wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 27th, 2022 at 4:11:16 PM permalink
Last time I was at the casino, the dealer did not leave my odds bets working. Some previous times with other dealers, they were leaving them working for me. Do I specifically have to tell them to leave my odds bets (lets say 6&8) working for this to happen? I was putting odds on the 6&8 after the pass line point was established. Numerous times I had odds on the 6&8 but when the point was off, and 6 or 8 was rolled to set the new point - they did not pay out. Many times the new point came up a 6 or 8 but my bets up there would not pay. I think I was losing money by not leaving them working this time. What is the player advantage to leaving them working vs not working? I understand if I leave them working and a 7 is rolled on the come out roll while the point is off - obviously I lose both odds bets. Any advice ???

I understand the odds of hitting a 6 or 8 are 5/36ea so I'm at 10/36 vs catching a 7 6/36
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10987
August 27th, 2022 at 6:32:22 PM permalink
I assume you’re talking about the odds on come bets.

Yes, it’s standard that they’re off on a come out roll. Since you could take them off at will, and people generally root for a seven coming out, they’ll automatically make them off rather then you having to turn them off or take them down. That’s why the puck says ‘off’ on come outs.

You have to request them to be on if that’s your choice.

Your prior experience may have been with dealers that picked up on your style to keep them on every time.

Note that odds on don’t come bets stay on regardless since they would pay on a come out seven.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 27th, 2022 at 7:03:25 PM permalink
Thanks DJ. I think that is exactly what happened and I will elect to leave them on next time I play. Some dealers knew I was playing them anyways and left them on. The last one didn't and I didn't last as long. But we never know for sure. Its craps !!!
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9516
August 28th, 2022 at 4:14:00 AM permalink
when you give the dealer the money for the free odds, say "always working, please"

they'll be astonished at your good manners and remember you, ha ha. You can train that dealer, but I would always say it. They change dealers all the time of course
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 5:21:15 AM permalink
Sounds good but they remember me anyways. It's a small place. Not like up at the Falls where they have 5 or 6 different areas with table games and craps. They usually only have one craps table going. Maybe 2 and only three tables with BJ/Spanish21. I get pissed off they don't have more shoe games of blackjack. I get they use the automatic shufflers to get more hands per hour but I prefer the shoe games but those are usually 50min though. So I'm dabbling with Craps when the 15 and 25 BJ tables are full. Did great when I kept them 'always working'', other times not so well...

Thank you
pwcrabb
pwcrabb
Joined: May 15, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 185
August 28th, 2022 at 9:52:40 AM permalink
WizardofBuffalo is asking about making Place Bets on 6 and 8 and having those bets continue to be at risk during Pass Line Coneouts. He has misnamed those bets as Odds, which is a very common error. He stated that he made those bets after a Pass Point had been established. That timing clarifies their nature.

True Odds bets always require predicate Flat Bets. Place bets differ from Odds bets in that they have no predicates and also dissimilar payouts.

Odds bets on Come Points as well as Place bets are not at risk by default during Pass Line Comeouts. They "Follow the Puck." Individual players may override that default status for their own bets by so informing the dealer, who will use small "lammers" to clarify the overrides for the cameras.

Each dealer encountered will require clarity and often repeated requests and reminders regarding the preferences of an individual player who wants to depart from the default rule.
Last edited by: pwcrabb on Aug 28, 2022
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
pwcrabb
pwcrabb
Joined: May 15, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 185
August 28th, 2022 at 11:09:03 AM permalink
Exposing Place Bets and True Odds bets to risk during Pass Line Comeout rolls has obvious and dramatic consequences in the short term. Over many decisions however the mathematical distinction from a policy of following the Puck is tiny.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 11:25:10 AM permalink
My bets are always off because 1/6 times I'll lose them and that's too big of a risk.

I'll also turn off my bets -- even odds -- after a roll goes too long because I've rarely experienced a roll going longer than fifteen minutes.

