Casino whistle blower gets fired over bad dice!

Quote: Ahigh

You respond to my posts with things.

My gosh, you live in a world other than mine.
You have been posting regularly for over a
month and I have not responded to a single
post of yours till now. You are off my radar
since you attached yourself to the pinball
fantasy. It's so boring, so not going to work,
so not anything that should be in a casino,
that I took pity on you. Always realize,
your little world revolves around you, the
rest of the world (us) do not.

Quote: EvenBob

My gosh, you live in a world other than mine.
You have been posting regularly for over a
month and I have not responded to a single
post of yours till now. You are off my radar
since you attached yourself to the pinball
fantasy. It's so boring, so not going to work,
so not anything that should be in a casino,
that I took pity on you. Always remember,
your little world revolves around you, the
rest of the world (us) do not.

Alright, I'll remember that, champion. Thanks for giving me that break, and it's too bad I missed out on joining the rest of the world that includes you instead of staying in the world that specifically EXCLUDES you because I don't see any value to what you say.

I do have you on ignore, so if you stop responding to my posts, I'm pretty sure we can coexist with the awesome new block features that prevent me from even seeing your posts when you are quoted. That is crazy awesome!

Also, great job staying on topic. CHAMP.

Quote: Ahigh

so if you stop responding to my posts,

But but, I DON'T respond to your posts! I
ignore you 99% of the time, like the hot
wind that blows up my driveway in summer.
YOU mentioned ME in this thread, so I
responded. You are OFF my radar, I have
written you off and as failed and forgotten,
sad as that is. The handwriting just hasn't
officially been written on the wall in spray
paint yet. What's next, will you resurrect
Pacman?

You'se guys are not playing nice!
Nice is good, if you can.
But BS is BS, call it if you feel you must.

Quote: EvenBob

What's next, will you resurrect Pacman?

That just happened: http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/23/pac-man-256/

Quote: MathExtremist

That just happened: http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/23/pac-man-256/

The CASINO version, not something for an Ipad.
If we're bringing back things from the 70's to
put in casinos, like pinball, is Pacman & Frogger
next? Immerse yourself in Space Invaders.

Is it just me, or are we still off topic?

Quote: Ahigh

Is it just me, or are we still off topic?

My question is....

If you seriously ever though you were playing with biased dice, why not take advantage of the bias? I get why some of the real bias dice freaks don't(some seem brain dead) .

You certainly have the knowledge and ability to capitalize on biased dice.

You get some that bitch about come out sevens, as if laying the point is some mystery.

Quote: DeMango

You get some that bitch about come out sevens, as if laying the point is some mystery.

Some still don't understand that biased dice may be also biased to the Point, just not more 7s, so Laying the Point may be the wrong move in spades.

Quote: Bohemian

Some still don't understand that biased dice may be also biased to the Point, just not more 7s, so Laying the Point may be the wrong move in spades.

Which point number? There are six choices. Or do you suggest that the dice somehow know what the point is and change their bias accordingly?

I would like to know more about Ahigh calling the NGC about the suspect dice.

How long did it take for a gaming officer to show up when you called?

What happened when the officer showed up?

Was the table still in operation or was the game closed while the gaming agent was there?

How much of the conversation or inspection or procedure with the gaming agent can you tell us?

Don't let this get sidetracked. This is very interesting stuff.

Quote: Ahigh

The best feedback that I got was watching the boxman who I warned getting emotional and upset when he realized he was going to be answering some of the same questions I asked him earlier to someone he really didn't want to have to answer to (which was when he saw the guy with the badge show up).

Quote: MathExtremist

Which point number? There are six choices. Or do you suggest that the dice somehow know what the point is and change their bias accordingly?

Of course he does. Biased dice would be a great opportunity and he will not be able to admit to that.

Quote: AxelWolf

My question is....

If you seriously ever though you were playing with biased dice, why not take advantage of the bias? I get why some of the real bias dice freaks don't(some seem brain dead) .

You certainly have the knowledge and ability to capitalize on biased dice.

Simple, and I told them this too, at the time, but I am in the industry. They already have my player's card and know my name. There are no secrets that I can expect them not to announce to others in the industry and if I have a reputation for taking advantage of casinos for this kind of thing, it could damage my career more than it would be worth to win a few bucks. The front page of NanoTech Gaming's website makes the point that we are focused on transparency and fairness, and this is very important to me and to our company.

