First time playing craps

I thought I'd post about my first time playing craps, which was this morning. I've spent the last week reading on the Wizard's site and some in this forum, so thanks for all the tips. My usual spot is the Horseshoe Hammond, and I got there at 9 AM thinking there should be some open spots. However, only one table was going and it was full. I played some video poker (I know the pay tables aren't great there) and made $60, and then saw they were opening up a new table.

I bought in for $300, which I figured should last awhile, especially since I planned on playing conservatively. It's a ten dollar table, and I played with full double odds. It's 100x odds at the Horseshoe, but with a ten dollar minimum that's all I was willing to risk. I only passed the pass line with one or two come bets.

The dice started two to my left, and it was pretty cold. After halfway around the full table I think I was down to $150. There was one good shooter that hit a couple points, but by the time the dice came to me I was even further down, I think to less than a hundred.

So I get the dice and I'm pretty nervous, so the first throw goes off the table. But I settled down (some, still went off table two more times) and ended up doing well. I shot for close to half an hour, although only made one point. Some of my come bets hit, but I didn't have more than three numbers covered at any one time. So I made about $200 on the roll, but the people around me did really well. My first roll was a hard eight and my neighbors started betting that a lot, and I ended up throwing three more hard eights with no easy eights in the mix. They were loving me at that point, and on the last one the lady next to me told me she had be ten for me, so I got $90 out of that. Finally sevened out and got a nice little round of applause. Another neighbor who was betting $30 on the hard eight put down $15 on the passline for me after my roll.

I played a little while longer and ended up leaving exactly even (after a tip), after about two and a half hours. It was a lot of fun.

I do have a couple of questions. Only myself and one other guy were playing any come bets. Everyone else was all over the middle of the table, to the point where I couldn't see how the dealers kept track of everything. Is this typical? Is the minimum for those bets a dollar, or are you expected to spread a certain amount over those bets? And why no come bets for most people?

Most of us innumerate craps players know that come bets suck because you have to hit a number twice to get paid compared to only once with the more superior place bets. Also playing the middle of the table is the best craps bet when you are betting what the table is giving you.

I'm uncertain as to whether this is a humor thread or not.

Yeah, place bets pay off when hit the first time.... at fairly low rates.

Come bets and Pass Line bets (same thing really) gotta hit twice but pay off better.

Youse pays your money and youse takes your chance.

Center Action... they don't pay that Stick Man to advise people to play conservatively.

Most people don't like come bets because they can be a bit more boring and slow. Pass and come bets are the best bets to make (lower HE than the other bets).

It's common for chips to be all over the table, especially on a table full of people during a long roll. Dealers keep track of the bets by placing them in certain positions relative to where the player is standing. For the hard six, for example, imagine the betting box is just the entire table. Whoever is standing one right of the stick, gets their chips put in that same relative position in the box. The same applies for place bets, come bets, and other center action bets.

The higher HE bets are in the center. Unless you like throwing your money away faster, you should avoid bets in the center. Perhaps put out a $1 yo on the come out roll only when you're shooting or a $1-2 hard way if you're shooting for a specific even number, if you wanna add a little spice to the game.

Your bankroll can swing either way very quickly with craps. Even playing very conservatively at $10 table you'll have a few sessions where you burn through $300 very quickly.

Even the Craps players who have played a long time have no idea what the hell they are doing if they never do the math, which is 99.9999999% of them. They listen too to the dealers and other players when they start, and those guys praise the sucker bets.

So they rely on faulty memory - this usually seems to revolve around having a lot of numbers covered inside, outside, and down the middle when some shooter comes along and can't roll a 7-out - all the bets pay off handsomely then and if you press them it can mean thousands.

If they ever try pass + come without pressing it seems boring and never pays off as well as the others. Of course they remember the times when they lost all their money quickly doing it either way. So if this is how you learn, how would it be any other way?

Is the minimum for the place bets the table minimum?

Quote: jmills

Is the minimum for the place bets the table minimum?

Yes.

Quote: jmills

Is the minimum for the place bets the table minimum?

Not to quibble, but "kind of."

It is the LOWEST amount you can make on a bet, no question, but when most people ask "what is the table minimum?" they are asking about the line bet (higer amount), not a proposition bet.

