MattUK
MattUK
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February 16th, 2020 at 8:50:28 AM permalink
The closest to fair bet in Las Vegas - or any casino for that matter - is Craps with full odds (Wizard's number 1 game in one of his usually instructive tutorials). The more odds the closer to 100% Return To Player (fair bet). You cannot bet on the odds alone as the game is essentially played in 2 phases. From the other hand you may not be able or willing to take full odds, thus leaving the excess unclaimed. That made me think when players can collude, pardon - cooperate, to get the Gambling Holy Graal - fair odds bet. I can foresee three such situations:

1. "Party Craps"
Best played in a group of 10 - shooter and 9 of his friends. Stag party? Birthday? This kind of event as it requires both trust and equality. Members randomly select the shooter - there is 90% chance not to be - and head to a casino with 100x odds (speaking of Las Vegas, Cromwell). The shooter collects his 9 friend's money for an agreed number of rounds or until certain winnings. He backs the odds by his 10x and everybody else. For example, the money waged may be 10+100 for the shooter and 9 * 100 = 1010. Thanks to trust and collaboration nine people do something incredible - they play a fair game in the casino. What they save is 9 * 10 * 7/495 (playing Pass Line) = 1.27$ per round. As a rule of a thumb after the playing session and distributing the winnings the shooter should be rewarded by friends by a free steak and drinks. The money instead of going to Cromwell goes to him. It works best on a fixed number of rounds no-matter-what as the savings can be calculated beforehand. It's meant to be even more fun than normal Craps and the joy is to have a fair bet thanks to collaboration. It can also work with the shooter and 4 friends all backing up 20x odds.

PROS: double the fun, extremely social and team building, friends reward one of their own with a dinner
CONS: not that easy to organize the night out

2. "Craps Mule"
It's a commercial variant of Party Craps where the shooter is not known to the players. He only bet on Pass Line or Don't Pass with his money. The players back up 100x odds with their money. In the above example there will be 10 of them instead of 9, all betting 100$.

PROS: players may be strangers, easy to calculate savings, eventually casino may "legalize" it as a special offer for groups to give the thrill (with the Boxman being the Mule)
CONS: legally grey area, action must be based on trust, casino may ban the Mule

3. "Craps Stitch"
Two strangers alternately buck up their odds to the max with other player's half. For example, instead of playing with 10x odds they go to the Main Street Station. One plays the same as before - 5+50, but adds the other guy's 50$ to the full 20x. The next round he returns the favour. You should play even number of rounds unless no hard feelings.

PROS: no need for a group or the Mule, easiest way to get the true odds, you could make a new friend, no realistic way for the casino to ban
CONS: not really

I would be interested to know your opinion. Especially the prospect of a special offer for 10-strong groups. I think that many tourists would be glad to be part of it for the fun of it even if the ticket would decrease the RTP to around 3-4-5x level. Who wouldn't want to place a fair bet in Las Vegas?
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 16th, 2020 at 9:17:45 AM permalink
Quote:

1. "Party Craps" ... The shooter collects his 9 friend's money

Perhaps I'll get back to the rest of this, but I feel I should instantly point out something you may not know: free odds bets multiples 5x and over [never mind 100x] are extremely volatile. If you collected that $1010 and bet the way you suggest, to instantly lose it all is a very likely event. Likely winnings if re-bet in the same way are almost doomed [you actually need a huge bankroll]. Are your friends expecting something different from your evident enthusiasm? they need to know this.

Quote:

What they save is 9 * 10 * 7/495 (playing Pass Line) = 1.27$ per round immaterial

fixed that for you

Quote:

As a rule of a thumb after the playing session and distributing the winnings the shooter should be rewarded by friends by a free steak and drinks

the shooter is likely to be pounded to a pulp instead.

sorry to be the turd in the punchbowl
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MattUK
MattUK
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February 16th, 2020 at 10:28:38 AM permalink
Oh, fella. You either didn't understand the idea or don't understand Craps. Learn the rules and go to the casino to give it a try, seriously. It's worth it. It's the most social casino game, but playing as a team aka Party Craps is set to be even better because it eliminates coming out for everyone but the shooter who gets the free dinner from the saved house edge. It's all about joining forces to have a fair bet.
Last edited by: MattUK on Feb 16, 2020
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 16th, 2020 at 11:05:09 AM permalink
Quote: MattUK

Oh, fella. You either didn't understand the idea or don't understand Craps. Learn the rules and go to the casino to give it a try, seriously.

So you think *I* am the one who has never given it a try? That's odd, I was thinking that ... oh, never mind.

I'd say judging by your reply we'll just be providing popcorn munching entertainment for no good reason, so I'll desist. Just for the record, you did not invent putting odds behind someone else's line bet.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MattUK
MattUK
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February 16th, 2020 at 11:14:43 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Just for the record, you did not invent putting odds behind someone else's line bet.



Now you're starting to be serious and that's a good thing. What I find a bit surprising is that that obvious strategy is not talk about, even on websites about Craps or Las Vegas. It starts fitting for low bettors on a session with 20x odds which costs from 63$ so it can be split into (3+30)+30. But of course, the sheer pleasure of having a fair bet is worth it anywhere.
Last edited by: MattUK on Feb 16, 2020
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 16th, 2020 at 12:40:49 PM permalink
It's just as well not to talk about it in my view. I have one more thing to say and that'll be it.

I am being the most serious when I say you seem to be leaving out the bankroll needed. Perhaps you don't mean to show up with a mere $1010 at a 100x table, but mean you'd bring multiples of that while betting 1010 at a time. Of course you have to allow for the occasional loss of your 10 buck starting line bet, but in the long run you shouldnt have a problem with the effect of rolling craps in the come-out.

Perhaps you are thinking of 9 friends and you bringing around $10,000 each. But then being "not that easy to organize the night out" is putting it mildly.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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February 16th, 2020 at 1:26:33 PM permalink
I'll probably be betting the Don'ts.
MattUK
MattUK
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February 16th, 2020 at 1:35:47 PM permalink
Point noted, but I don't see this as a problem for few reasons.
First, the idea is to accumulate odds not claimed anyway. Whenever Craps aficionados (love the word, BTW), especially in Cromwell, don't accumulate them they are doing it wrong - EVEN if they avoid sucker bets and only play with as much odds as they are comfortable with. The consequence of that is that they all pay a "tax" for taking the odds in the form of come-out bet, even if the cumulative odds from the table <100x and almost all bet on Pass Line. So it's more like everyday's Craps table reality. Taking as much odds as you like is like the basic strategy in Blackjack while cooperating to avoid come-out is next level, like card counting.
Secondly, the accumulated bet doesn't have to be $1010. 100x is just the upper limit. It can be (10+50)+9*50 = $510 for the price of shooter taking 5x odds. On the extreme end, you'll have 101 guys from Joker's Wild betting 1*10+100*10. All 100 players avoiding 1$ come-out. How about THAT? Realistically, we're talking free odds for entire family, club members or everyone at work.
Thirdly, some people may just want to have "fair bet in Las Vegas" on their bucket list and wish to play only a few rounds.
MattUK
MattUK
Joined: Jul 25, 2017
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February 16th, 2020 at 2:30:52 PM permalink
Now, my friend, imagine a game with Craps Odds only, which runs on TV when patrons buy 1000 tickets for $10 each and play with $9.90... It's an instant Baccarat-killer and my second version commercialized.

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