It is truly is the fairness towards others who play the game who don't know these things that I am more concerned with than making even five figures over a problem like this that should not exist in the first place. This is where most here in this town are left scratching their heads. There's an attitude that there's no such thing as taking a player's money too fast (IE: F fairness).

I'm against that. And I am staunchly against any casino operators new to this town thinking that they can come here and run a craps table like an amateur and expect to get away with it. This is what I'd expect from a table at a far-off-strip remote location with a $300 max bet (or even lower). I play enough in this town to know that they just were not running this table to the standards (in this town) that I would expect as a frequent player of craps.

They are also doing some very odd things like running the table with second and third base and no stickman and having the stick being operated by one of the base-men. I have never seen this in Vegas and it just seems pretty ____ wrong too, but that's just personal opinion. They basically just are demonstrating that they are floundering on how to run this place.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I would like to know more about Ahigh calling the NGC about the suspect dice.

How long did it take for a gaming officer to show up when you called?

What happened when the officer showed up?

Was the table still in operation or was the game closed while the gaming agent was there?

How much of the conversation or inspection or procedure with the gaming agent can you tell us?

Don't let this get sidetracked. This is very interesting stuff.

It took about 30 minutes to an hour for an agent to arrive.

I filled out a form that was about 1/2 just a long statement about what was going on and what I saw. The NGC verbally interviewed me and asked questions as well. They asked, "did you ask for the stick to be replaced?" I said, "yes." They said, "did they replace the stick?" I said no. There were other questions too that I think were aimed at finding out how much they care about the observations that I was making about fairness specifically.

The NGC only conversed with me as it related to me being a player and did not respond to any statements or questions about what NGC might want to do to prevent these kinds of problems in the future (as in why not take the opportunity to make a statement about how NGC cares about fairness when it comes to how frequently dice are EXPECTED to be changed, even if there are no rules. Basically their response is NO response specifically because that's not what they do. They listen, and they don't give much feedback.

The one bit of feedback that I did receive was, "I would recommend that you don't play here any longer."

The game was closed down for approximately 20 minutes. Two people stood at the bases for the duration of that time, and the box man was running to and fro and so on, and three or four other people came out to also deal with NGC and their discussions about this problem. And I was not within earshot but I was observing the interaction trying to make note of the emotions. The emotional level was high. And I didn't feel bad because I gave them plenty of opportunity to deal with this without calling gaming, and I didn't threaten to call gaming, but I did give them every opportunity to do the right thing and there was zero interest.

It was an interesting experience. But honestly, I didn't even want to share about all of this. I'm not trying to smear Westgate or any other casino operation. But, in general, it SHOULD be known that I care about being fair to people who visit this town to gamble. So I have to pick, and fairness wins over my concern about what Westgate (or any other operator) thinks about what I did here. I would do this to any operation that risks harming the perception that dice in Vegas are fair. I don't believe MOST of what Harley says, but there are some things that are pretty obvious, and this is just one of them. They should care more about this stuff is the bottom line and I'm pretty sure that now they do (at least a little bit), so good enough for now. These operators are new in town from the appearance of things in more than one instance of how they are operating the pit. So consider it the "welcoming wagon" from Ahigh. I would love to see them stepping up their game and running their pit in a way that helps their bottom line, just not this way, but by treating their customers better. They have a terrible track record for how they have treated me too.

Quote: Ahigh

And I was not within earshot but I was observing the interaction trying to make note of the emotions. The emotional level was high.

After the regulators presumably examined the dice in question, did they seize them?

Did the casino open a new a stick of dice and caliper them?

Did the regulators inspect anything else involving the dice or the table?

Quote: SanchoPanza

After the regulators presumably examined the dice in question, did they seize them?

Did the casino open a new a stick of dice and caliper them?

Did the regulators inspect anything else involving the dice or the table?

Dice were taken out of play. Table was not operated for a while. It took quite a bit of time before the new dice arrived. It was long enough, and under the circumstances, I was wondering if they had a stick of dice that had not been cancelled. The serial number that finally did come out had a serial number that was one smaller than the previous stick. I think 0125 was the beat stick and 0124 came out.

