Thread Rating:

MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
September 20th, 2015 at 4:12:51 PM permalink
Quote: Wonko33

well then I accused the wrong people, I would still be interested in the arguments that made this get into the penal code. Is it because it is easier to see marked cards that funny dice or roulette tables? But who am I to talk about stupid laws, the ones where I live are even worse sometimes (Washington State)

I think that section of the penal code is very old, back to the days when you played poker in saloons but not dice or wheels. I get the sense that card games would have been entirely outlawed along with everything else if poker hadn't been such an important cultural item.

As to Washington, I have a distributor's license there. They're trying but they're underfunded because the market is shrinking (# of commercial cardrooms is down by about 50% in the past decade). Also the folks running the WSGC didn't grow up with their parents running casinos the way the regulators in, say, NV or NJ did.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
betwthelines
betwthelines
Joined: Jan 2, 2015
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 171
September 26th, 2015 at 5:03:14 PM permalink
Quote: Wonko33

I would love to sit in a room where the California gaming commission is debating the "logic" of not allowing dice and roulette, the level of stupidity must be staggering but oh so entertaining.


silly, the commissioners and legislators are politicians or appointed by politicians...doesn't that fact alone explain the level of stupidity?

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
"You can't EXPECT to win. But you CAN play Tough"...tom p, 1974
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
  • Threads: 78
  • Posts: 3398
September 27th, 2015 at 9:15:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wonko33

I would love to sit in a room where the California gaming commission is debating the "logic" of not allowing dice and roulette, the level of stupidity must be staggering but oh so entertaining.


My best guess is, it has something to do with something in the California Constitution, Article 4, Section 19(e):
"The Legislature has no power to authorize, and shall prohibit, casinos of the type currently operating in Nevada and New Jersey."
("Currently" refers to 1984, when California's voters first authorized a state lottery.)

Note that the tribal casinos couldn't open sports books even if they wanted to (and the state authorized it); that's a Federal ban.
Wonko33
Wonko33
Joined: Aug 29, 2015
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 122
September 27th, 2015 at 10:46:58 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

My best guess is, it has something to do with something in the California Constitution, Article 4, Section 19(e):
"The Legislature has no power to authorize, and shall prohibit, casinos of the type currently operating in Nevada and New Jersey."
("Currently" refers to 1984, when California's voters first authorized a state lottery.)

Note that the tribal casinos couldn't open sports books even if they wanted to (and the state authorized it); that's a Federal ban.



but you can do Draftkings and Fanduel (both still illegal in stupid WA state) because it is FANTASY football, I don't remember where but someone was suggesting FANTASY poker and FANTASY blackjack online-
So Wizard, still no basic strategy for strip poker huh?
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 214
  • Posts: 5772
September 28th, 2015 at 1:24:09 PM permalink
Poker has a long history in California, and was allowed while other games were prohibited because games that use cards are considered games of "skill". I think it also helped that many legislators and judges enjoyed playing poker in the backrooms of the capitol.
Other games, like roulette or craps, are outlawed because they don't use cards and are house banked.
Voice of the Announcer: Meanwhile, at an abandoned gold mine, a sinister figure lurks. Snidley Whiplash: I love to lurk. It's so me
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
  • Threads: 78
  • Posts: 3398
September 28th, 2015 at 4:47:06 PM permalink
Quote: Wonko33

Quote: ThatDonGuy

My best guess is, it has something to do with something in the California Constitution, Article 4, Section 19(e):
"The Legislature has no power to authorize, and shall prohibit, casinos of the type currently operating in Nevada and New Jersey."
("Currently" refers to 1984, when California's voters first authorized a state lottery.)

Note that the tribal casinos couldn't open sports books even if they wanted to (and the state authorized it); that's a Federal ban.



but you can do Draftkings and Fanduel (both still illegal in stupid WA state) because it is FANTASY football, I don't remember where but someone was suggesting FANTASY poker and FANTASY blackjack online-


There probably already is "fantasy poker," along of the lines of how well players do in the WSOP.

As for why fantasy sports aren't considered gambling; well, they are considered gambling, but since you're betting on individuals rather than teams, and you can includes players from different teams on your fantasy team, somebody is under the impression that it's far less likely that one or more players will be paid off to modify the result. Yes, most fantasy football leagues use a team's statistics for defense, and in fact, I wonder why the federal government doesn't consider that illegal.
Wonko33
Wonko33
Joined: Aug 29, 2015
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 122
September 28th, 2015 at 6:02:33 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy
There probably already is "fantasy poker," along of the lines of how well players do in the WSOP.

As for why fantasy sports aren't considered gambling; well, they are considered gambling, but since you're betting on individuals rather than teams, and you can includes players from different teams on your fantasy team, somebody is under the impression that it's far less likely that one or more players will be paid off to modify the result. Yes, most fantasy football leagues use a team's statistics for defense, and in fact, I wonder why the federal government doesn't consider that illegal.[/q



Yes let's protect the integrity of a game but do nothing about millions spent influencing votes in the Capitol, people would probably freak out more if American Idol voting was rigged than to what goes on everyday with our politicians lol.

So Wizard, still no basic strategy for strip poker huh?
gaminglaw
gaminglaw
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 2
October 31st, 2015 at 8:22:40 PM permalink
Please understand the new compacts state the there in nothing to presume the right to offer the game KNOWN AS ROULETTE, even when played with cards. The dominant roulette card style table game in California is Mystery Card Roulette (MCR). It is not the game known as roulette dealt with cards. To be the game known as roulette, you would have to have a ball and wheel. MCR uses a patented shuffler that contains 38 custom cards. There is no ball and no wheel. The only tribal casinos that fall under this definition would be Barona, Pala and Cache Creek as they use a wheel, ball and cards. Casinos that have signed this compact have no intention of giving up a great profit maker for their bottom line. When the state restricted Roulette and Dice in their constitution, it was not the play of the game, it was the point generation device. Customers were being ripped off by gaffed wheels and shaved and loaded dice. There are no statutes in California that even even say what roulette is or even what a card game is, This presents a major problem for the gaming authorities as they have made rulings without supporting law. In order for Roulette wheels and dice to become legal, there would need to be a constitutional amendment which requires a 2/3 vote by the people. The tribes have tried twice and lost big time. The majority of folks in California do not want expanded gaming and their feelings about tribal gaming has changed dramatically. The biggest problem facing this casino is that they have created a dealer supported slot machine by using the RNG instead of cards. Under the compact they are required to pay a license fee to the state for each seat on this game. The casinos currently pay zero fees to the state on card games. He should have kept it a card game. Creating a new game that has legs is a very difficult thing to do. Most casinos won't even give them a try. The fortunate thing in this case is that the GM created the game so his got at least a shot.
gaminglaw
gaminglaw
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 2
October 31st, 2015 at 8:31:10 PM permalink
Please be advised that Craps is not a prohibited game under the Penal Code. Dice are, but other versions of point generation in the play of the game such as cards or bingo balls are good to go. Cardrooms in CA can offer Card Craps to their customers.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
  • Threads: 78
  • Posts: 3398
November 1st, 2015 at 9:05:30 AM permalink
Quote: gaminglaw

Please understand the new compacts state the there in nothing to presume the right to offer the game KNOWN AS ROULETTE, even when played with cards. The dominant roulette card style table game in California is Mystery Card Roulette (MCR). It is not the game known as roulette dealt with cards. To be the game known as roulette, you would have to have a ball and wheel. MCR uses a patented shuffler that contains 38 custom cards. There is no ball and no wheel. The only tribal casinos that fall under this definition would be Barona, Pala and Cache Creek as they use a wheel, ball and cards.

I don't know about the other two, but Cache Creek has one of the older compacts where the bans on roulette and dice don't exist.

Quote: gaminglaw

When the state restricted Roulette and Dice in their constitution, it was not the play of the game, it was the point generation device.

Okay, I'll ask: exactly where in California's Constitution (as opposed to, say, the state Penal Code) do the words "roulette" or "dice" even exist? The closest thing I can find is the ban on Nevada/New Jersey-type casinos I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Quote: gaminglaw

In order for Roulette wheels and dice to become legal, there would need to be a constitutional amendment which requires a 2/3 vote by the people.

Excuse me? Even if it required a Constitutional amendment, that only needs a majority vote of the people - according to Article XVIII, Section 4 of the California State Constitution:

A proposed amendment or revision shall be submitted to the electors and if approved by a majority of votes thereon takes effect the day after the election unless the measure provides otherwise.

Quote: gaminglaw

The tribes have tried twice and lost big time.

I'm familiar with the most recent one (remember, I live in California - either that, or the Franchise Tax Board owes me all of that money I have been paying it for the past 30-plus years - so I get to see any statewide initiative), where a tribe wanted to have gaming on an area that wasn't its own, but what was the other one?

  • Jump to: