Casino whistle blower gets fired over bad dice!

Quote: Ahigh

I don't have time. I am just too busy. Maybe I'll see you at G2E. But I can't do anything with this except provide facts on here. I'm not seeking, nor was I ever seeking, monetary compensation for whatever the heck is going on over there. I will just stop going like the agent advised me.

Ahigh, help me understand in my autistic mind. You are too busy for a 2 minute phone call to supplement a claim and you are going to allow a state gaming agent to tell you where to play even though the casino was at fault in violating the "ethics" you seek in the gaming industry.

Are you sure you are from the "Remember the Alamo" state where quitting on principles is sacrilegious.

So basically when "DI" doesn't work which we know doesn't, they cry foul, tell bad jokes and make claims of "biased dice". Pathetic!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So basically when "DI" doesn't work which we know doesn't, they cry foul, tell bad jokes and make claims of "biased dice". Pathetic!

Ibeatyouraces, no it's pathetic to come to that conclusion. You can win with biased dice, but that is not the point. You need to read Ahigh posts again s l o w e r.

Quote: Bohemian

Ibeatyouraces, no it's pathetic to come to that conclusion. You can win with biased dice, but that is not the point. You need to read Ahigh posts again s l o w e r.

I read it and it's always the same. "I lost, must be biased dice." Or it's, "I won, I'm a great DI." Like I said, pathetic!

Not really.

Ahigh wanted to believe in DI enough to develop a methodology to determine, via testing, whether it can lead to AP.

It seems the answer is either "No" or "inconclusive."

To Ahigh's credit he is NOT riding on the DI wagon.

As for whether dice can have enough defects so as to be significantly biased: he thought he saw something, and he followed up on it..

More than most of us would have done, that's for sure.

Right or wrong, the guy's heart seems to be in the right place, i.e. his actions are in service of the game.

Quote: MrV

Just tell this guy you had an "autistic moment," (or some other condition which causes people to blurt out inappropriate comments) apologize publicly, then offer to buy him a beer.

That would only work if he were genuinely offended.

There's a realistic probability that the whole thing was just him using his knowledge to get me out of the casino by contriving such a scenario. It was pretty obvious the guy wasn't listening and was only, as far as I could see, pretending to be offended. But he sold Veronica and his boss if he was acting. I would not have been able to do anything. They took his word over mine is the bottom line. I was calm the whole time. He was emotional, but only after the complaint. He did not respond at all when I made the comment. That was the only unusual thing that I noticed.

I know you're probably just saying this as a joke, but to me it was not a joke at all to be asked to leave when I wanted to bet big and play! I was not happy!

Quote: MrV

Not really.

Ahigh wanted to believe in DI enough to develop a methodology to determine, via testing, whether it can lead to AP.

It seems the answer is either "No" or "inconclusive."

To Ahigh's credit he is NOT riding on the DI wagon.

As for whether dice can have enough defects so as to be significantly biased: he thought he saw something, and he followed up on it..

More than most of us would have done, that's for sure.

Right or wrong, the guy's heart seems to be in the right place, i.e. his actions are in service of the game.

Whoooaaa. I had to quote that one. Thanks.

Quote: MrV

As for whether dice can have enough defects so as to be significantly biased: he thought he saw something, and he followed up on it..

More than most of us would have done, that's for sure.

And more than most of us actually have done, notably the biased-dice conspiracy theorists who anonymously complain about how terribly unfair gaming equipment is everywhere but then do absolutely nothing about it except post the same quotes over and over again from their own website. Choose to act or choose to stay out of it, but either way stop complaining.

Quote: Bohemian

Ahigh, maybe clarification is needed if you are willing to share. If you filed a claim with the NGC, will you receive an answer in the mail as to whether the NGC determined that the dice in play were fair or not?

Sorry that I missed this question. No is the answer.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So basically when "DI" doesn't work which we know doesn't, they cry foul, tell bad jokes and make claims of "biased dice". Pathetic!

People are just that way. It's not just DI's. Everybody does this nonsense unless you consciously work to override it.

I won? I'm smart.
I lost? Who's fault because I know it's not mine!

JMO.

Quote: MathExtremist

Choose to act or choose to stay out of it, but either way stop complaining.

Whining seems to be the mode of the day. Straight from the top and from many of those aspiring to that exalted position.

Quote: Ahigh

This call was placed from the parking lot of the casino on the east side just outside of the sports book and continued on my bluetooth interface from my Honda Civic while I drove..

Thanks for the details and some reality to the pitfalls of life in Las Vegas as a gambler.

I'm curious for some reason. At some point you showed us your Jaguar with custom tag. Now you are driving a Honda Civic? Did you "lose" the Jaguar or trade it in or sell it or just have more than one car available to you? Kind regards.

Quote: NokTang

Thanks for the details and some reality to the pitfalls of life in Las Vegas as a gambler.

I'm curious for some reason. At some point you showed us your Jaguar with custom tag. Now you are driving a Honda Civic? Did you "lose" the Jaguar or trade it in or sell it or just have more than one car available to you? Kind regards.

Civic is an upgrade. I Love it -- sold not one but two jags to get the civic. No regrets.

Quote: NokTang

Thanks for the details and some reality to the pitfalls of life in Las Vegas as a gambler.

I'm curious for some reason. At some point you showed us your Jaguar with custom tag. Now you are driving a Honda Civic? Did you "lose" the Jaguar or trade it in or sell it or just have more than one car available to you? Kind regards.

What does what Ahigh is now driving has to do with anything. He is one of the smartest guys you will every meet. The guy can drive anything that he wants too.

While all of the guys on this boards was making fun of him and his pinball machine, he was developing skill base games for the casinos. Now here in Nevada they changed the laws so there will be skilled base games in the casinos.

I was shocked when I read Ahighs post about what happened to him, after all he does work in the casino industry. I think that he could be putting his job on the line because he wants to see fair gaming in Nevada. That is how the whole thing about the bad dice started. Harley wanted the same thing and put out what he was seeing in the casinos out here with what we were calling bad dice. The DI schools picked up on it and said that Harley was saying the dice were loaded, which he never said.

All he said was the dice were not balanced and that it in affected the outcomes he was seeing!

Now along comes Ahigh which is not the first person that has filed a complaint with gaming in different states about the bad dice. Basically, all those complaints were swept under the table, therefore protecting the casinos, not players!