The regulators did not inspect anything about the table. The dice in question were taken to a card table nearby where nobody was at the table previously and approximately five individuals including the regulator had discussions over a relatively lengthy period of time. Tempers were not as calm as I would expect if there were not any issues to be concerned about. That's about all that I could infer, though, about how things went and I was told up front that I would not receive any feedback about the results of the inspection.

I guess no one used their cell phone camera to get a picture of this? Too bad there's no photo.

Ahigh did you get the NGC official's name? Is there a date and time this happened?

I want to call the NGC and get their statement.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I want to call the NGC and get their statement.

Ahigh can just request a copy of the gaming police report in Nevada?

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

Ahigh can just request a copy of the gaming police report in Nevada?

I'm sure he could. But in case he doesn't want his name involved, I will do it because I have nothing to fear. I would just need some specifics because I have dealt with the NGC before and they want some specifics with each request so they know which requests are legitimate.

In other words, you can't call them up and say "give me all the reports about customers calling the NGC with complaints about dice."

Right wrong or indifferent, I just wanted the right thing to be done. If I had busted out my camera and gotten all theatrical, I think there may have been some doubts as to my motives.

I have been asked, since working in a position where I talk to regulators and others in the industry, many times why it is that I am so concerned about players.

The answer is really simple:

IT IS GOOD BUSINESS!

Anyone who disagrees with me expect me not to be swayed about how it's better business to be greedy when it comes to taking more than you should from less intelligent people. And I don't care who you are! I care about the State of Nevada and that includes people who gamble. I'm sorry, but I do actually freaking care that people get a good deal!

This is probably the single biggest reason why I keep coming back to this site. This is the overlap between myself and Michael. And I wouldn't be in this industry if not for Michael putting all this casino crap up on the internet where I could find it before I had ever come to Las Vegas.

But I will keep doing my thing. If you guys want to have me pull that report, let's do it! SHOW ME HOW!!!

I refuse to apologize for my ethics, though, no matter who I butt heads with in this town.

Quote: AlanMendelson

in case he doesn't want his name involved, I will do it because I have nothing to fear. I would just need some specifics because I have dealt with the NGC before and they want some specifics with each request so they know which requests are legitimate.

If you should like or need an additional name, I stand ready to join in your request or otherwise help. I am most curious to see the official version of what transpired.

Quote: SanchoPanza

If you should like or need an additional name, I stand ready to join in your request or otherwise help. I am most curious to see the official version of what transpired.

I have to tell you ahead of time that I wrote in the report that I witnessed 218 rolls when in fact it was half that many. I had 218 (or maybe 208 -- I did forget the exact number of) samples of faces over half as many rolls. The report looks much less condemning given this error I made in the report.

Other than that, yes, I wrote it all in there. If there's a way to get it, let's do it. I'm in.

I do expect that just an image of what I wrote down is all you'll see though. There won't be any information about the results of this in terms of what gaming had to say about the issue.

Anecdotally, I have pulled back my craps play after this event. All over town, not just at this one place.

I don't think it has anything to do with my fear of seeing MORE unfair dice around town (I could simply looked at the dice first to have prevented this problem), but I didn't even stop to look at the dice until I saw what seemed like a very unusual sequence of outcomes.

I did lose some trust (not a lot) for expectations from a casino with these bet limits (on the max side) to change their dice more often. I already had similarly lowered expectations from $3 tables with $300 max bets (the few that exist in this town). But they are doing the best that they can and it's hard to criticize these folks. That and I'm 86'd now after counting dice at most of these properties.

I was floored, but now I don't expect as much as I used to, basically.

I was absolutely betting big enough bets that I should be ABLE to expect them to care more about giving me a fair game than they did.

The reason we DO NOT HAVE BIGGER BETS MADE IN LAS VEGAS is due to the violation of trust (specifically with lack of disclosure on video products) as what happened here and as what happens in casinos all over our country every single day and the response from the players is "that's just how it is" rather than doing something about it.

We are doing something about it out our company.

And I do care. Fervently.

Quote: SanchoPanza

If you should like or need an additional name, I stand ready to join in your request or otherwise help. I am most curious to see the official version of what transpired.

I am also curious about it.

Oh, and Bob, you're on block, buddy. But thanks anyway whatever it was.

Quote: Ahigh

Oh, and Bob, you're on block, buddy. But thanks anyway whatever it was.

Oh, and Aaron, thanks for reading my post.
All my love, Bob..