Only twice in my life have I been at a table when a roll went longer than one hour. One roll was 61 minutes and one was 75 minutes.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 12:45:15 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

My bets are always off because 1/6 times I'll lose them and that's too big of a risk.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.

Just to confirm: you put chips on the table but they are never on? I didn’t realize that was allowed.

The probability that the next roll is a seven is always 1/6. Or does that probability vary with the time shown on your watch ?
Last edited by: Ace2 on Aug 28, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
BillHasRetired
BillHasRetired
Joined: May 7, 2022
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 212
Thanks for this post from:
camapl
August 28th, 2022 at 3:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

My bets are always off because 1/6 times I'll lose them and that's too big of a risk.

I have a habit of checking my watch on every shooter.

Just to confirm: you put chips on the table but they are never on? I didn’t realize that was allowed.

The probability that the next roll is a seven is always 1/6. Or does that probability vary with the time shown on your watch ?
link to original post


It would be a better forum if people weren't always picking on someone. So Alan is a somewhat superstitious player, so what? Why do you have to harsh his buzz? I had a SevenStars next to me once at a craps table, great conversationalist, but the biggest bundle of neuroses and superstitions I've ever seen. Drink girl walks by, he has to spin 360 clockwise before he'd shoot. Stuff like that. Entertaining? Yup. Did I have to tell him it was all bunk? I could have, but why spoil his time? Same goes here.

Alan does raise an intriguing point, however: while the math says 1/6 for crapping out on any particular roll (except come-outs), what does the graph of roll length vs probability say?. Given that all rolls must end, and the longest one is 154 rolls, is the chance for a roll ending ever greater than 1/6? Youse guys with those billion-roll simulators, give it a whirl and let us know!

I know that if someone's been shooting for an hour, I'd be pressed to the table limit, then coining money hand over fist. Sure, when he craps out, I'll lose those table-max bets, but looking at the yellows in my rack will console me. Calling my bets off the roll before he craps out would be icing on the cake.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 4:02:06 PM permalink
Quote: BillHasRetired


Alan does raise an intriguing point, however: while the math says 1/6 for crapping out on any particular roll (except come-outs), what does the graph of roll length vs probability say?. Given that all rolls must end, and the longest one is 154 rolls, is the chance for a roll ending ever greater than 1/6? Youse guys with those billion-roll simulators, give it a whirl and let us know!

Not sure if you’re joking, trolling or both

Btw you seven-out, not “crap-out”
It’s all about making that GTA
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 5:03:58 PM permalink
Alan - I get that 1/6 you lose on come outs. But if you have the 6&8 - 10/36 a win with odds making it basically even. Why do you consider a 1/6 risk being scarier with a 10/36 payout...?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 109
  • Posts: 4670
August 28th, 2022 at 5:07:18 PM permalink
If I'm pressing my PB 6 & 8 bets and it's been 20+ rolls and my bets are a bit high, should I take my bets down or hope for a few more hits?
Since my progression is built for more hits, I'd leave my bets up.
I leave my PB's off during come-out rolls because I don't want to restart my progression during one shooter's turn, but other reasons include shooters throwing 5 or 6 times before establishing a point like it was a separate section of the game.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Aug 28, 2022
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 5:33:03 PM permalink
This is my confusion. U say: 'Since my progression is built for more hits, I'd leave my bets up.'
I don't always press every time I hit a bet but after a few start to...

From my understanding:
Place bets after a point is established pay the same as odds bets. The pass line bet pays even. I play the 6&8 for $30ea. Odds of me hitting a 6 or 8 any given roll are 10/36. Odds of a 7out are 1/6. When I hit one - I win $35 and the house likes me betting in multiples of 30 to make payouts easier. If I press, I abide to make it easier for them to pay taking back $5.

Lets say the point is a 5. The 5 hits, pays out, and the puck is off. I sometimes feel leaving the 6&8 on for the come out roll
(10/36 to win $35) is better than turning them off risking (1/6) basically $30x2. I do this based on the feel and table chemistry
of the shooter.