The same thing can be said blackjack, where nowadays they have continuous shuffle machines and the lousy six to five pay out. You're hard-pressed to find a single deck game anywhere!

The casino industry is on a downward spiral because of greed, they want casinos on every street, in every state. They are still building mega-casinos and making the gambling pay off big time for them, with lousy paybacks on any game you play in a casino.

Any time I visit the casinos I can't get to the craps tables. Even if they said that the dice is crooked, all players are dumb heads, it won't change a thing. Gamblers are absolutely sure that they can beat the game. Someone complains about something, they shrug it off, either you play like the rest of the world or if you get a bit skeptical simply stop gambling, complaining is the same as talking to a wall.

I have been asked by top-level operators, "you posted to the internet about <your opinion on a specific matter>?" This person, there is no way you could find out what they look like online, and they would not DARE to risk their position at <insert big casino operator> to state an opinion on the internet. Even without bringing up his name, I risk being unable to do business for fear of breach of confidentiality. It's even possible that this same person is the person that I thought was Zcore.

The question was asked as they were trying to determine if there were any holes in our math model that could expose them to losses.

The same person also asked me, "are you a player's advocate?" This question was particularly damning, actually. The implication is that you have to choose whether to advocate for the operator or for the player but not both. IE: pick a side!

The perception that I am a player's advocate, whether it is right, wrong, or indifferent is a HURDLE that I have to deal with in talking with operators. My reputation from this forum, and from goodshooter.com, and my reputation with NanoTech and David Foley, as well as my stance on supporting medical marijuana as a way to increase revenues for our industry here locally are all sort of positions that are not straightforward for operators to consider whether or not they want to be associated with these positions.

At a recent AGEM meeting, I made a bold statement regarding skill based gambling. And let me reiterate it for the players here and right now.

The AGEM press release specifically did not mention over 100% payback being a possibility. I attacked the head of the AGEM in public at the last AGEM meeting. His name is Marcus Prater. He said that the law enables over 100% payback. I agreed, but I said I am saying that YOU Marcus Prater could have stepped up and mentioned the over 100% in your press release, but you didn't.

He represents us (we pay dues) and he also represents the other gaming manufacturers (although they carry a lot more weight, obviously, in what Marcus says than what we think). But all of these manufacturers seems to NOT GET IT when it comes to what I call "monetization of skill."

I made the point that, "until you offer over 100% payback on the resolution of a wager based on skill, you have not changed the value-proposition to the player one single bit." I continued on and said, "if you present me as a player with a skill based game and I can't get over 100% payback, I'm still going to play full pay deuces wild or whatever other game that I am playing right now."

I have harped on this point and pounded the floor. At the last meeting, many were shocked when I used the word "motherfucker" which I can't even use here (apologies in advance). I was quoting a friend who recently said, "using the word advantage play to an operator is like using the word motherfucker." Mods, please allow for an exception to the rule in this case, as I used this word to make the point: nobody in the industry wants to TOUCH a game that offers AP because they need to grow some balls and stop worrying about their 9 to 5 and start worrying about the industry as a whole.

Our mission statement is simple: in a word, FAIR!

The problem with the industry is that the player have been trained that gambling on video products isn't fair. Especially the newest ones with the most electronics and lights and expensive, let us say, "extras" to entice you but don't add value, long term, to the experience for the player.

I recently heard from another in the industry, and I am sure that many know, Caesar's refused to buy machines that could not be set below 85% payback. They simply used their size to bully the manufacturers to create games that could be adjusted to the point where they really diminish the value proposition of gambling a great deal! That diminished values tend to stick with people who get burned badly and learn after the fact the reality of the hold percentages and how they work so quickly when adjusted to such aggressive settings.

The Wizard also has opinions about these lack of transparency issues. But Caesar's isn't just hurting themselves by cranking the paybacks up beyond the average for Clark County. They are hurting everyone who fails to disclose paybacks, basically. Because there is a feedback loop on how likely you are to win playing slots for the entirety of Las Vegas, for people who don't already know that Caesar's paybacks are the worst, that feedback loop hurts EVERY GAME THAT DOES NOT DISCLOSE A PAYBACK. Not just the ones at Caesar's.

Caesar's, one could argue, is just taking a bigger piece of the pie by taking advantage of other operators who keep less of the player's money who doesn't know the difference (there are many).

After making this point, there was a PR about slot hold percentages and the potential long term damage on the industry as a result of cranking them up too high for the overall health of the industry. And I was very happy about that.

But I get really angry at both players and casinos when they start acting retarded.

OF COURSE WE WANT FAIR GAMES. IT IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS.

AND OF COURSE WE WANT TO ENABLE PLAYERS TO WIN. IF THERE ARE ZERO WINNERS THERE ARE ZERO CUSTOMERS.

It's almost as if the casino industry sees the problem to reduced revenue is that someone SOMEWHERE is still able to come out ahead after playing for a lifetime and that needs to be fixed so that they get the money instead of the player in every single instance of every single case.

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/association-gaming-equipment-manufacturers-agem-issues-comprehensive-report-on-slot-2049016.htm

I believe it was a coincidence, but I was very proud of Marcus to have soon after my comments released this, which is a statement from the manufacturers to the casinos about hold percentages and how that, for the entirety of the industry, it does not generate more revenue.

One could make the point that until the problem is fixed or the system suffers a systemic failure larger than the one that caused me and others in the industry to lose their jobs, have to move, relocate, or whatever else, we will continue to see a shrinking market.

This happened between 1984 and 1989 in the coin-operated video game market. In the late 70's you had asteroids, and in the 80's you had defender and pac-man and donkey kong. These games monetized skill. Most people had a game time of 20 seconds. Some people could play for 20 minutes! But the 20 minute game times did not inflate the average game time all that much. That's what made the game a success. The WINNERS were the ones who could play the game as long as they wanted.

But I remember one person working at Stop-N-Go who shared half the profits with the route operator, talking to the operator about how that the game would make more money if I wasn't playing it all day long and showing off. The game, as she argued, would make a lot more money if it were made to be harder.

So they did insert a speedup chip to make the game harder. I don't know if it's related, but the game was taken out not long after that.

You can look at the production numbers for asteroids and defender and compare them to games that later did not monetize skill, and there was a similar disconnect between people that failed to understand how the average game time is important and the game being fun (IE: beatable if you are any good) is what made them awesome.

