I understand the odds of hitting a 6 or 8 are 5/36ea so I'm at 10/36 vs catching a 7 6/36

Yes, it’s standard that they’re off on a come out roll. Since you could take them off at will, and people generally root for a seven coming out, they’ll automatically make them off rather then you having to turn them off or take them down. That’s why the puck says ‘off’ on come outs.

You have to request them to be on if that’s your choice.

Your prior experience may have been with dealers that picked up on your style to keep them on every time.

Note that odds on don’t come bets stay on regardless since they would pay on a come out seven.

they'll be astonished at your good manners and remember you, ha ha. You can train that dealer, but I would always say it. They change dealers all the time of course

Thank you

True Odds bets always require predicate Flat Bets. Place bets differ from Odds bets in that they have no predicates and also dissimilar payouts.

Odds bets on Come Points as well as Place bets are not at risk by default during Pass Line Comeouts. They "Follow the Puck." Individual players may override that default status for their own bets by so informing the dealer, who will use small "lammers" to clarify the overrides for the cameras.

Each dealer encountered will require clarity and often repeated requests and reminders regarding the preferences of an individual player who wants to depart from the default rule.

I'll also turn off my bets -- even odds -- after a roll goes too long because I've rarely experienced a roll going longer than fifteen minutes.

Only twice in my life have I been at a table when a roll went longer than one hour. One roll was 61 minutes and one was 75 minutes.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.

Just to confirm: you put chips on the table but they are never on? I didn’t realize that was allowed.Quote:AlanMendelsonMy bets are always off because 1/6 times I'll lose them and that's too big of a risk.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.

The probability that the next roll is a seven is always 1/6. Or does that probability vary with the time shown on your watch ?

Quote:Ace2Just to confirm: you put chips on the table but they are never on? I didn’t realize that was allowed.Quote:AlanMendelsonMy bets are always off because 1/6 times I'll lose them and that's too big of a risk.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.

The probability that the next roll is a seven is always 1/6. Or does that probability vary with the time shown on your watch ?

link to original post

It would be a better forum if people weren't always picking on someone. So Alan is a somewhat superstitious player, so what? Why do you have to harsh his buzz? I had a SevenStars next to me once at a craps table, great conversationalist, but the biggest bundle of neuroses and superstitions I've ever seen. Drink girl walks by, he has to spin 360 clockwise before he'd shoot. Stuff like that. Entertaining? Yup. Did I have to tell him it was all bunk? I could have, but why spoil his time? Same goes here.

Alan does raise an intriguing point, however: while the math says 1/6 for crapping out on any particular roll (except come-outs), what does the graph of roll length vs probability say?. Given that all rolls must end, and the longest one is 154 rolls, is the chance for a roll ending ever greater than 1/6? Youse guys with those billion-roll simulators, give it a whirl and let us know!

I know that if someone's been shooting for an hour, I'd be pressed to the table limit, then coining money hand over fist. Sure, when he craps out, I'll lose those table-max bets, but looking at the yellows in my rack will console me. Calling my bets off the roll before he craps out would be icing on the cake.

Not sure if you’re joking, trolling or bothQuote:BillHasRetired

Alan does raise an intriguing point, however: while the math says 1/6 for crapping out on any particular roll (except come-outs), what does the graph of roll length vs probability say?. Given that all rolls must end, and the longest one is 154 rolls, is the chance for a roll ending ever greater than 1/6? Youse guys with those billion-roll simulators, give it a whirl and let us know!

Btw you seven-out, not “crap-out”

Since my progression is built for more hits, I'd leave my bets up.

I leave my PB's off during come-out rolls because I don't want to restart my progression during one shooter's turn, but other reasons include shooters throwing 5 or 6 times before establishing a point like it was a separate section of the game.

I don't always press every time I hit a bet but after a few start to...

From my understanding:

Place bets after a point is established pay the same as odds bets. The pass line bet pays even. I play the 6&8 for $30ea. Odds of me hitting a 6 or 8 any given roll are 10/36. Odds of a 7out are 1/6. When I hit one - I win $35 and the house likes me betting in multiples of 30 to make payouts easier. If I press, I abide to make it easier for them to pay taking back $5.

Lets say the point is a 5. The 5 hits, pays out, and the puck is off. I sometimes feel leaving the 6&8 on for the come out roll

(10/36 to win $35) is better than turning them off risking (1/6) basically $30x2. I do this based on the feel and table chemistry

of the shooter.

If I have my place bets off and a 6 comes in I miss out on 35 or by progression a lot more. I've seen the 6 or 8 go on runs and come in 6+ times before a 7out.

If the past doesn't matter, and the future is random, then nothing becomes more likely or less likely to roll.

Last time I played Craps I was making Come bets only, and it wasn't going well. This might have bothered someone playing with me who said after one loss, "seems like you got your odds down just in time for him to 7-out' ... and it did seem like that. I nearly got defensive and came close to saying " if the past doesn't matter, and the future is random, then it can't matter when you place your bet. " but I didn't. In fact I was agreeing with him, sure seemed like I was playing in a dumb way, I was losing my arse. If there was any justice to the game of Craps, I'd have started to win, to show the truth of that. But I was committed to playing Come bets only and the dice, with their sense of cruel irony, continued to wallop me.