If I have my place bets off and a 6 comes in I miss out on 35 or by progression a lot more. I've seen the 6 or 8 go on runs and come in 6+ times before a 7out.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9516
August 28th, 2022 at 6:19:08 PM permalink
As far as a shooter having a long time with the dice, it does make it seem the 7-out is getting to me more and more imminent. It can only go so long, right? But the fact of the matter is, the chances of rolling are the same at all times with random rolling.

If the past doesn't matter, and the future is random, then nothing becomes more likely or less likely to roll.

Last time I played Craps I was making Come bets only, and it wasn't going well. This might have bothered someone playing with me who said after one loss, "seems like you got your odds down just in time for him to 7-out' ... and it did seem like that. I nearly got defensive and came close to saying " if the past doesn't matter, and the future is random, then it can't matter when you place your bet. " but I didn't. In fact I was agreeing with him, sure seemed like I was playing in a dumb way, I was losing my arse. If there was any justice to the game of Craps, I'd have started to win, to show the truth of that. But I was committed to playing Come bets only and the dice, with their sense of cruel irony, continued to wallop me.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 6:20:05 PM permalink
Quote: wizardofbuffalo

Alan - I get that 1/6 you lose on come outs. But if you have the 6&8 - 10/36 a win with odds making it basically even. Why do you consider a 1/6 risk being scarier with a 10/36 payout...?
link to original post



We're talking about two different things.

The seven appears 1/6 times on two rolled dice.
Each time the dice roll I have 1/6 chance of losing my bets.

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

Of course if you're a DI and you believe you can avoid the 7 it is in your best interests to keep your bets working.

So... to summarize... those of you who keep bets working on the come out must be DIs.
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4537
Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
August 28th, 2022 at 6:33:37 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: wizardofbuffalo

Alan - I get that 1/6 you lose on come outs. But if you have the 6&8 - 10/36 a win with odds making it basically even. Why do you consider a 1/6 risk being scarier with a 10/36 payout...?
link to original post



We're talking about two different things.

The seven appears 1/6 times on two rolled dice.
Each time the dice roll I have 1/6 chance of losing my bets.

Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?

Of course if you're a DI and you believe you can avoid the 7 it is in your best interests to keep your bets working.

So... to summarize... those of you who keep bets working on the come out must be DIs.
link to original post



Or they understand that what people root for on a roll has no effect on the roll.

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

(BTW, I am inconsistent, I sometimes leave mine on and sometimes turn mine off.)
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 6:36:28 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson



Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?
]

The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 6:39:47 PM permalink
I am sure that what I am about to write is akin to everything hitting the fan, but here goes:

Come betting with odds and leaving your bets working is like being blinded by the math.

Now I'll explain.

Yes, the dice have no memory.
Yes, there's no house edge on the odds.
Yes, the dice can't tell the difference between a come out throw or a throw after a point is established.

But when bets are on they can lose. And unless you have an unlimited bankroll OR you can truly influence the dice to avoid 7s why not limit your exposure to losing?

I really am a recreational player. My joy is being at the table for the longest period of time with the smallest possible exposure.

The rest of you -- making come bets, piling on odds, having bets working all the time, must have some ability to predict the future that I don't have.

Okay I've said it. I'm sure it hit the fan. So let your replies fly.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 6:40:35 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson



Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?
]

The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?
link to original post



I generally sit out dont players when they shoot.
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 6:42:50 PM permalink
Sounds like Alan has gone cheerleader on us. And I am a DI apparently because I play differently from the way the
majority of other people losing at the table are cheering...
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 6:45:12 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4537
August 28th, 2022 at 6:50:05 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post



It’s really not gobbledygook. And there’s no blinding by the math.

I thought your last post was right on. You want to bet with what the table or rooting for and enjoy the experience at min cost. Makes total sense.

Then you make a post of trash like above. Maybe because you thought “it was going to hit fan.” Lol. I have no problem with how you play. I sometimes don’t work for superstitious reasons or because I don’t want to not root for a 7 winner.