Yea, this is fun, because I almost want to read your message. Meanwhile I get the ancillary post-count increment effect. It's like World of Warcraft without the graphics and only healers that never help you .. just follow you around pretending to have good intentions. You can get SOME XP even for a failed mission where everyone hates everyone and the game itself but just wants to get more XP.

Increment, I say to thee! INCREMENT!!!!

Simply would you please identify the casino, the date and time that the NGC investigator showed up? That's all I need to contact the NGC and to obtain their statement and/or report.

If you called the NGC using your cell phone perhaps you have the original time of your call.

I believe you said it was the Westgate?? I am sure you can give us the specific date and at least an approximate time.

Thanks.

I think it's important to see how the NGC handled the complaint/investigation AFTER the NGC agent showed up.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Simply would you please identify the casino, the date and time that the NGC investigator showed up? That's all I need to contact the NGC and to obtain their statement and/or report.

If you called the NGC using your cell phone perhaps you have the original time of your call.

I believe you said it was the Westgate?? I am sure you can give us the specific date and at least an approximate time.

Thanks.

I think it's important to see how the NGC handled the complaint/investigation AFTER the NGC agent showed up.

I'm all for it buddy! Give me a few minutes here.

July 30, 2015

Okay, first call was at 9:05AM to 702-486-2020. This call was placed from the parking lot of the casino on the east side just outside of the sports book and continued on my bluetooth interface from my Honda Civic while I drove.

Next call was received at 9:15 AM to 702-486-4000. This call was received while I was on the 215 freewhile taking the Durango Exit.

During this call, it was explained to me what my options were. I was planning to go to work and was explaining that my options weren't all that attractive because I didn't want to take all this time to report something when I would get no feedback about the results.

I was given options, including the option to go back to the casino and let them know when I arrived and then wait for them to show up.

I agreed that this was something that I felt was serious enough that something should be done about it. I believe I made a U-turn without arriving at my home which was less than a mile away at this point.

At 9:56 AM, I arrived back in the same parking lot. I called to advise that I had arrived and parked in the parking lot.

At shortly after 10:00am I arrived at the craps table. The game was still being played.

I verified that the same dice were in play (serial number 0125 IIRC, but I reported this elsewhere).

I grabbed my vape and I started vaping (heavily) and betting (lightly) and counting (carefully) with dollar chips on the rail.

During this process I verbally explained what I was doing and why (counting faces because of my suspicion that the dice might not be fair and my curiosity).

They completely ignored me pretty much (I no longer had action), which was fine. I just wanted it to be clear what I was doing so that there was no mistaking it.

I made it really clear BEFORE I left and called gaming too. It's important to note that before I left the casino the first time, the box man did ask third base if he was seeing the same thing, and he did confirm the unusual outcomes were occurring as I described (specifically the aces). To me it was sort of a joke until I looked at the dice.

The gaming official arrived at approximately 10:45 to 11:15. I believe he was there for another hour and I stayed for the duration. I got to the office by noon, and I left as soon as the activity between gaming and the pit was visibly concluded.

I assured the gaming official (he didn't ask this, I offered it up) that although I lost, I am not upset about the loss, or blaming the loss on the outcome of the dice (I lost four figures, but I have been gambling bigger lately). It was about the issues regarding the lack of interest in the casino to respond to my questions about the game being fair in light of the issues that I am observing.

There were other issues that I complained to them about and to let them know there was a history. Namely on Memorial day, I had the day off from work and I gave them continuous action with enough action to earn $100 free bets, and before I was done gambling, I was asked to leave the casino for what I felt was a completely fabricated scenario designed to get me out of the casino because they just didn't want me there (personal in nature, not because of my action).

I believe that this was also a symptom of a problem, but a separate problem. The similarities are that they are not giving me the respect that I have learned to expect playing this game at these bet levels at other casinos. I am not accusing them of being worried of seeing trends that I could capitalize on after watching my action, or anything remotely similar. I just got in a beef with a stick man that was unexpected, and he complained about me, and they asked me to leave.

The beef with that stick man, and his name was Bryan, was that after playing nothing with an edge per roll higher than 0.41% for eight hours straight, and on an empty table, after being audibly annoyed about how long I was playing during a time he would have a day without having to push chips around if it weren't for me, he sold his prop bets with a phrase I have never in my life heard before.

