Oklahoma casino's $1 ante - how to minimize the effects

I've been digging through lots of old threads & haven't seen this addressed (probably since it's such and odd-ball situation) - if it's already been looked into, please point me there.

While researching I found (one of many great posts) a post by Alan Shank stating that they only had card craps in CA but it was good enough. I wish that I felt that way about Oklahoma's card craps. Here's the deal;

For every come out roll, you have to pay a $1 ante - it's supposed to go to education or something in the state. That's EVERY come out roll - if a point gets established, you carry on with the hand - on a 7 or 11 winner, you get your winnings but have to put up another $1 ante to keep your pass line bet out there - on a 2, 3, or 12, you lose your bet and have to pony up another $1 to place another pass line bet.

So, as you can see, this pretty much amounts to - on a $5 pass line bet - a 20% vig no mater what. I get that increasing my pass line bet would decrease the vig % but that's not in the cards for my bankroll.

I've also read the admonishments against making a pass line bet after a point is already established & I understand why. Could it be, in the case of being charged a $1 ante for each & every come out roll, that this would be a situation where I would want to sit out the come out rolls and only place a pass line bet (with odds) AFTER the point is established? There would still be a $1 ante - but, I would have avoided all of the vigs for the naturals & craps.

My strategy is basically $5 pass line with 2x odds & after the point is established placing one unit on inside numbers - pulling the first win on each number then pressing one unit thereafter.

Bigger mathematical minds than me would know for sure - Does this hold water?

Thanks,
Tom O.

Do you have to do a pass line? What if you did nothing then did come bets?

Pass line bet is not required but, you'll still have to put a $1 ante for your first come bet (or place bet, etc.) - basically, any time you jump into a hand, you're on the hook for the ante.

I like the thought of sticking with the pass line since it will keep me rooting with the rest of the table - a big part of why I play craps - the crazy community it creates!

Quote: tomo0862

Pass line bet is not required but, you'll still have to put a $1 ante for your first come bet (or place bet, etc.) - basically, any time you jump into a hand, you're on the hook for the ante.

I like the thought of sticking with the pass line since it will keep me rooting with the rest of the table - a big part of why I play craps - the crazy community it creates!

If you don't want to increase your bet and you insist on making a PL bet, with all due respect, I don't know what you think anyone can do for you. Is there an ante on, "Center Action," bets? If there is no ante on those, then they are all going to have a lower House Edge than paying that $1 vig if $5 is going to be your Max PL bet. Even the horrendous Any Seven (which you should still not make!) would be better than a PL under the conditions you state.

If you want to go with the lowest Expected Loss on a per roll basis, then I would suggest sticking to the Hardways and not worrying about any single-roll resolutions like Hop Bets, Yos and Crap Checks. Just sit there and cover the Hardways, go with a PL if shooting is worth a buck to you. How much do you take in Odds?

I've never played center action bets on these tables but, yes, one must ante up a dollar each come out roll to keep the bets up.

I know that sticking with the pass line bet may not be the best move possible but, that is a big part of the entertainment value for me - that's why I play - for the sheer fun of it.

My original question still stands - Overall, does it help or hurt to sit out the come out rolls until a point is established? I think it helps - just need to find time to do the math to confirm.

Thanks for taking an interest!

Quote: tomo0862

My original question still stands - Overall, does it help or hurt to sit out the come out rolls until a point is established? I think it helps - just need to find time to do the math to confirm.

Thanks for taking an interest!

Okay, I think I misunderstood what you were wanting to know in the OP.

The bet that you are referring to is a Put Bet, and they have certain House Edges:

33.33% on the 4 & 10, which means you lose $1.6665 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $2.6665.

20.00% on the 5 & 9, so $1.00 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $2.00.

9.09% on the 6 & 8, so $0.4545 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $1.4545.

------

Now, you're automatically losing $1 on the Come Out roll plus (5*.0141), for a total of $1.0705.

It goes without saying that doing your Pass Line bet is the better bet on a per bet basis, however, if you are looking for longevity, then you are going to lose the $1 per bet resolved ON THE ACTUAL COME OUT ROLL 12/36 times.

Okay, so on those other 24/36 times, you will establish a Four or Ten 6/24, Five or Nine 8/24 and Six or Eight 10/24:

(6/36 * 2.6665) + (8/36* 2) + (10/36 * 1.4545) = 1.29288888889

Therefore, you are still losing $1.29 per Come Out Roll betting this way. However, if you do not PUT BET the 4 & 10:

(8/36* 2) + (10/36 * 1.4545) = 0.84847222222

Then, you are (Only?) losing $0.85 per Come Out Roll, which is an improvement. If you only PUT BET the 6 & 8:

(10/36 * 1.4545) = 0.40402777777

Then, you are losing $0.40 per Come Out Roll, so that is your best option, but you won't be in action nearly as often.

Lots of Oklahoma casinos have ways of avoiding the ante. Here are some of the more popular ones:

The house pays the ante during a "happy hour", usually in the afternoon on weekdays.
The ante is waived (paid by the house) on bets over some amount (usually $20)
The ante is waived (paid by the house) if you play using a players club card
About 1/3 of the casinos in the state just pay the ante for the player by default. I don't remember any of those having craps, though...

Actually comma can you just wait for a point of a six or an eight and then do a $6 place bet on the opposite and pay the dollar bill?

Quote: Mission146

Actually comma can you just wait for a point of a six or an eight and then do a $6 place bet on the opposite and pay the dollar bill?

Are you dictating your posts, like thru Siri or something?
That would make "actually comma" make sense ;-)
Was the OP named 'comma', now I gotta go back and look...?

@Mission146 - thank you so much for the math - I'm going to run that through my strategy to compare paying the $1 vig for every come out roll v. waiting for a point to be established - gives me a solid footing to proceed.

@rdw4potus - Unfortunately, I normally play at Winstar & those in charge of the finances there, only dogs can hear them when they fart - very convenient for me but very player unfriendly.

Quote: tomo0862

Unfortunately, I normally play at Winstar & those in charge of the finances there, only dogs can hear them when they fart - very convenient for me but very player unfriendly.

I am in complete agreement with you on this statement.

Quote: GWAE

Do you have to do a pass line? What if you did nothing then did come bets?

This is actually a good question. Do you only need $1 per pass line come out roll? If just making come bets, what happens to unresolved come bets if the point that pass line bet gets resolve? Do you need to pay $1 again?

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Are you dictating your posts, like thru Siri or something?
That would make "actually comma" make sense ;-)
Was the OP named 'comma', now I gotta go back and look...?

Just that one, I had closed the computer, but was still logged in on my phone and saw there was a response. I responded to it while I was on my way to my car, certainly not while I was driving because that would be illegal, absolutely not while I was driving. Reading the Forum just because you noticed a response in a thread in which you are active while driving would be totally irresponsible.

Anyway, it's a Google Phone, Nexus 5, on Google Hangouts it actually puts a ',' in there.

Quote: tomo0862

@Mission146 - thank you so much for the math - I'm going to run that through my strategy to compare paying the $1 vig for every come out roll v. waiting for a point to be established - gives me a solid footing to proceed.

You're welcome, not a problem!

I haven't made any come bets on these tables but I'm pretty sure that you'll have to ante $1 for your first one & after a point is resolved, you'd need to ante another $1 for each come out roll since the flat come bet is " on" during come out.

I'm beginning to think that the best move for my strategy would be to make place bets after a point is established - $1 ante - since I count on them (pass line & odds I view as a wash - almost) to fill my rail when I'm in on a long enough roll to press them significantly.