Quote:wizardofbuffaloAlan - I get that 1/6 you lose on come outs. But if you have the 6&8 - 10/36 a win with odds making it basically even. Why do you consider a 1/6 risk being scarier with a 10/36 payout...?

link to original post

We're talking about two different things.

The seven appears 1/6 times on two rolled dice.

Each time the dice roll I have 1/6 chance of losing my bets.

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

Of course if you're a DI and you believe you can avoid the 7 it is in your best interests to keep your bets working.

So... to summarize... those of you who keep bets working on the come out must be DIs.

Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:wizardofbuffaloAlan - I get that 1/6 you lose on come outs. But if you have the 6&8 - 10/36 a win with odds making it basically even. Why do you consider a 1/6 risk being scarier with a 10/36 payout...?

link to original post

We're talking about two different things.

The seven appears 1/6 times on two rolled dice.

Each time the dice roll I have 1/6 chance of losing my bets.

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

Of course if you're a DI and you believe you can avoid the 7 it is in your best interests to keep your bets working.

So... to summarize... those of you who keep bets working on the come out must be DIs.

link to original post

Or they understand that what people root for on a roll has no effect on the roll.

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

(BTW, I am inconsistent, I sometimes leave mine on and sometimes turn mine off.)

The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.Quote:AlanMendelson

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

]

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?

Come betting with odds and leaving your bets working is like being blinded by the math.

Now I'll explain.

Yes, the dice have no memory.

Yes, there's no house edge on the odds.

Yes, the dice can't tell the difference between a come out throw or a throw after a point is established.

But when bets are on they can lose. And unless you have an unlimited bankroll OR you can truly influence the dice to avoid 7s why not limit your exposure to losing?

I really am a recreational player. My joy is being at the table for the longest period of time with the smallest possible exposure.

The rest of you -- making come bets, piling on odds, having bets working all the time, must have some ability to predict the future that I don't have.

Okay I've said it. I'm sure it hit the fan. So let your replies fly.

Quote:Ace2The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.Quote:AlanMendelson

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

]

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?

link to original post

I generally sit out dont players when they shoot.

majority of other people losing at the table are cheering...

Quote:unJonHere’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJonHere’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

It’s really not gobbledygook. And there’s no blinding by the math.

I thought your last post was right on. You want to bet with what the table or rooting for and enjoy the experience at min cost. Makes total sense.

Then you make a post of trash like above. Maybe because you thought “it was going to hit fan.” Lol. I have no problem with how you play. I sometimes don’t work for superstitious reasons or because I don’t want to not root for a 7 winner.

I could also randomly turn off my odds every now and then irrespective of whether it’s a come out or not. Maybe because the dice flew off the table. It’s all the same thing.

It feels really enjoyable to leave your odds working and get paid when the point is established. It pisses me off when my odds are off and they come down because the point was established. It feels like I lost a bet.

Let say I take place odds bets on the 4,6,8,10. If its a come out roll, you would turn off a 16/36 (a 44.444% chance of winning) against the 1/6 risk. Just because every one else is cheering for a 7 on the come out roll???

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJonHere’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

Craps is a negative expectation game. The more you bet the more you'll lose.

Bet less, play longer.

Why do you sit out?Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:Ace2The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.Quote:AlanMendelson

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

]

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?

link to original post

I generally sit out dont players when they shoot.

link to original post

Quote:Ace2Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

link to original post

There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)

Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:Ace2Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

link to original post

There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)

link to original post

I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?

Quote:unJonQuote:AlanMendelsonQuote:Ace2Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

link to original post

There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)

link to original post

I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?

link to original post

Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?

Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJonQuote:AlanMendelsonQuote:Ace2Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

link to original post

There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)

link to original post

I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?

link to original post

Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?

link to original post

I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.

Quote:unJon

I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.

link to original post

They are not comparable. Your come bet with odds on the 8 must be rolled a second time for you to collect anything.

Of course if you're a DI you can do that.

Gotta be the silliest statement that misguided players often make. There was no “first time” that the come bettor rolled for an 8 so how can there be a “second time”? Before any point was established for the come bet, the come bettor was reaping a 33% advantage over the casinoQuote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.

link to original post

They are not comparable. Your come bet with odds on the 8 must be rolled a second time for you to collect anything.

link to original post

Are you actually being serious?Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:Ace2Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:unJon

link to original post

This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.

link to original post

link to original post

There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)

link to original post

Of course you will lose odds bets sometimes (most of the time as a right side bettor) but, over the long term, you will win/lose nothing. It’s just fun variance around a break-even long-term result, so why turn them off ever ?