He asked, "does anyone want to hop anything."

I'm humor impaired, and I COUNTED BEFORE I ANSWERED HIS QUESTION. I counted four entire long seconds before I said anything.

And I said, "YOUR MOM" quietly enough that only he could hear me.

He didn't respond at the time, and when he got off stick he had an emotional complaint to Veronica.

Veronica asked me to leave politely. I told her I didn't mean to offend Bryan and I apologized to Veronica. Veronica said, "that's not okay! You can't talk like that to my dealer." I've never had any issue with Veronica and I like her a lot. So I tried to reason with her, but she wouldn't hear it.

So I said, "you know what Veronica, I'm not trying to create problems here, if you guys don't want my action I'll leave." So I started to walk off, and I got about a minute away and I turned around deciding to face this issue. The reason why is because I didn't want to just give in and give up my ability to gamble at this casino, and I wanted to verify that I was still welcome to come back. So I came back and explained to Veronica that I didn't want to give up the option to come back, and she told me to wait while she escalated the issue to her boss.

That guy was a very big tall boss. He brought Bryan over, and after talking for a moment, Bryan became visibly emotional, and the taller guy tapped me on the shoulder and said, "you're going to leave the casino."

I did, and I only came back because I had $100 coupons. I tried diligently to avoid Bryan (and conflict) and just play my $100 bets. I did this successfully the first occasion, the next week, I forgot the coupon, and THIS happened on the third week.

I only bring the issue with Bryan up because, at the time, both my wife and Stephen brought this up as a question if these two events were related. (IE: "Are you sure you're not just doing this to get BACK at them?" was the question).

I don't believe that I was, but two people close to me asked this. So it should be disclosed in the interest of honesty and fairness to the casino and the people involved. My only concern is that I expected to be treated better. He could have taken up the issue with the joke to me personally, but he didn't. And I don't even know if he was genuinely offended. I only know that he didn't want me there, and he managed to get me tossed out of the casino.

I know this is more information than you wanted, but I want to be fair to all involved. And if this came out later, it might appear to be a personal vendetta. I don't believe that it was, though. Certainly the two incidents both affected me, however, and both in very negative ways.

The first incident had me writing a letter to the casino. And in that letter I explained very carefully all of what happened on that incident. I received zero replies from anyone about this letter. I have a soft-copy of the letter written to the casino on that day. I can share that too if that is of any importance.

Here are the key points that I will call the NGC Enforcement Division about:

The date of the event: July 30, 2015

The gaming official arrived at approximately 10:45 to 11:15 and he was there for another hour.

And I just want to confirm this was at THE WESTGATE. Correct?

Quote: MathExtremist

Which point number? There are six choices. Or do you suggest that the dice somehow know what the point is and change their bias accordingly?

MathExtremist, Smartass question will get you a smartass answer. MathExtremist, you are wrong again because there are sometimes 10 choices, not 6 on a Crapless table.

And what do you think bias means? It means that the dice tend to favor certain numbers more often. For instance over on Heavy's board he posted that at an Indian Casino there were no biased dice because he saw the Point of 9 made 3 times and 4 12s rolled by the same shooter. Heavy has it all wrong! What do you think the definition of bias means. Now try laying that Point 3 times as DeMango suggests and see how much you win.

Quote: DeMango

Of course he does. Biased dice would be a great opportunity and he will not be able to admit to that.

DeMango, there is an opportunity to win with biased dice but I am in the same camp as Ahigh, Harley, the Wizard and most state laws:

Quote: Ahigh

I have always wanted the casino gambling experience to be fair for the player,

Ahigh,

Guys have been killed/beaten up/maimed over a remark like that about the other guy's mom. The stick was already not your friend (and you knew it), and you took a bad professional relationship and made it intensely and offensively personal. It reads to me as a petty power play over the guy, with you thinking he has to stand there and take your personal crap to keep your business. "Me: Profit. You: Overhead." taken to extremes. It's not a question of humor impairment. It really isn't, and I'm saying all this as a friend. But I think deep down you know it's not.

I would guess that story got told in the back, to your long-term detriment. So far, if you're them, they see a guy who personally insulted a dealer he didn't like, and shortly after that called Gaming on them. And, if you made any other remarks or had any other issues, no matter how small, either that day or after the "your mom" incident (even the time you avoided Bryan), that got added to your "account" as a problem patron.