I could also randomly turn off my odds every now and then irrespective of whether it’s a come out or not. Maybe because the dice flew off the table. It’s all the same thing.

It feels really enjoyable to leave your odds working and get paid when the point is established. It pisses me off when my odds are off and they come down because the point was established. It feels like I lost a bet.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 6:52:26 PM permalink
So a 10/36 chance of winning isn't worth a 1/6 risk? Why even bother trying?

Let say I take place odds bets on the 4,6,8,10. If its a come out roll, you would turn off a 16/36 (a 44.444% chance of winning) against the 1/6 risk. Just because every one else is cheering for a 7 on the come out roll???
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 6:56:06 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 6:56:08 PM permalink
Okay... now I'll wax mathematical:

Craps is a negative expectation game. The more you bet the more you'll lose.

Bet less, play longer.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 6:58:17 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson



Regarding the come out roll: why keep your bets on when most shooters are trying for a winner-7?
]

The dice aren’t affected by what the shooter wants.

So if the shooter was betting don’t pass, would you leave bets on ?
link to original post



I generally sit out dont players when they shoot.
link to original post

Why do you sit out?
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 7:01:38 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
link to original post



There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4537
August 28th, 2022 at 7:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
link to original post



There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)
link to original post




I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 7:18:20 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
link to original post



There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)
link to original post




I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?
link to original post



Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4537
August 28th, 2022 at 7:33:23 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
link to original post



There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)
link to original post




I’ll try.

For me the point of craps is the odds bet. It’s awesome. You get to bet a lot at high variance at true odds. When it hits you win more than you bet!

The flat bet is the cost. I hate the flat bet. But you have to pay the toll to get to the awesome odds bet.

Why should I pay the toll on a roll without getting the fun odds bet?
link to original post



Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?
link to original post



I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 8:08:32 PM permalink
Quote: unJon



I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.
link to original post



They are not comparable. Your come bet with odds on the 8 must be rolled a second time for you to collect anything.

Of course if you're a DI you can do that.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 8:29:18 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon



I dunno. To me those aren’t comparable. At $30 place bet in the 8 is comparable to a $30 pass plus odds bet on the 8.
link to original post



They are not comparable. Your come bet with odds on the 8 must be rolled a second time for you to collect anything.
link to original post

Gotta be the silliest statement that misguided players often make. There was no “first time” that the come bettor rolled for an 8 so how can there be a “second time”? Before any point was established for the come bet, the come bettor was reaping a 33% advantage over the casino
It’s all about making that GTA
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 8:42:49 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Here’s the reason some people leave their come odds on. You can’t turn off the flat bet. Given that, why not take advantage of the free odds?

link to original post



This is truly being blinded by the math. You concede that the flat bet could lose but the odds bets are free having no house edge?

Wow. There's so much gobbledygook in that I don't know where to start.
link to original post

Please do start and elaborate. What is gobbledygook about leaving bets working, especially free bets ?
link to original post



There's no gobbledygook about leaving bets including odds working.

The gobbledygook is thinking odds bets have some mystical ability that flat bets dont have.

The mystical ability? Flat bets are exposed to the house edge but odds bets are free.

This is gobbledygook.

Odds bets are PAID without a house edge but odds bets still lose when the flat bet loses.

That's reality unless you're blinded by the math.

(I know, I really started it this time.)
link to original post

Are you actually being serious?

Of course you will lose odds bets sometimes (most of the time as a right side bettor) but, over the long term, you will win/lose nothing. It’s just fun variance around a break-even long-term result, so why turn them off ever ?
It’s all about making that GTA
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 8:58:39 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

[
Smaller place bets that also win (but get paid less than odds bets) aren't fun?

Let's measure fun:

I have a $12 bet on 8. You have a $10 come bet on 8 with double odds ($30 total).

A 8 is thrown again. I have fun... and do you have more fun?

But when a 7 is the next roll I have "no fun." Tell me, is your "no fun" less than my "no fun" because there was no house edge on your $20 odds?
link to original post

The difference is that, for the same amount of fun, you are paying about 600% more house edge (relative) with a place bet than with a come bet plus 5x odds (what kind of fool would bet 2x free odds when he can bet 5x ???).