The center bets, i.e. the sucker bets, are so bad that the house will let you bet les than the table minimum. Even at a $100 min table, you can bet $1 on the hard ways. It's that bad of a bet.

Yet, the suckers always try to tell you how good it is, especially when it hits.

Did someone really just say that place bets are better than come bets because you have to hit the come bet twice? Lol.

Quote: klimate10

Did someone really just say that place bets are better than come bets because you have to hit the come bet twice? Lol.

Yup, a sock puppet from another dice board did!

Quote: DeMango

Yup, a sock puppet from another dice board did!

Not that bad of a comment... Pass line is the worst bet in my opinion. Sure the odds behind are true odds...but what good are true odds if the probability of hitting it is low. I rather play the place bets. Hit a couple of boxes and walk away. THIS is the closest to a winning strategy in craps... if there is one.

I was on the dice table last week again with a guy who can never go off. He just stays on every roll and thinks he is going to get lots of numbers every time. He goes broke every time I see him. I play on the same game, the same rolls. However, I go off after I hit a couple of boxes , then start over again on new shooters if I like the way the shoot. Needless to say... I walked away from the table ahead, and the others all lost. So, I would argue that this is the winning strategy. Ive done it over and over and watched the same results of others. If you stick around and stay on every roll thinking 'that roll' is going to be a long roll, you will go broke quicker than you can say broke mf. Hit n Run.... this is the winning strategy. Period!

edit edit edit

I see some problems with what you posted, perhaps you are interested in discussing it.

Quote: klimate10

For those not in the know, a put bet is effectively a come bet + odds, but you give up the advantage of coming out, where you have 8 ways to win and 4 ways to lose.

In Craps, if you state it that way, it usually means you have an 8:4 advantage [2 to 1 that is]. Out of 12 possible outcomes, 8 of them favor the player in that claim.

Quote:

Win on a put bet where the point is 6 is $143.

Win on a 6 place bet is $140.

So a put bet, which is effectively a late come bet, whereyou give up the +ev of a come out roll, has a $3 greater pay off than a place bet (on a $120 total).

You're not using weighted outcomes. You can't just go by the outcome alone, if you could, the 12 would be the smartest bet on the table since $1 pays $30 on a win.

Let me see if I can do the math - sometimes that is a bad outcome!! Seems to me the bet on a '6' has 5 ways to win and 6 ways to lose - you use all the possible sides of the dice that could come up - that's 11 outcomes that count, probability then is 5/11 for a win, 6/11 for a loss.

put bet with $115 free odds pays even money on $5, 6 to 5 on the 115 or $138 + 5 = 143, we agree.
the probability though is 5/11 on a win, multiply and get $62.7272727
on a loss it is 6/11 against 120, get -$65.454545
overall house edge seems to be 2.73/120 or about 2.275%

on a place bet it pays 7:6 or $140, we agree again
5/11 on a win = 63.636363
6/11 on a loss against 120 = -65.45454
that's HE of $1.818177/120 = 1.515%
Wizard says the edge is 1.52% so I think I did it right

In any case I am trying to weigh the outcomes against the probabilities. To get the correct answer you must do that. You can see you made the wrong argument.

Quote: WatchMeWin

Pass line is the worst bet in my opinion.

Buying the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, and 12 for $35 with vig on a win are your best bets. Beats the pass line for sure. But the pass line beats every other place bet there is. Period!

It's a mistake to argue with idiots

Quote: klimate10

If anyone says they would rather bet $120 on a place 6 rather than $5 come + $115 odds, they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

You are missing the point here.... If you have 5 bucks on the pass and the point is 6, now you have to make the 6 again to win your place bet and odds bet. The probability of hitting the 6 twice before a 7 is the concern here. Of course if you only had to either bet the 6 and hit it one time to win 3 extra bucks, then why wouldn't you, but that is not the case. I submit, place all the box numbers regardless of what the point is (which is stuck there until point is made or 7 out) and once the number hits... take everything down and walk. Now you dont have to wait for the 6 to come again. You can win on a 4,5,6,8,9,10 and even the 2,3,11,12 if you iron cross it. The probability of hitting any of those numbers once as opposed to hitting a point number twice is dramatically different. Yes, the risk is greater, but I am willing to take those risks for higher probabilities of success. If someone point 7 out right away... oh well, thats life. It happens , but if you are disciplined and can walk after hitting 2 numbers at a clip, you will be better off in the long run.

Bwahahaha

I love craps players.

I'll exit this argument, and let others, who have more time and inclination, take over.

Quote: klimate10

Bwahahaha

I love craps players.

I'll exit this argument, and let others, who have more time and inclination, take over.

Do you play craps klimate?

My mistake was making the argument to begin with

Quote: klimate10

I stay away from gambling nowadays and use all my gambling money buying big boy toys, like high end guns and art. Much more satisfying.

It was fun. This thread and some of the arguments in it remind of times when I'd be at a really hot craps table, and everyone would chide me for not playing the hardways. After all, we do know, for a fact, that the hardways pays 7-1, and the pass only pays a measly even money. Lol. Those were fun days. Expensive and useless, but fun.

It also reminds me of the time I was killing time after a really hot craps session, plopped down at a three card poker table, played one hand and hit a straight flush...and won $5. Lol. The table went crazy that I didn't bet the side bet. At that exact moment, explaining to the table that all the money I saved by not ever betting the pairs plus was more than the 40x (that I would have won) would have been a useless exercise.

Yea, most people give it up when they constantly lose.

It's called self control.

If you think you're going to be a winner, then you're delusional.

But do whatever makes you feel comfortable.

If you do not know how to win, then it is prudent to stay away and use self control. Self control would suggest that you want to play but cant because you lose , therefore you use self control in order to stay off the tables. Im happy that you understand your inefficiencies and stay away from craps, as your reasoning regarding the come bet play are less than optimal.

There is no "winning strategy" in the game of craps. The math is never in our favor, the player. That being said, pass line and come betting has a lower overall house edge than place betting. Not much, but yes, pass line and come betting has a lower house edge.

The chance of rolling ANY number is completely independent of whatever number came up previously and has the same chances of hitting.

"The problem with the come bet is you have to hit the number twice" is a completely ridiculous line of thinking.

For your 1st few posts I assumed you were just joking around. I hate when people give new players to any game horrible advice. It seems craps and blackjack have the highest number of "teachers"

These 'teachers' are serious. They're not joking, fellas.

I've met plenty of guys who genuinely believe some of the stuff stated in this thread.

There's no point in arguing with an idiot.

I know, I see it all too often. To the OP, welcome to the craps club! It can be loads of fun, glad you had a good 1st roll.

The bets in the center are usually made in $1 increments, except the Horn Bet which is $4, ($1 each on 2,3,11,12) and the World Bet, (Horn + 7) made in increments of $5. The Hardways can be multi roll bets, most other middle bets are win/ lose on the next roll.

These bets all have a pretty high house edge, but it's personal preference to play them as long as you are aware of the higher house edge

I almost never see anyone else make come bets. In fact, I'd say 1/2 the players I see don't even take any odds on their line bets. Place bets on the 6 or 8 aren't a bad bet. The 4 + 10 are downright bad to place. Buying them is a viable option if the vig is win only

Thanks for all the info everybody. I went back last night and ended up at a table pretty much opposite of my first experience. Not much betting in the center and pretty quiet. I also got to see something beyond the dice setters I saw on the first day. Two people would take the five dice, roll them against the wall underneath them, set a die aside, repeat until two dice were chosen. Then on subsequent rolls they would roll the two dice against the wall in some way to determine how to set them I guess. First one sevened out on their second roll, second one made a couple of points.

It was a pretty cold table - I had bought in for $200 and was down to about $40 when it was my turn. Guy to my left asked if I was going to shoot, and I said yes. He gives me a look and bets the don't pass. I started out with three sevens in a row, and then made five unique points and one or two come bets. Nobody had placed the fire bet, including myself, and the dealers were chiding everybody. But I made about $300 on the roll, so I colored up, tipped and left. Had a great time, but only the dealers seemed excited, everybody else was dead. The guy to my left did not seem happy. I then played my usual game of pai gow for long enough to get a free meal at the noodle bar and left. BTW, if anyone goes to the Horseshoe in Hammond, I highly recommend the noodle bar. Good food, short to no wait, and only requires a half hour play at pai gow, tiles, or baccarat.