not zero.

Quote: RollThePoint

I tried googling this but didn't find any examples of people doing it. If essentially you doubled your usual bankroll, showed up to a craps table with a partner (giving them half of the new total bankroll to play with), hedged your pass/don't pass bets with them (essentially eliminating the pass/don't pass), then switched around who played odds...would you consider that playing with 0 house edge ? (Again...counting the starting bankroll as one between the two of you) I'm sure it would be frowned upon by the casino if found out you were intentionally playing as a team. It also seems like if you rotated playing max odds on pass for 6&8 and max odds on don't pass for 4&10, then alternated between the 5&9 as to who played odds, that would increase the number of times the odds bets hit. Am I missing something here? My wife bet darkside once as a joke while I was betting pass + odds. It was also was just the two of us at the table. The crew working the table just seemed to laugh it off since she kept saying she was intentionally betting against me to message with me, however...I started to realize I was "Technically" only wagering the odds since our pass/don't pass bets off set and we shared the same bankroll.
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As you note, you need twice the bankroll. The reason obviously is that you are betting twice as much! Each bet is against a house edge. One rule you should internalize and count on is that no combination of bets that have a house edge against them can result in favor of the player, or eliminate the house edge at all. Even in this instance, yes, the bets seem to cancel each other, but , no , they do not.

What is eliminated is up and down swings ... much discussion on why APs go to that sometimes to cash out freeplay... the Casinos like to foil them. But this is a different matter.

Quote: RollThePoint

Am I missing something here?
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So... they take the losing chips from the pass, and use them to pay the winning don't.

Hedging doesn't keep you from losing. Hedging makes it impossible to win.

I'm sure the technical explanations offered cover all the reasons why.

Quote: RollThePoint

...The crew working the table just seemed to laugh it off since she kept saying she was intentionally betting against me to message with me, however...I started to realize I was "Technically" only wagering the odds since our pass/don't pass bets off set and we shared the same bankroll.
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btw don't ever admit you are doing this as a team, the pit boss may decide to give you no comps, and here you are betting twice as much and, on average, losing twice as much, on one bankroll. The casino employees can be very funny about these things, sometimes because they too don't understand the math.

I got the answer. The 12 on don't pass pushes and loses on pass.

Yes totally forgot about that. I think I only had a 12 rolled once in my life when playing don't pass (which I rarely do). Thanks. I am assuming this does not even lower the house edge in anyway.

What about the don't pass player only betting max odds on 4&10 and pass only betting max odds on 6&8 if they were still playing as a team? 5&9 odds would be even for both players or no bets. Would that increase or decrease any probability? I'm curious what that would do...

Quote: RollThePoint

Yes totally forgot about that. I think I only had a 12 rolled once in my life when playing don't pass (which I rarely do). Thanks. I am assuming this does not even lower the house edge in anyway.

What about the don't pass player only betting max odds on 4&10 and pass only betting max odds on 6&8 if they were still playing as a team? 5&9 odds would be even for both players or no bets. Would that increase or decrease any probability? I'm curious what that would do...
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Same answer...no change in house edge. Odds bets, no matter what amount, are zero house edge. To get to the odds bets, the doey/don't player pair will still need to face a possibility of a twelve.

I have to wonder if it's easier to win 10 PL odds bets ahead or to win 14 DP odds bets ahead.

If I'm betting $10 PL with $30, $40, $50 odds, each point won will be $70, so 10 wins would be $700.
If I'm betting $10 DP with $60 odds, the average win will be $50, so 14 wins would be $700.

The entirety of crap's house edge comes from the push on 12.

That's not counting all the sucker bets, of course.

Are you hedging for comps or something? They don't count odds for comps

Quote: ChumpChange

I have to wonder if it's easier to win 10 PL odds bets ahead or to win 14 DP odds bets ahead.

If I'm betting $10 PL with $30, $40, $50 odds, each point won will be $70, so 10 wins would be $700.
If I'm betting $10 DP with $60 odds, the average win will be $50, so 14 wins would be $700.
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If I am understanding you correctly, almost certainly it's the Don't Pass one.

Every time I try running a simulation, I get to 14 more DP odds bet wins than losses about once every 112 comeouts - but I never get to 10 more Pass Line odds bet wins than losses as the number of losses minus the number of wins just keeps growing. This makes sense when you realize the probability of winning a DP odds bet once a point is established > 1/2, while the probability of winning a PL odds bet once a point is established < 1/2.

I kind of figure if there's a few hot shooters without a string of point 7-outs, they could rack up 10 PL odds wins ahead, but I may be dying of hopium here.

I woke up thinking about a set of 100 point decisions where 40 of them were winners and 60 were losers, like if all points were 5 & 9's.
If 40 PL points win $70 for $2800 and 60 PL points lose $50 for $3000, that'd be a $200 loss that could be made up some by come-out rolls to close that $200 gap.
If it was 50 points won & 50 points lost, that'd be $3500 won and $2500 lost or a $1000 win plus whatever the come-out roll advantage is.

If betting the DP, trying to get 14 wins ahead, that'd be 67 DP odds wins times $50 for $3350 and 33 DP odds losses for $2310 for a net win of $1040 before counting the come-out losses.

If betting the DP and it comes to a 50-50 split, that'd be $2500 in wins and $3500 in losses for a $1000 loss and extra loss from come-out rolls.
If betting the PL and it comes to a 33-67 split, that'd be $2310 in wins and $3350 in losses for a $1040 loss with extra wins from the come-out rolls.
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Scroll that out to a set of 1000 point decisions where 400 of them were winners and 600 were losers.
If 400 PL points win $70 for $28K and 600 PL points lose for $30K, that'd be a $2K loss that could be made up by come-out rolls to close that $2K gap.
If it was a 500-500 split, the PL bet would win $35K and lose $25K for a net win of $10K.
If it was a 333-667 split, the PL bet would win $23,310 and lose $33,350 for a $10,040 net loss with extra wins on come-out rolls.

If it was a 500-500 split, the DP bet would win $25K and lose $35K for a net loss of $10K before adding extra losses for come-out rolls.
If it was a 333-667 split, the DP bet would win $33,350 and lose $23,310 for a net win of $10,040 before counting the come-out losses.

But I've got to figure that the results will be dead even at 400-600 with not much deviation.

Something not mentioned in this thread is that, if you want to cash in match play, promo chips, or free play on a craps table or machine, with minimum variance a pass / don't pass hedge can make sense. It can also make sense in the unlikely event that comps, points or the like are sufficient to overcome the losses from comeout 12's.

But, as others mentioned, if you are just playing the game with cash, all it does is eliminates any chance of winning, as every comeout 12 costs you one bet.