Many people never put two and two together because they weren't the ones that learned how to play the game as long as they wanted.

But just clobbering the one successful player might seem like the way to make more money.

If you're stupid anyway.

IMO.

Quote: Dicenor33

Any time I visit the casinos I can't get to the craps tables. Even if they said that the dice is crooked, all players are dumb heads, it won't change a thing. Gamblers are absolutely sure that they can beat the game. Someone complains about something, they shrug it off, either you play like the rest of the world or if you get a bit skeptical simply stop gambling, complaining is the same as talking to a wall.

The casino doesn't care (or shouldn't) how dumb or smart or how skilled or unskilled the players are.

They should care how much money they make after the cover their overhead.

If you tell me that they have the maximum number of craps tables allowed by local law and everyone is betting the maximum bet allowed by law and they are fully at capacity constraints and can't legally make more money, that is one case.

If you're saying everyone is crowded in for a $3 game, I can show you a crowded craps table at the Jokers' Wild almost every single minute they are in operation. But few other casinos are going to $1 with 10x odds just because they can pack a table.

It's about the revenue.

Those tables that you "can't get to" try this. Call ahead and say you want to do a $9999 buy-in and max bet with max odds. See if they can have a table ready for you.

Those people you're talking about might not be any more important to the bottom line that the people in line at the StarBucks that is owned by someone besides the casino.

Just having a bunch of people doesn't mean you're making a bunch of money. You have to pay a crew and it can be tough just coming out ahead on a dice table if you're only making $500,000 per year or less for the casino from the table before overhead.

Here in Vegas, the average table makes $1,000,000 per year, but I believe this includes tables that are not frequently operated. I expect that craps tables anywhere besides Vegas make about that much but some probably struggle to be profitable and are operated just to have the look-and-feel of a real casino with real winners with a real chance to win (maybe the only one in the place!) Just for the ambience basically. A loss leader.

Besides craps, most games just take your money. And the less intelligent you are the faster it takes it. There is conventional wisdom that this is "how it works."

We disagree with that. Our long term vision includes much more transparency on payback and on how your skill affects your EV when your wager is resolved.

Quote: Ahigh

This happened between 1984 and 1989 in the coin-operated video game market. In the late 70's you had asteroids, and in the 80's you had defender and pac-man and donkey kong. These games monetized skill. Most people had a game time of 20 seconds. Some people could play for 20 minutes! But the 20 minute game times did not inflate the average game time all that much. That's what made the game a success. The WINNERS were the ones who could play the game as long as they wanted.

Let's be clear, though -- those games did not monetize based on skill, they monetized based on the *pursuit* of skill. The fixed cost per game bought you a variable game time that increased with skill (and some luck). As players got better, average game time increased and revenue per machine-hour dropped. It had to, for two reasons: one was the better players are increasing the average time between purchase, and two is the worse players didn't get a chance to get better (or were so much worse that they stopped bothering).

So I don't think that's an appropriate model to try to bet on. It should be amply evident that a game where the player can spend a dollar and guarantee a return of more than a dollar if they have learned to "play the game as long as they want" is an unsustainable product from an operations standpoint. You'll be forced to offer it with de minimus bet limits, like 25c FPDW, and you won't be able to rely on the video arcade protocol of lining up quarters on the lip of the console. If someone is a +EV player of such a casino game, they'll sit there all day long draining the operator's revenue. (And then nobody else will get to play, demand will dry up, etc. Same thing that happened to accumulator slots in the late 90s.)

Remember that the target demo you're going after is exactly the sort of player who would want to bet $10 at a time for 3 minutes of entertainment rather than 25c at a time for 5 seconds. The same player who drops $500 on a bottle of vodka in a nightclub and then walks right past the slots on the way to the limo. I want *their* wallet share.

Quote: MathExtremist

Let's be clear, though -- those games did not monetize based on skill, they monetized based on the *pursuit* of skill. The fixed cost per game bought you a variable game time that increased with skill (and some luck). As players got better, average game time increased and revenue per machine-hour dropped. It had to, for two reasons: one was the better players are increasing the average time between purchase, and two is the worse players didn't get a chance to get better (or were so much worse that they stopped bothering).

So I don't think that's an appropriate model to try to bet on. It should be amply evident that a game where the player can spend a dollar and guarantee a return of more than a dollar if they have learned to "play the game as long as they want" is an unsustainable product from an operations standpoint. You'll be forced to offer it with de minimus bet limits, like 25c FPDW, and you won't be able to rely on the video arcade protocol of lining up quarters on the lip of the console. If someone is a +EV player of such a casino game, they'll sit there all day long draining the operator's revenue. (And then nobody else will get to play, demand will dry up, etc. Same thing that happened to accumulator slots in the late 90s.)

Remember that the target demo you're going after is exactly the sort of player who would want to bet $10 at a time for 3 minutes of entertainment rather than 25c at a time for 5 seconds. The same player who drops $500 on a bottle of vodka in a nightclub and then walks right past the slots on the way to the limo. I want *their* wallet share.

Hey, ME, thanks for the comments first off.

They did monetize based on skill and this isn't my opinion, Eugene Jarvis, the creator of defender, that sold over 70,000 units stated this explicitly and I agree with him. You have to assume that a minute of play table has a monetary value, but you come out ahead if you have skill and want to play video games pretty easily just assuming that the value is there to being with in the play time.

Eugene talks about this too. It was well known in pinball that you could pop free games (more than one) and sell them to the person behind you for a profit.

I am on the way out, but if you want to watch this video, I encourage you to. Most people don't have the time. But I know and consider all three of these guys friends of mine, and I've run into them through my career on multiple occasions. I was even offered the lead position on Fast and Furious Coin-op in summer of 2003 from Eugene (at Raw Thrills). I decided to work at Naughty Dog instead, and it was Mark Cerney who gave a good referral to me after he spoke with me about working at Insomniac.



Your other points are, I believe, maybe making too many assumptions. All that we're saying is that the game has to enable the player to turn performances into something that affects the wager in a way that they can understand how it is affecting the wager.

If after they understand, they also understand that they average payback they are getting is 98% or worse, they are obviously going to play a better game where skill does not hurt them and they always get the better payback. That's all I'm asserting.