Apples to apples: with a $60 place bet on 8 you’re paying 1.66% vig on the entire amount. The come bettor is paying 1.41% on his $10 flat bet and nothing on his $50 odds bet., Saving so much that he can afford to leave his odds bets on during comeout

That’s for the 6/8. Placing the other numbers is much more disastrous compared to come bets plus odds
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 8:59:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2



Of course you will lose odds bets sometimes (most of the time as a right side bettor) but, over the long term, you will win/lose nothing. It’s just fun variance around a break-even long-term result, so why turn them off ever ?
link to original post



Wow.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 109
  • Posts: 4670
August 28th, 2022 at 9:20:23 PM permalink
Losing one Come bet on the Come-out isn't so bad, and winning one isn't so bad either. Losing 2 or more Come-bets on the come-out gets to be awful, and you want to add odds to them?
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 10:29:49 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I

But when bets are on they can lose. And unless you have an unlimited bankroll OR you can truly influence the dice to avoid 7s why not limit your exposure to losing?

I really am a recreational player. My joy is being at the table for the longest period of time with the smallest possible exposure.

The rest of you -- making come bets, piling on odds, having bets working all the time, must have some ability to predict the future that I don't have.
]

From what I read, you are primarily a place bettor, which means you freely choose to pay about 10x the house edge of a pass/come bet with 3-4-5 odds. 4% vs 0.37%. Yet you chastise someone for leaving their bets on during comeout, which will increase their betting action by about 8.5/6 - 1 = 42%. Has nothing to do with hot shooters or what the shooter wants to roll.

You’re good with a 981% increase but 42% is way too much. Make any sense ?
It’s all about making that GTA
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 28th, 2022 at 10:34:37 PM permalink
The lingo and terminology is confusing to me. I will go again and try later in the week.

I will be playing 25 on the pass line. Once a point is established I will place odds on the 6 and 8 at 30ea. I will tell them to keep my bets working. If a point is established and made, I will win 25 for my pass line bet but leave the numbers bets on risking $60 on the next come out roll. If the next come out roll is a 7out, I'm only losing the 60 in numbers bets but will win the pass line 25. So technically I'm only down 35 vs maybe making 35 if the new point happens to be a 6 or 8. That seems pretty EV to me.

Thanks to all for the input. I'll keep ya posted. Or maybe this is too confusing and I should stick to house money or pair square.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 10:57:57 PM permalink
Ace, I'm guessing that my $52 across at a $10 table is LESS money potentially lost than two or possibly even one come bet with 3, 4, 5 odds.

If you're happy playing your way then please continue.

But I don't know which number will be thrown next. So I'm going to make the smallest bets and hope that the roll will continue.

I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
August 28th, 2022 at 11:31:19 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.
link to original post

Once again, I have to ask: Are you sure you understand what “free bet” means?

It does not mean that you win it every time. That would be free money

“Repeater” lol
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 28th, 2022 at 11:39:04 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson


I play this way because I've seen people load up numbers with come bets and odds and never hit a repeater. That they had so much money on the table with no house edge on the payoffs means zilch when a 7 is rolled because 100% of the bets still lose.
link to original post

Once again, I have to ask: Are you sure you understand what “free bet” means?

It does not mean that you win it every time. That would be free money

“Repeater” lol
link to original post



I've written several times the correct definition of the odds bet being free -- meaning that they are paid without a house edge.

I never said the odds were a free bet or free money or free anything.

Calling odds "free" is a misnomer.

Odds bets are real money. And they lose on a 7, whether a winner-7 on a come out or a 7-out which ends a roll.