The difference is that, for the same amount of fun, you are paying about 600% more house edge (relative) with a place bet than with a come bet plus 5x odds (what kind of fool would bet 2x free odds when he can bet 5x ???).Quote:AlanMendelson[

Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?

link to original post

Apples to apples: with a $60 place bet on 8 you’re paying 1.66% vig on the entire amount. The come bettor is paying 1.41% on his $10 flat bet and nothing on his $50 odds bet., Saving so much that he can afford to leave his odds bets on during comeout

That’s for the 6/8. Placing the other numbers is much more disastrous compared to come bets plus odds

Quote:Ace2

Of course you will lose odds bets sometimes (most of the time as a right side bettor) but, over the long term, you will win/lose nothing. It’s just fun variance around a break-even long-term result, so why turn them off ever ?

link to original post

Wow.

From what I read, you are primarily a place bettor, which means you freely choose to pay about 10x the house edge of a pass/come bet with 3-4-5 odds. 4% vs 0.37%. Yet you chastise someone for leaving their bets on during comeout, which will increase their betting action by about 8.5/6 - 1 = 42%. Has nothing to do with hot shooters or what the shooter wants to roll.Quote:AlanMendelsonI

But when bets are on they can lose. And unless you have an unlimited bankroll OR you can truly influence the dice to avoid 7s why not limit your exposure to losing?

I really am a recreational player. My joy is being at the table for the longest period of time with the smallest possible exposure.

The rest of you -- making come bets, piling on odds, having bets working all the time, must have some ability to predict the future that I don't have.

]

You’re good with a 981% increase but 42% is way too much. Make any sense ?

I will be playing 25 on the pass line. Once a point is established I will place odds on the 6 and 8 at 30ea. I will tell them to keep my bets working. If a point is established and made, I will win 25 for my pass line bet but leave the numbers bets on risking $60 on the next come out roll. If the next come out roll is a 7out, I'm only losing the 60 in numbers bets but will win the pass line 25. So technically I'm only down 35 vs maybe making 35 if the new point happens to be a 6 or 8. That seems pretty EV to me.

Thanks to all for the input. I'll keep ya posted. Or maybe this is too confusing and I should stick to house money or pair square.

If you're happy playing your way then please continue.

But I don't know which number will be thrown next. So I'm going to make the smallest bets and hope that the roll will continue.

I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.

Once again, I have to ask: Are you sure you understand what “free bet” means?Quote:AlanMendelson

I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.

link to original post

It does not mean that you win it every time. That would be free money

“Repeater” lol

Quote:Ace2Once again, I have to ask: Are you sure you understand what “free bet” means?Quote:AlanMendelson

I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.

link to original post

It does not mean that you win it every time. That would be free money

“Repeater” lol

link to original post

I've written several times the correct definition of the odds bet being free -- meaning that they are paid without a house edge.

I never said the odds were a free bet or free money or free anything.

Calling odds "free" is a misnomer.

Odds bets are real money. And they lose on a 7, whether a winner-7 on a come out or a 7-out which ends a roll.

Good luck with your play.

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.

Leaving bets working when the puck is off and was asking for opinions about that. I've seen repeater 6 or 8s happen a bunch recently and if the bets are left working, they pay. If the bets are off they don't pay. I'll learn by experiences not by starting people bickering about the correct way to play based on their styles and idiocracies...

Quote:WigginsWhy does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.

link to original post

You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.

Quote:AlanMendelsonQuote:WigginsWhy does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.

link to original post

You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.

link to original post

Proof:

https://wizardofvegas.com/member/alanmendelson/posts/

This website was started by the Wizard of ODDS. People read these forums because they are drawn to the mathematical side of gambling. The house edge of all the different craps bets are on his page. He recommends leaving odds working on the come-out because it reduces overall house edge. If you prefer to use a less mathematically optimal method at craps, that's fine. Play your money however you like. But why do you insist on always stirring the pot? The math stuff isn't debatable.

If anything, you owe the rest of the forum an apology for derailing every craps thread.

Quote:WigginsQuote:AlanMendelsonQuote:WigginsWhy does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.

link to original post

You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.

link to original post

Proof:

https://wizardofvegas.com/member/alanmendelson/posts/

This website was started by the Wizard of ODDS. People read these forums because they are drawn to the mathematical side of gambling. The house edge of all the different craps bets are on his page. He recommends leaving odds working on the come-out because it reduces overall house edge. If you prefer to use a less mathematically optimal method at craps, that's fine. Play your money however you like. But why do you insist on always stirring the pot? The math stuff isn't debatable.

If anything, you owe the rest of the forum an apology for derailing every craps thread.

link to original post

I challenge your definition of proof. But I'll make it easy on you: Point out just one error I made in the mathematics of craps. Just one.

and less time fighting with other people who use different wizard tools and have different wizard beliefs. I'll try my chances at the casino...

PS: $25 odds on the 6 or 8 pays $30, and $30 odds pays $36. Odds bets are in multiples of $5, except on Bubble Craps.

$30 PB 6 or 8 pays $35. PB 6 or 8's are bet in multiples of $6, except on Bubble Craps.