HOW you monetize skill -- there are many ways. But the fact that nobody seems to understand that just slapping a video game experience in TANDEM to a gambling experience where the skill of the video game doesn't make any difference to the value proposition, I think that is WRONG and that time will bear out what I think. I have been creating software for video games for 30 years now, and to me, this is not really a question at all.

Illusion of skill is what it is, and it will always be there. But just CALLING it skill based gambling does mean that anyone is going to be fooled if it's really not (from OUR definition of what skill based gambling is).

Here, at Washington square in the city, we have people playing chess for $2 a pop. A friend of mine, chess grand master, beat a crap out of all other players, it did not took long for anyone to stop playing with my friend. APs will destroy the casino industry if games were even. "We are in entertainment business, you pay for the show and time well spent", casinos' mantra. If someone thinks he can beat the casino he is fooling himself, it's his problem,he or she have been warned that you can not win in a long run. Monetizing the games will completely change things, no longer people will seek entertainment, but rather a source of income, as with the stock markets you'll have brokers selling their services, the place will attract criminals, almost like poker rooms now days.

Ahigh, I wanted to say thank you for the work and effort you are putting in by trying to keep the dream of Vegas visitors alive. So long as we the visitor think we have a fair chance at gaming/gambling we will keep coming back. If Vegas comes to a point where all we do is visit and never get a fair chance, that maybe, maybe we might win a little bit or all of our friends come back from their Vegas trip and only talk of losses and never one speak of an exciting win, well then the dream dies and then there is no desire to return and give the dream a shot. Then Vegas dies.

As long as it appears fresh, vibrant, and a fair chance, then Vegas will still offer a hope to it's visitors that maybe the next throw of the dice or the next push of a button could change my life.

Thank you.

Quote: mason2386

Ahigh, I wanted to say thank you for the work and effort you are putting in by trying to keep the dream of Vegas visitors alive. So long as we the visitor think we have a fair chance at gaming/gambling we will keep coming back. If Vegas comes to a point where all we do is visit and never get a fair chance, that maybe, maybe we might win a little bit or all of our friends come back from their Vegas trip and only talk of losses and never one speak of an exciting win, well then the dream dies and then there is no desire to return and give the dream a shot. Then Vegas dies.

As long as it appears fresh, vibrant, and a fair chance, then Vegas will still offer a hope to it's visitors that maybe the next throw of the dice or the next push of a button could change my life.

Thank you.

I guess that if it's fair play for MathExtremist, the guy who believes in fairness(?), to summarily call stuff gibberish, then I ought to reply in kind.

This above stuff is pure nonsense, simplistic, and grandiose. Not of any human thought process.

No wonder this place is just about dead.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

I guess that if it's fair play for MathExtremist, the guy who believes in fairness(?), to summarily call stuff gibberish, then I ought to reply in kind.

This above stuff is pure nonsense, simplistic, and grandiose. Not of any human thought process.

No wonder this place is just about dead.

Although you are right that the opinion you quoted is very simplistic and the idea of fair or even play at a casino is ridiculous, you're a little off on the site being dead. I see 200+ registered users listed every day. Probably another multiple dozen non registered users in addition? 10-15 new users daily (a few could be fake).

Back to the main point. 95% of Vegas visitors dont dream of fairplay. They dream of alchohol and fun. Casinos offer an experience. You don't get an opportunity to play an even game or a game you can have an advantage at if you want free/cheap rooms, free alchohol, comps, top notch facilities, quality service and amenities, free displays of tigers or fountains or pirate battles, etc. It just doesn't work like that. Some people that think they know about gaming and casinos have no clue because they are actually not in gaming or the casino business.

Some think they should have it all. They complain if their comp offers are down or if they don't get free rooms. Others complain about 6-5 blackjack. Others about the low wages of many off the casino employees.

The minute a 100%+ game can be mastered with skill is the minute players will learn to master it, monopolize it and murder it. Skill games can improve your odds of winning, but cannot give an advantage over the house.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Although you are right that the opinion you quoted is very simplistic and the idea of fair or even play at a casino is ridiculous, you're a little off on the site being dead.

Just about.

If I had a nickel from all the contrary people I told online that gambling isn't a profession, the ones who later dropped of the online radar in shame w/o so much as a, "Yeah, you were right," I'd be a nickelaire.

Quote: Zcore13

Although you are right that the opinion you quoted is very simplistic and the idea of fair or even play at a casino is ridiculous, you're a little off on the site being dead. I see 200+ registered users listed every day. Probably another multiple dozen non registered users in addition? 10-15 new users daily (a few could be fake)...

Don't forget all us invisible people. We don't count towards number of visitors or the ones currently logged in. Just look. I never log out and it doesn't count me. This is why the numbers look lower than they did before the upgrade.

Quote: superrick

What does what Ahigh is now driving has to do with anything. He is one of the smartest guys you will every meet. The guy can drive anything that he wants too.
.

What do you care? It was a polite question, he answered it, done. It's not as if it took a long time or should bother you. It took me longer to read your rant than his reply but I'm not complaining. I could have just skipped it. Grow up mate. He mentioned the Civic, had mentioned the Jag previously. No big deal. Get over it okay? Diba.(diba is tagalog for okay? got it??)

There is some truth here. I would say 90% of Vegas visitors are there for entertainment, drunkenness, and a bit of gambling as ZCore says. They don't care about whether a blackjack table is 6-5 or whether a slot game plays 85% or 115%. This comprises about 60% of the casino's revenue from gaming and this the standard slew of revenue that helps casinos with cash flow. WynnCore, Caesars, MGM, and Sands can work as a oligarchy on this and adjust their margins for these players by universally downgrading their games (like 3 Card, 6-5 blackjacks and now Odds).

There is probably another 9% who are degenerate gamblers (such as myself, at times) who just want to gamble in situations that are relatively fair and they bring in the other 40% of revenue. This revenue is quite variable to each casino company and represent opportunities for gravy -- the whales, the folks who abuse their credit card accounts, the addicts who just want to gamble until they inevitably lose everything, and so on. For the casino and the player, it is a game of loyalty. Something of a game of skill will be of appeal to these folks because they think they can beat the game and can acquire the skill to do so when in fact their addiction masks the reality that they don't have the brains to beat the game and instead pound their dollars into the machine in submission, giving up when they've drained their credit / daily limit / etc. I know it sounds sad but for hundreds of thousands of gambling addicts out there it is exactly their experience. It is this butter that casinos really market to.