Good luck with your play.
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 29th, 2022 at 12:26:59 AM permalink
See too much lingo. I'll go to vegas and hang with MDawg II He seems like a fun guy that doesn't want to argue with every other person that doesn't get his lingo or disagrees over who should be punting for the Buffalo Bills...
Wiggins
Wiggins
Joined: Mar 26, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 76
Thanks for this post from:
unJon
August 29th, 2022 at 12:34:57 AM permalink
Why does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 29th, 2022 at 12:42:02 AM permalink
No bets are risk free. I understand that. I'm not dumb either and understand the fundamentals, odds and math. I sometimes play the hardways if I'm in the mood and feel like taking a sucker bet hook. That sometimes works too even though the odds suck and they are sucker bets. I was just looking for clarification one one thing:

Leaving bets working when the puck is off and was asking for opinions about that. I've seen repeater 6 or 8s happen a bunch recently and if the bets are left working, they pay. If the bets are off they don't pay. I'll learn by experiences not by starting people bickering about the correct way to play based on their styles and idiocracies...
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 29th, 2022 at 12:56:49 AM permalink
Quote: Wiggins

Why does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.
link to original post



You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.
Wiggins
Wiggins
Joined: Mar 26, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 76
Thanks for this post from:
camaplpwcrabb
August 29th, 2022 at 1:21:58 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Wiggins

Why does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.
link to original post



You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.
link to original post



Proof:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/alanmendelson/posts/

This website was started by the Wizard of ODDS. People read these forums because they are drawn to the mathematical side of gambling. The house edge of all the different craps bets are on his page. He recommends leaving odds working on the come-out because it reduces overall house edge. If you prefer to use a less mathematically optimal method at craps, that's fine. Play your money however you like. But why do you insist on always stirring the pot? The math stuff isn't debatable.

If anything, you owe the rest of the forum an apology for derailing every craps thread.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
August 29th, 2022 at 1:46:21 AM permalink
Quote: Wiggins

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Wiggins

Why does every single craps thread evolve into Alan vs the same 2-3 posters? Don't you guys get tired of continuously making the same arguments?

Alan, most users of this website all have the same fundamental understanding of gambling, math, and house edge. You do not have a grasp on these fundamentals and don't seem to have the desire to learn. I mostly lurk and enjoy your posts on other topics but your act is growing tiresome.

I do agree that "free odds" is a poor term. We all know that free refers to lack of house edge, but new players could get confused and think it's a risk-free bet.
link to original post



You agree with me that "free odds" is a poor term but also say I don't have a "fundamental understanding of gambling, math and house edge"?

I challenge you to prove your claim and your insult. If you can't prove it then apologize for your insult.
link to original post



Proof:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/alanmendelson/posts/

This website was started by the Wizard of ODDS. People read these forums because they are drawn to the mathematical side of gambling. The house edge of all the different craps bets are on his page. He recommends leaving odds working on the come-out because it reduces overall house edge. If you prefer to use a less mathematically optimal method at craps, that's fine. Play your money however you like. But why do you insist on always stirring the pot? The math stuff isn't debatable.

If anything, you owe the rest of the forum an apology for derailing every craps thread.
link to original post



I challenge your definition of proof. But I'll make it easy on you: Point out just one error I made in the mathematics of craps. Just one.
wizardofbuffalo
wizardofbuffalo
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 96
August 29th, 2022 at 2:13:17 AM permalink
Seems like now we have a pissing contest between people who should be spending more time being their own wizards at the casino.
and less time fighting with other people who use different wizard tools and have different wizard beliefs. I'll try my chances at the casino...
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 109
  • Posts: 4670
August 29th, 2022 at 3:03:45 AM permalink
So you've got the PL bet that only has odds if the point is 6 or 8, and if it isn't, you make a Come bet and hope that point becomes 6 or 8 and if it is you put odds on it. I kind of like this for some reason, but not your reason. I'd likely use it at a $5 table with 5X odds, though I might be allowed up to 10X odds..

PS: $25 odds on the 6 or 8 pays $30, and $30 odds pays $36. Odds bets are in multiples of $5, except on Bubble Craps.
$30 PB 6 or 8 pays $35. PB 6 or 8's are bet in multiples of $6, except on Bubble Craps.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Aug 29, 2022

  • Jump to: