Craps machines-beatable?

Hello everyone,
You probable know this funny machines: few players bet on craps, than two large cubes start to roll, and the "shooter" can push the button. Then the cubes "jump" and when they land and stop, it is the result.
But when the cubes roll, the players can see their current status and decide when to shoot. I am not sure that the "shot" is 100% random.
So maybe with fast reactions, you can beat this game and controll the results? Did anyone make a research on this topic?
For example maybe when the cubes show 6-1, the player should push the button in order to reduce the chance for getting another 6-1 after the "shot".

*I know you have a forum for dice controlling, but this case is different because it is based on a mechanical, automatic throw and not usual human-based.

Interesting idea, but pretty unlikely. These machines were built to be stand alone craps games with no pit/supervisors overseeing. Often times, the sharpest people in the house are in the craps pits... With lots of bets, odds, and players to keep track of. A big concern of casinos is a "fair roll" and I've seen then yell at players for throwing the dice too low, too high, etc, etc.

You have an interesting concept that the final "jump" of the dice (when the 'shooter' hits the button) is not random, but you'll have one hell of a time proving out that concept. You'll need tens of thousands of rolls, all hitting the button when they have 6-1 up (for example) and need to record all of the different results to see if the numbers are in fact skewed in any fashion.

Next, the dice jumble around before hitting the button, but what if 6-1 happens to not come up for you to do your "controlled" throw?

Lastly, if I were building that game, i'd have the air blast that launches the balls up be of different PSI and different spots on the bottom by a random number generator. With all of these different factors built in, the thing would be about as close to random as you can get. Any SLIGHT difference in angle, height, position inside the tube, etc, etc, will result in a different throw. Much like regular dice control (which I do not believe in) there are a slew of variables to consider that I don't believe can be overcome. However, with your bubble craps idea, there isn't any data/information out there yet (that I know of). So perhaps you simply need the data. Go start recording throw after throw for 10k throws and make sure you're "controlling" the throw perfectly for every single one. Record your data and report back with your findings. That's really the only way to figure out if you have an edge or not with this type of game/idea.

I don't have the money or time to perform this research by myself, especially with my country where gambling is illegal(I visited vegas recently and thought about the idea).

Maybe a gambling expert like the wizard has the time and resources for that...

Quote: lavifighter

...Maybe a gambling expert like the wizard has the time and resources for that...

Unfortunately I doubt it =/. This is kind of like finding a biased wheel in roulette... It takes a long time and a lot of recorded data. People have jobs/lives/etc. It's going to take someone with "that" much devotion to it to put the time/effort in to getting the necessary statistical data for proof of concept.

I think your first place to start, which you could do, would be to research these machines and find out how they work... When the 'shooter' hits the button, what happens? I mean the detailed engineering level answer... A compressor blows air at the bottom of the tub and it pops the balls up... Well, does it blow at the same angle every time? Does it always blow with the exact same PSI? These variables need to be static (the same) every time otherwise the idea is dead from the beginning. IF you were able to find these answers that they ARE in fact the same every time, then you might have a "chance" in moving in the right direction. Next, you'd need to pop the dice from the exact same spot every time, which when they're rattling around would be quite difficult to do. Finally, not only shooting from the same spot, but the same orientation (6-1 on top) for example every time.

Personally I think there are too many variables for this to be viable, but if you're interested and dedicated to finding the answer, then start with research on the machines to figure out your variables and if they're static or not.

Tried this, gave up. Hit button, little bigger than normal Up platform, than little bigger than normal down platform, then biggest Up platform (dice launch), returns to normal platform shake (I think). Convinced myself I was onto something for a bit. Tracked a couple thousand. Didn't make me rich. Destroyed most if not all records already.

I believe there is something like an arm spinning beneath the table that assists in providing the launch. You'll notice it when the dice come to a stable bounce along the wall that they bounce up a bit more than normal when the so-called arm beneath has circled to that point. Good luck.

Also, the math gets funky(somewhat difficult for me at least) when tracking a pair and finding an edge.

Is it just me or is there a slight delay from when you hit the shoot to win button to the time it actually pops the dice up into the air? Isn't there lots of vibration going on?

As someone who just won first place in my first craps tournament I consider myself the foremost authority on all things craps (sorry, not sorry, mustangsally). First rule: DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT, wait the full amount of time until the machine will shoot the dice. People have things to do and don't give a toss about your silly superstitions. Btw, if you have action without a line bet, the machine will instantly shoot the dice automatically without waiting.

Quote: AxelWolf

Is it just me or is there a slight delay from when you hit the shoot to win button to the time it actually pops the dice up into the air?

Yes, see the order in my post above.

Quote: Axelwolf

Isn't there lots of vibration going on?

It was also my experience that there must be different vibration settings. I once found one during my testing that must have been set the lowest. There must have been a slight angle to the entire unit as the dice kept winding up in the same corner repeatedly, without fail. That was my golden chance at proving it easy. And I did prove it to myself! (little money made as it was more for testing) (also wanted to point out that it was this one that spurred further testing and wasting of time/money) Never found one set that low of vibration setting again. Next day it was on a higher setting. It also appears that the more dice rolls you have(more points made), after it switches too red light craziness during the hottest of rolls(should be easy to figure out, can't remember how many points made it is or rolls it was) vibration settings go up.

I'll wait on this till Scoblete writes a book to see if it's worth my time!

Quote: DeMango

I'll wait on this till Scoblete writes a book to see if it's worth my time!

Apparently you never read the very bottom of page 24 in Beyond Counting Exhibit CAA.

If someone who I felt was sain and logical told me with a straight face there's some merit to this I wouldn't automatically call them crazy. But if it was coming from some random person I would have to call them crazy.
I could be wrong, but I don't think its worth the time and effort. I would have to assume each machine would be different and you would have to track each machine that you were going to play separately.

If you did start beating a machine I have to assume they would do something about it since they know exactly how much they are winning or losing.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Apparently you never read the very bottom of page 24 in Beyond Counting Exhibit CAA.

Missed it, then sold my book! I'm sure the $1500 profit, on the book made up for any +ev I missed. Correct me if wrong!

Quote: DeMango

Missed it, then sold my book! I'm sure the $1500 profit, on the book made up for any +ev I missed. Correct me if wrong!

Anything purchased from the guys listed at the bottom of it is -EV(infinity)!!!