And then there is the AP set which probably comprises the 1% -- the folks who are looking for hole cards, who change their gambling patterns to take advantage of an opportunity that they see, and so on. These are the folks the casino has to watch out for. I agree that an advantage player with the brains to beat a machine will master the skill and beat the machine, forcing the machine to be pulled.

Quote: boymimbo

.And then there is the AP set which probably comprises the 1%...

It's about 0.000001%

Casino success has nothing to do with fairness. If people who visit that particular casino can afford $25 craps game than the chances of success are pretty high. Sands Pa, Borgata, Rivers Chicago are great examples.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

Just about.

If I had a nickel from all the contrary people I told online that gambling isn't a profession, the ones who later dropped of the online radar in shame w/o so much as a, "Yeah, you were right," I'd be a nickelaire.

If I had a nickels for every negative/ derogatory post you have made, I'd be a nickelaire. What's up with that?

Gambling it's not right profession for everyone, just like many other professions are not suitable for certain people. It's obviously harder to be successful gambling for a living than most other professions(thank god for that).

Quote: Zcore13

The minute a 100%+ game can be mastered with skill is the minute players will learn to master it, monopolize it and murder it. Skill games can improve your odds of winning, but cannot give an advantage over the house.

Even Vegas 2047? Please continue how.

Quote: Ahigh

Even Vegas 2047? Please continue how.

Isn't it true that if only highly skilled players play Vegas 2047, it becomes not a >100% game? You obviously won't convince a casino to put in a consistently beatable game at high stakes, and I don't think you want to relegate your product to the fate of FPDW -- only a handful of units at low stakes. It's basically as a loss leader with a quantifiable maximum daily loss. That's not what you want for your game.

Quote: boymimbo

There is some truth here. I would say 90% of Vegas visitors are there for entertainment, drunkenness, and a bit of gambling as ZCore says. They don't care about whether a blackjack table is 6-5 or whether a slot game plays 85% or 115%. This comprises about 60% of the casino's revenue from gaming and this the standard slew of revenue that helps casinos with cash flow. WynnCore, Caesars, MGM, and Sands can work as a oligarchy on this and adjust their margins for these players by universally downgrading their games (like 3 Card, 6-5 blackjacks and now Odds).

There is probably another 9% who are degenerate gamblers (such as myself, at times) who just want to gamble in situations that are relatively fair and they bring in the other 40% of revenue. This revenue is quite variable to each casino company and represent opportunities for gravy -- the whales, the folks who abuse their credit card accounts, the addicts who just want to gamble until they inevitably lose everything, and so on. For the casino and the player, it is a game of loyalty. Something of a game of skill will be of appeal to these folks because they think they can beat the game and can acquire the skill to do so when in fact their addiction masks the reality that they don't have the brains to beat the game and instead pound their dollars into the machine in submission, giving up when they've drained their credit / daily limit / etc. I know it sounds sad but for hundreds of thousands of gambling addicts out there it is exactly their experience. It is this butter that casinos really market to.

And then there is the AP set which probably comprises the 1% -- the folks who are looking for hole cards, who change their gambling patterns to take advantage of an opportunity that they see, and so on. These are the folks the casino has to watch out for. I agree that an advantage player with the brains to beat a machine will master the skill and beat the machine, forcing the machine to be pulled.

Our approach considers them all. The tourist can leave the default setting of "skill does not affect the wager" and have plenty of fun playing pinball without reducing the value of their wager due to lack of skill.

The degenerate gambler can do as much work as they want to determine where they can get AP from their skill and when the best times to play. There's no limit to how much effort you can put into this game trying to determine the best possible way to ensure that you will win. You can put more time and effort into this game than craps. Making it a hobby for enthusiast is a goal. QR codes for performances you want to share all that crap.

And then the AP's, the serious hard-core AP's will likely find machines with $1,000 minimum bets or even higher. Keeping the toddlers out of the way enables the big money players to not have to wait for EV to build up to swoop down and scoop it up. Tighter competitions between smallers numbers of players with big bets will be the professional way to operate the game in the high limit rooms. $1,000 minimums will happen in my view. $100 is nothing for a real whale. Watching Phil lose $290,000 (working the comeout) in a single roll and he was still smiling and also seeing all the other people around him and the excitement, they can afford the 1% of betting $10,000 or more on average and there will be spectators.

We, seriously, offer something for everyone with our pinball game. We are doing other games that are a little more niche. But pretty much everyone still wants to think "mass market only" with video products. The thoughts that only products that have succeeded can be used to know what will succeed in the future is absolute hilarity (IE: innovation is not valuable).

The message will eventually be heard. Whether or not it is heard in smaller places that can't offer wagers over $300, I'm not sure. Will the game work at $1 per game minimum? Not if nobody ever bets more for a minute game with a legal edge less than 25%. We already know pinball costs more than $0.25 these days to operate, and certainly in a casino. But pretty much as soon as people get convinced that they can keep playing the game and continue to win, they will continue to play the game. The lucky that on another game decide that their luck is what made it happen may stop. If you realize it's your skill that made the difference you are more likely to keep playing!

Once the skill is identified people are going to share stories about how to be skillful in the game. How to beat the game. Nobody can predict all the things that will happen to get people to understand how the game works or how it can be beaten. But I can tell you one thing: not very many people have a good overall understanding of Vegas 2047 because they are too busy "explaining" how it won't work before they understand how our game works.

We just had Jim Barbee tell us that the game will work. And we've had others very close to Jim Barbee telling Jim he needs to come check out our game. Jim wanted to speak to Stephen after the last workshop, and he came by. I value his opinion probably more than anyone else because he's the guy who, probably, knows more about the chances of it getting approved by Nevada Gaming than anyone. He educated us about the laws that matter towards getting this into the casino, and he and others are extremely supportive about doing what needs to be done to get this product and future products like this out to the casino to generate more revenue for the State of Nevada.

It's only a start, but if we're right, and we get the earnings to prove it, THEN, after the numbers are seen, there will be a discussion where we won't be talking about if it will work. We might talk about if it will work where bigger bets can't be placed. Or will it work where a player can't win as much as they can win at a craps table and walk away without having to fill out IRS paperwork.

But we won't be having these conversations where people say, "it will never work." Or conversations where people says "it's (all) about the mass market of gamblng." That mass market is deteriorating. That's what's been going on for five years since I have been here. These manufacturers are very cash rich, but even that doesn't float you out forever. They are merging and consolidating for a reason. And it's not because they know how to do skill-based gambling and the only reason it failed is because it will never work (I've heard this plenty of times).

I just haven't seen anything from anyone else that will work. That's all. At G2E, who knows, maybe Scientific Gaming will surprise me. Maybe Bally? Maybe, who is it now, Spielo, or is it IGT? I don't even know. MGAM seems to understand more about skill than anyone. Their plinko-inspired game with perception of skill went a LONG way towards making it look like you could have some skill without actually giving it to you.

We're going to be the first to give it to you, though. And in a way that can't hurt the casino's bottom line any more than any other slot with the same house edge setting as what you set our game to.

"perfect" cubes, perfect dice is an "impossibility" (interestingly a while back i heard an "expert" on public radio assert this very thing: saying that "perfection" has not happened, nor like will happen, in human manufacture--in fairness he did stop just oh-ever-so-short of asserting complete impossibility but did, as i said, assert that it hasnt happened yet and he "believes" will not happen)

accepting this then, that no casino dice are in fact, perfect cubes, the question becomes do the casinos-or some casinos-intentionally put out imperfect dice in a way that is to their advantage...if so, it is egregious, immoral and hopefully illegal...if not, then the imperfection is equally likely to benefit the player as it is the casino, that is if there is any "benefit" at all, which is not likely...my opinion leans toward the latter case, but i don't know....

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Quote: betwthelines

"perfect" cubes, perfect dice is an "impossibility" (interestingly a while back i heard an "expert" on public radio assert this very thing: saying that "perfection" has not happened, nor like will happen, in human manufacture--in fairness he did stop just oh-ever-so-short of asserting complete impossibility but did, as i said, assert that it hasnt happened yet and he "believes" will not happen)

accepting this then, that no casino dice are in fact, perfect cubes, the question becomes do the casinos-or some casinos-intentionally put out imperfect dice in a way that is to their advantage...if so, it is egregious, immoral and hopefully illegal...if not, then the imperfection is equally likely to benefit the player as it is the casino, that is if there is any "benefit" at all, which is not likely...my opinion leans toward the latter case, but i don't know....

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Two independent things at hand here. If putting she tay dice in action is believed to increase holds, will the she tay dice be put into action and holds monitored?

My opinion: VERY LIKELY. Will this work at the Wynn? Probably not. Will it work at Fiesta Henderson? Probably. Just IMO.

The other question: would a MANUFACTURER try to make their dice more popular (using a phrase like "YOUR PARTNER (helping you increase holds) IN THE PIT" to imply they help you make more money with THEIR products) by doing a tremendous amount of private research into how to fill each pip with the right thing to enable the dice to increase your holds under different conditions?

VERY UNLIKELY. The reason I think that this is very unlikely is because I don't think anybody spends that much time on dice. I honestly don't. You can look at GPIC and see what the maker of Paulson dice is worth (75M at time of writing). Phil Ivey is worth more than a popular maker of dice favored by big-money casinos that like larger holds on craps (EG: Cosmo had 12 pays double for a while and used these dice). Other dice manufacturers too. Just my gut knowing a couple of people that work for GPIC, but I don't see it being a risk they would be willing to take. I spent a couple thousand bucks and I learned some stuff. But I also learned that it's pretty difficult for me to imagine that ANYBODY would try to squeeze just a couple percentages out of dice at such a great risk (to lose it all) if their research was discovered for how to increase holds on the average craps wager on their stick of dice.

ME and I both know that you can increase holds with PC dice without too much risk for getting the casino hurt. But that's theory. The numbers are just too small to motivate anyone to do that (in my opinion).

But the THEORY holds water. It does.

I personally think that craps, for many small casinos, is just a game that generates noise and excitement to make a casino feel like a place where you can win. That's why the casinos have it. Then they still have to monitor the few guys who bet max odds if their exposure is up there and if someone starts winning, people who up and influence the game to some degree to help prevent the exposure from getting out of control.

For the most part, they don't worry too much. But there is REAL EXPOSURE from a 10x craps table. It does need to be monitored. But I don't think anybody should want she tay dice on their felt. That's just my opinion. And when a place like Westgate isn't THINKING about their exposure on the craps table, it makes me wonder about stuff like this.

I know that *I* would be concerned if I was responsible for that pit knowing we had dice on a table for a week instead of a day or less.

In general, I don't believe that places are doing this sort of thing. I think a fresh dice come out any time there is doubt, and there's a dice change (to a brand new stick -- not a known PC old stick) at least every 24 hours in every place that I know of with $1,000 max pass line bets or higher.

Really simple my view on the subject. Even places that get good holds on a stick and keep them in play (I do think this happens) it's just luck for them. If it does work, that extra hold could turn to a dump in ten minutes.

Quote: Ahigh

Even Vegas 2047? Please continue how.

Don't answer, Zcore. Remember, he never reads our posts.

Quote: Ahigh

...I personally think that craps, for many small casinos, is just a game that generates noise and excitement to make a casino feel like a place where you can win. That's why the casinos have it...

o my...i could not disagree more with this...

Quote: Ahigh

...Then they still have to monitor the few guys who bet max odds if their exposure is up there and if someone starts winning, people who up and influence the game to some degree to help prevent the exposure from getting out of control...For the most part, they don't worry too much. But there is REAL EXPOSURE from a 10x craps table. It does need to be monitored...

i play alot at small places, joints that really do sweat the money...and believe me, they view their craps operation as nothing short of a license to print money...and it is...yes, there is exposure at a 10x odds table but its manifestation is rare...certainly it is "monitored" but i have yet to see any actual action taken in response...if their hold is negative more than one day a month, i would be surprised...the occasional huge daily loss needs to be---and is---shrugged off (well of course they are not thrilled with it!)...as for "influence", if they thought it a factor for one millisecond, they would not debate it but rather take immediate countermeasures (no setting, shoot from a cup, whatever)...

...try an experiment...go up to any table at random...either play or just observe or both for 2 hours...for ease of tracking, well, no, not that so much but rather to provide a larger sample, it should be a "relatively" not busy or at least fairly fast moving table...then track as best you can--it probably cant be completely accurate--the number of shooters that the casino loses money on...it is a small percentage: you will likely find that the casino makes money on virtually every shooter....keep track for eight hours and this will always be true...

as for the rest of your post, too much "inside baseball" for me and why i stated at the end of my initial foray into this subject, "i don't know"...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Quote: betwthelines

if they thought it a factor for one millisecond, they would not debate it but rather take immediate countermeasures

+100

Quote: betwthelines

o my...i could not disagree more with this...

i play alot at small places, joints that really do sweat the money...and believe me, they view their craps operation as nothing short of a license to print money...and it is
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

betwthelines, I concur. The average hold for craps is in the 14 to 16% range.

During Chinese New Year, we are accustomed to seeing less than fair dice at the Craps tables. And on cue:

Caesars Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 32.2 %

If Caesars can double their monthly profits from 16% to 32% -- which they did in 2/12, that is an extra $2 million profit a month just from Craps. That is significant in anyone's books.

Quote: Bohemian

Quote: betwthelines

o my...i could not disagree more with this...

i play alot at small places, joints that really do sweat the money...and believe me, they view their craps operation as nothing short of a license to print money...and it is
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

betwthelines, I concur. The average hold for craps is in the 14 to 16% range.

During Chinese New Year, we are accustomed to seeing less than fair dice at the Craps tables. And on cue:

Caesars Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 32.2 %

If Caesars can double their monthly profits from 16% to 32% -- which they did in 2/12, that is an extra $2 million profit a month just from Craps. That is significant in anyone's books.

Baseless accusations. Every month is not the same. Some can be way worse, some way better.

You'Re accosted to making stats fit your thermos when it works for you. Same as all DI's and conspiracy theorists.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Baseless accusations. Every month is not the same. Some can be way worse, some way better.

You'Re accosted to making stats fit your thermos when it works for you. Same as all DI's and conspiracy theorists.

ZCore13

ZCore13, once again you are a casino Suit with no idea what you are talking about:

John Scarne on page 135 in his book Scarne on Dice states:

Quote: John Scarne

“…I have standardized a percentage that each bank craps table is expected to earn over a month’s period. This earned percentage is based on my study of daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly financial records of bank craps tables in a number of major casinos in Nevada and the Caribbean for over 25 years. The study of these reports shows that the expected earned percentage at Bank Craps over a month’s period amounts to about 20% of the gross amount of chips purchased.

… in the long run, the 20 percent figure is the approximate hold percentage of each and every craps table that is run honestly both from the inside and the outside.”

Also, The UNLV Center for Gaming Research recently published a study by Dr. David G. Schwartz. Nevada Table Games: Historical Hold Variations, 2014:

Quote: Dr. David G. Schwartz, UNLV Center for Gaming Research

The following table shows the average, maximum, and minimum monthly hold percentages for the period January 2004 through August 2014 for:

Craps Monthly Statewide Hold Percentages, 2004-2014

Average – 13.08

High – 17.56
Low – 8.03
Variation – 9.53

"Any monthly result that deviates significantly from … 13.06% (Craps) will impact monthly gaming revenues in a way that may distort the true level of play."

Craps Annual Statewide Hold Percentages, 1992-2013

Average – 12.96

High – 13.72
Low – 11.55
Variation – 2.17

http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_table_hold.pdf

However, check out these tax returns hold percentages for the casinos that is extremely outside the accepted variations:

Quote:

Tropicana, NJ Craps hold for Jan, 2012 was 70.03%
Resorts Casino, NJ craps Win % for Sept, 2012 was 24.1%
Tropicana, NJ Craps win percentage for April, 2012 was 39.0 % according to their NJ tax return signed by Jeff Bohrer, Casino Controller.
Harrah's Resort Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 29.6 %

New Jersey used to report Craps gaming revenues much better than Nevada ever has, until December, 2013. Then we started getting reports that Caesars Atlantic City was using unbalanced dice more than just on occasional weekend shifts beginning with the 4th quarter of 2013 so we thought we would check their tax returns:

Quote:

Caesars Atlantic City Craps Win % for:
October, 2013 at 36.1 %
November, 2013 at 27.2 %
December, 2013 – NOT DISCLOSED
January, 2014, etc. – NOT DISCLOSED

Transparency is becoming non-existent. What is New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and company trying to hide. Makes you wonder "don't rule out malice."

Quote: Bohemian

ZCore13, once again you are a casino Suit with no idea what you are talking about:

John Scarne on page 135 in his book Scarne on Dice states:

Quote: John Scarne

“…I have standardized a percentage that each bank craps table is expected to earn over a month’s period. This earned percentage is based on my study of daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly financial records of bank craps tables in a number of major casinos in Nevada and the Caribbean for over 25 years. The study of these reports shows that the expected earned percentage at Bank Craps over a month’s period amounts to about 20% of the gross amount of chips purchased.

… in the long run, the 20 percent figure is the approximate hold percentage of each and every craps table that is run honestly both from the inside and the outside.”

Also, The UNLV Center for Gaming Research recently published a study by Dr. David G. Schwartz. Nevada Table Games: Historical Hold Variations, 2014:

Quote: Dr. David G. Schwartz, UNLV Center for Gaming Research

The following table shows the average, maximum, and minimum monthly hold percentages for the period January 2004 through August 2014 for:

Craps Monthly Statewide Hold Percentages, 2004-2014

Average – 13.08

High – 17.56
Low – 8.03
Variation – 9.53

"Any monthly result that deviates significantly from … 13.06% (Craps) will impact monthly gaming revenues in a way that may distort the true level of play."

Craps Annual Statewide Hold Percentages, 1992-2013

Average – 12.96

High – 13.72
Low – 11.55
Variation – 2.17

http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_table_hold.pdf

However, check out these tax returns hold percentages for the casinos that is extremely outside the accepted variations:

Quote:

Tropicana, NJ Craps hold for Jan, 2012 was 70.03%
Resorts Casino, NJ craps Win % for Sept, 2012 was 24.1%
Tropicana, NJ Craps win percentage for April, 2012 was 39.0 % according to their NJ tax return signed by Jeff Bohrer, Casino Controller.
Harrah's Resort Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 29.6 %

New Jersey used to report Craps gaming revenues much better than Nevada ever has, until December, 2013. Then we started getting reports that Caesars Atlantic City was using unbalanced dice more than just on occasional weekend shifts beginning with the 4th quarter of 2013 so we thought we would check their tax returns:

Quote:

Caesars Atlantic City Craps Win % for:
October, 2013 at 36.1 %
November, 2013 at 27.2 %
December, 2013 – NOT DISCLOSED
January, 2014, etc. – NOT DISCLOSED

Transparency is becoming non-existent. What is New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and company trying to hide. Makes you wonder "don't rule out malice."

It's obvious you have no clue that all of that means nothing.

What happens if they hold less than the norm for a month? Did they manipulate the dice in favor of the players that month?

What happens if the norm used to be just straight craps and there is now a new norm because higher house advantage side bets have been added?

What happens if less knowledgeable people are now playing craps because it's the cool thing to do and these new players play less optimal bets on the table because they have higher payouts.

Once again you throw things out there and have no proof or legitimate stats to prove anything. Why not bring stats for every year during Chinese new year to compare to the rest of the year, not just one year? Do some work if you're going to make claims.


ZCore13

Quote: Bohemian

betwthelines, I concur. The average hold for craps is in the 14 to 16% range.

During Chinese New Year, we are accustomed to seeing less than fair dice at the Craps tables. And on cue:

Caesars Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 32.2 %

If Caesars can double their monthly profits from 16% to 32% -- which they did in 2/12, that is an extra $2 million profit a month just from Craps. That is significant in anyone's books.

You aren't understanding casino accounting. "Win %" does not reflect revenue, it reflects something similar to profit margin (in GAAP terms) -- it's a ratio of two operational quantities. A company that doubles its profit margin does not necessarily make twice as much profit. A casino that doubles its win % does not necessarily make twice as much win in dollars. A casino that wins $1M on $10M in drop has a 10% win%. The same $1M win on $5M in drop is a 20% win%. But it's the same $1M win -- that is, the same gross revenue. All it takes for a casino's win% to shoot through the roof is one high roller going on tilt and losing his entire bankroll.

If you want to understand the dollars, look at the dollars. You won't be able to figure it out by looking at percentages alone, and it's a complete mistake to equate the two -- as you did when you erroneously assumed that doubling the win% from 16% to 32% necessarily meant that the casino doubled their revenues.

MathExtremist, so sorry, but your reading comprehension needs work. I never used the words "revenue" as you did in your post. I correctly said profits which you defined in your wasted post as "profit margin". Let's pick another month and run thru the numbers from a real world Tax return example:

Caesars AC Drop/Handle for June, 2012 - $12,986,012.
Normal Craps Hold at say 16% = $2,077,762.
vs.
Actual Craps Hold (Win %) at 37.6% = $4,883,034 (Win per Tax return)

That is an additional $2,805,272 cash "profit" for 1 month for 1 casino

That's cash to the rest of the world and my original post still stands correct proving your comprehension skills still need help.

This is not one high roller going on tilt but the use of Percentage dice (or unbalanced dice) where a higher percentage is raked in by the House over time. Therefore, a larger profit margin or higher Win percentage compared to normal.

Reference to actual signed tax return is at http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/Financials/MGR2012/201206revenue.pdf

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: Bohemian

betwthelines, I concur. The average hold for craps is in the 14 to 16% range.

During Chinese New Year, we are accustomed to seeing less than fair dice at the Craps tables. And on cue:

Caesars Atlantic City craps Win % for February, 2012 was 32.2 %

If Caesars can double their monthly profits from 16% to 32% -- which they did in 2/12, that is an extra $2 million profit a month just from Craps. That is significant in anyone's books.

You aren't understanding casino accounting. "Win %" does not reflect revenue, it reflects something similar to profit margin (in GAAP terms) -- it's a ratio of two operational quantities. A company that doubles its profit margin does not necessarily make twice as much profit. A casino that doubles its win % does not necessarily make twice as much win in dollars. A casino that wins $1M on $10M in drop has a 10% win%. The same $1M win on $5M in drop is a 20% win%. But it's the same $1M win -- that is, the same gross revenue. All it takes for a casino's win% to shoot through the roof is one high roller going on tilt and losing his entire bankroll.

If you want to understand the dollars, look at the dollars. You won't be able to figure it out by looking at percentages alone, and it's a complete mistake to equate the two -- as you did when you erroneously assumed that doubling the win% from 16% to 32% necessarily meant that the casino doubled their revenues.

Quote: Bohemian

MathExtremist, so sorry, but your reading comprehension needs work. I never used the words "revenue" as you did in your post. I correctly said profits

What you're calling profit is actually the dollar win or, in casino parlance, gaming revenue. You should know this, you linked to a revenue report. Did you actually read it?

Quote: Bohemian

"Any monthly result that deviates significantly from … 13.06% (Craps) will impact monthly gaming revenues in a way that may distort the true level of play."

First of all, Schwartz says it is 13.10%. Where you came up with your figure is another whole question.

Quote: Bohemian

Craps Annual Statewide Hold Percentages, 1992-2013
Average – 12.96
High – 13.72
Low – 11.55
Variation – 2.17
http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_table_hold.pdf

Schwartz's table includes 2014. Did you drop that number and recalculate the numbers to better your case?

At any rate, the far more interesting question deals with variations to the low side. How do you explain the single-digit holds for 8/09, 12/09, 6/10, 5/11 and, oh boy, 7/11?

Actually the hold rate in the 22 years trends down slightly, from 14+% to 13+%. A small increase in educated players, no doubt.

Quote: SanchoPanza

At any rate, the far more interesting question deals with variations to the low side. How do you explain the single-digit holds for 8/09, 12/09, 6/10, 5/11 and, oh boy, 7/11?

That's when he and his friends were plying their finely-honed dice influencing skills, obviously.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's when he and his friends were plying their finely-honed dice influencing skills, obviously.

And I was thinking that the dice had to be superbalanced to nanometers.

Quote: SanchoPanza

At any rate, the far more interesting question deals with variations to the low side. How do you explain the single-digit holds for 8/09, 12/09, 6/10, 5/11 and, oh boy, 7/11?

See, that's what I've been asking but he conveniently doesn't reply to that part of my posts. These must be months that they have to throw the public of the trail.

In all honesty, it just shows the agenda he has.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

In all honesty, it just shows the agenda he has.
ZCore13

He has had that agenda for many years, on many boards, and has been thrown off a few because of it.