You don't mention whether you apologized to Bryan, but I'm guessing you didn't or you would have said so. I don't think an apology to Veronica means anything; he's the one who had one coming, whether he accepted it or not. I would suggest you try starting there if you want to get past this and be welcome. JMHO, and good luck.

1-800-gambler. Compulsive gambler is the one who starts fighting casino personnel. It's time to quit.

Quote: Dicenor33

1-800-gambler. Compulsive gambler is the one who starts fighting casino personnel. It's time to quit.

Inappropriate. ^^^

This Bryan sounds like a woman. Some people just can't take a joke. Who in the world gets offended at a 'your mom' joke?! Ahigh, you should have known better if he was 'audibly annoyed' that this is not someone to joke with.

Quote: Bohemian

For instance over on Heavy's board he posted that at an Indian Casino there were no biased dice because he saw the Point of 9 made 3 times and 4 12s rolled by the same shooter. Heavy has it all wrong! What do you think the definition of bias means. Now try laying that Point 3 times as DeMango suggests and see how much you win.

Thanks to those seven rolls being so conclusive, that looks like the perfect time to place the table maximums on boxcars and the nine.

Quote: Mooseton

Inappropriate. ^^^

This Bryan sounds like a woman. Some people just can't take a joke. Who in the world gets offended at a 'your mom' joke?! Ahigh, you should have known better if he was 'audibly annoyed' that this is not someone to joke with.

You know, I spent a LOT of time thinking about the "YOUR MOM" thing. And I did apologize profusely as my response (to Veronica). And I had *NO IDEA* Bryan was upset at ALL about ANYTHING. I seriously thought that the ENTIRE TABLE WAS HAVING FUN.

Anyone could probably go in and ask about the situation. Maybe they could find out why Bryan WAS offended, but I HAVE NO CLUE! I seriously don't. I can't understand we have gave >0 f's about that comment. Seriously. And I later went to the SAME CASINO and saw behavior that they SHOULD have taken issue with and that they didn't (player rudeness). I sympathize with the fact that they have to put up with rude people, but I just wasn't one of them. I honestly believe what I am saying here as difficult as it may be to assume that I am embellishing for my own benefit, I'm not.

I tortured myself for a long time about the possibility that he was genuinely offended (I really don't know if he was or not). But if he was, I felt bad about it for a very long time. I really did. I never got the chance to even try to make up for it. Just told to leave is all. There were zero other conflicts that I was aware of the entire day before this.

But in any case, yes. It was the Westgate (I said that earlier, but yes, it was).

I hope that is what you guys needed. And good luck anyone who wants to dump time into this. I see it as a big black hole of "Vegas does not care about fairness when it comes to dice, and here's an example of that."

I don't see anyone caring any more about issues of fairness like this one. Everyone involved had jobs to do, and nobody was interested in doing their jobs when it came to taking care of me after this conflict. The casino had comp'd me $120 for Benihana, so I took that as a nod that they appreciated my action. But the dealers were not taking care of me. Gaming responded appropriately and did their jobs, but their role to help me was limited. I was doing all of this for them, not for me. It was made pretty clear that I wouldn't get any benefit from doing this. It was more like voting in that it was something that I felt compelled that I _should_ do but it was much easier to do nothing.

And I don't blame anyone for this either. I would blame Bryan if I know he set me up, but I don't know that. The Westgate's pit is going through some serious painful transitions. I do feel for the entire pit. And before this, I had never had a single instance of a single problem that I can remember in my entire life with anyone at this casino. In fact, Cleve and I had some really awesome times where I was rolling and the table was dumping while I wasn't betting and a high roller was tipping. Obviously in that scenario (when thousands in tokes come into the box) you're an instant hero even for those who don't believe in dice control, they'll agree to whatever as long as the tokes are flowing in.

As far as the apology, I do apologize about this Bryan. I NEVER MEANT TO OFFEND YOU and I thought you were an AWESOME DEALER and I absolutely appreciated what you were doing. I was tipping you at the time (at least $10 in tips in the 30 minutes before this happened) and I am left clueless what the deal was. But I am VERY SORRY BRYAN if you were genuinely offended. I would have told you that if you had given me the chance to respond to, "that actually offends me, dude" or something similar.

I would have apologized profusely, intensely, and immediately. GUARANTEED.

:-|

I just didn't know you'd be upset. In fact, if you recall, I was trying to find out why you didn't laugh at my joke when there was no response. You could have just said, "I'm a little bit offended." I am also genuinely sorry you had to work so hard that day. I prefer not working to working myself like most people. But when I get worked really hard, I step up and I do my job and pride kicks in towards the work that I'm doing.

You were a good enough dealer I thought that you had some pride. I really did. I was thinking that you knew I appreciated the fact that you were an awesome dealer from the way that I was tipping you.

Anyway, I am sorry, buddy. If this gets back to you Bryan, please understand that I never ever meant to offend you buddy. And the thing with the dice doesn't have anything to do with you at all. That much I fervently believe.

But I do believe that your customers should be treated with respect, and that's what I have an issue with. Even if you were offended you should have given me the benefit of the doubt that it was an accident that you were offended by me. Not something that I had ever hoped or wished for at all. I thought we were buds, Bryan. I really did!!!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Ahigh,

Guys have been killed/beaten up/maimed over a remark like that about the other guy's mom.

It was a learning experience. I have never even used a maternal insult joke in my life before this moment (that I can recall). I even thought about it at the time (taking my time to execute and/or "think" of the joke -- it wasn't a fast response at all). I also felt compelled that I was expected to respond to such an unusual prop bet sales pitch that I had never heard before.

The influence in my life that I credit with the fact that this happened (and wouldn't have happened without this influence) was actually Stephen (my coworker). So I, in my mind, associate him with this incident too. I had a conversation with him at work about the use of "your mom" jokes that he does. I have heard no fewer than 10 "your mom" jokes from him previous to this event since he started working for me. I specifically told him "no more your mom jokes" -- and yet he told another one yesterday IIRC. Also, yesterday after talking about this in response to his making another one of these jokes after I told him not to, he told me that they had some website at his previous employer where they traded "your mom" jokes with each other.

As much as possible when Stephen says inappropriate things I give him instant feedback. Yesterday, after learning someone may pass away sometime soon, he said something about them "going down the tubes." This someone was someone that I had personal feeling for. And I had to remind him, "don't ever say that about someone like that." I am not blaming him for what I did, but you need to understand that he can be VERY inappropriate sometimes, and it does de-sensitize me to it because it happens so frequently. That's a problem, too.

I CONSTANTLY have to remind Stephen not to say inappropriate things like this. I also do the same thing with my 12-year-old. Both know that they have serious problems with being inappropriate, and I know when they are being inappropriate. But it does de-sensitize me to these sorts of things.

I was a lapse in judgement, for sure, that was a result of the desensitization to the potential offensive nature of these kinds of jokes.

And hopefully it is obvious, but I value respect a great deal. That's a big reason (disrespect like the guy above saying I might have a gambling problem) I had previously stopped using this site. Just too many people on here that (in many but not all cases) are projecting a bit when they disrespect others. Gamblers frequently are disrespected because people generally don't respect gamblers of games like roulette and craps. They just tolerate them (those who don't gamble at all -- as many dealers fit into this box).

Ahigh, I'm beginning to feel like EvenBob in that I don't want to read all of this.

Get the police report and/or a lawyer; and then sue or don't sue. In any event, get on with your life. Everyone is "going down the tubes", but a few of us plan on and accomplish things which are important to us. Skip the "fairy tales" of everyday life at a distance.

Quote: AxelWolf

My question is....

If you seriously ever though you were playing with biased dice, why not take advantage of the bias? I get why some of the real bias dice freaks don't(some seem brain dead) .

You certainly have the knowledge and ability to capitalize on biased dice.

Quote: Ahigh

Simple,
It is truly is the fairness towards others who play the game who don't know these things that I am more concerned with than making even five figures over a problem like this that should not exist in the first place. This is where most here in this town are left scratching their heads. There's an attitude that there's no such thing as taking a player's money too fast (IE: F fairness).

I'm against that. And I am staunchly against any casino operators new to this town thinking that they can come here and run a craps table like an amateur and expect to get away with it. This is what I'd expect from a table at a far-off-strip remote location with a $300 max bet (or even lower).

Ahigh, well said!

Quote: MathExtremist

Which point number? There are six choices. Or do you suggest that the dice somehow know what the point is and change their bias accordingly?

I take it back, I've found a fixed bias that yields an increased chance of winning any established point and an overall player edge for the passline. The bias is severe, however: at least one of the faces on each die is less than half as likely as one of the other faces on each die. We're talking about having a chance of one of the die faces appearing something like 1/12 rather than 1/6.

Not even cheap drug-store dice are so imbalanced, and it is ridiculous to suggest that such biased dice are in widespread circulation.

There are 2 issues I have concerning NGC and the Westgate case:

Quote: AlanMendelson

Was the table still in operation or was the game closed while the gaming agent was there?

Don't let this get sidetracked. This is very interesting stuff.

Quote: Ahigh

The game was closed down for approximately 20 minutes.

This tells me that the NGC did not properly follow their own procedures. According to Jim Edwards, Senior Agent, NSGCB/Enforcement Division, Reno Office, the NGC agents are to allow the casino approximately 15 minutes to bring another stick of dice from inventory and switch it into the game seamlessly without interrupting the flow of casino operations. Interviewing of all personnel involved should have been done without stopping casino business.

Quote: Ahigh

Gaming told me before they showed up that I won't be receiving ANY feedback as a result of the process.

This also concerns me for several reasons for which I will consult with Harley before I post my final objections.

Quote: Bohemian

There are 2 issues I have concerning NGC and the Westgate case:This tells me that the NGC did not properly follow their own procedures. According to Jim Edwards, Senior Agent, NSGCB/Enforcement Division, Reno Office, the NGC agents are to allow the casino approximately 15 minutes to bring another stick of dice from inventory and switch it into the game seamlessly without interrupting the flow of casino operations. Interviewing of all personnel involved should have been done without stopping casino business.
This also concerns me for several reasons for which I will consult with Harley before I post my final objections.

Actually they told me that I would "not be involved in the process."

There is feedback. The agent did talk to me and give me suggestions.

I apologize if I misled you with what I said because that's not exactly what they told me (they didn't use the word "feedback" just explicitly stated that I would not be involved in the review process to inspect and determine if anything was detected as being unfair about the dice).

However, the one comment about "move on" is the important one. I really don't have time for this. It sucks that I lost and it would suck if I lost because the game wasn't fair (which seems remote, but maybe not as remote as others might think?)

In any case, no way for me to know if it was fair or not. But I am certain that their processes were not good enough to satisfy my demands for a fair game.

That is certain.

Casino workers are trained to piss off unwanted patrons. If they want your business you can say any jokes you like. Read the signs, they give you cold shoulder, leave, don't argue.

Quote: Dicenor33

Casino workers are trained to piss off unwanted patrons. If they want your business you can say any jokes you like. Read the signs, they give you cold shoulder, leave, don't argue.

"No one ever warned the boy, Rock and Roll is a vicious game."

Quote: Ahigh

Actually they told me that I would "not be involved in the process."

There is feedback. The agent did talk to me and give me suggestions.

I apologize if I misled you with what I said because that's not exactly what they told me (they didn't use the word "feedback" just explicitly stated that I would not be involved in the review process to inspect and determine if anything was detected as being unfair about the dice).

However, the one comment about "move on" is the important one. I really don't have time for this. It sucks that I lost and it would suck if I lost because the game wasn't fair (which seems remote, but maybe not as remote as others might think?)

In any case, no way for me to know if it was fair or not. But I am certain that their processes were not good enough to satisfy my demands for a fair game.

That is certain.

Ahigh, maybe clarification is needed if you are willing to share. If you filed a claim with the NGC, will you receive an answer in the mail as to whether the NGC determined that the dice in play were fair or not?

Quote: Ahigh

Right wrong or indifferent, I just wanted the right thing to be done.

Ahigh, I am not an attorney and cannot offer any legal advise. However, the only way I see that you can get any form of justice in this matter is to immediately call your agent on the case and tell him you would like to supplement your original complaint filed on July 30, 2015.

Quote: Ahigh

July 30, 2015
Okay, first call was at 9:05AM to 702-486-2020.

The reason is that cases are to be determined within 30 days before they go into an appeal process and without supplemental facts on your original claim, your case may lack prima facie evidence to rule in your favor.

Quote: Ahigh

I assured the gaming official (he didn't ask this, I offered it up) that although I lost, I am not upset about the loss, or blaming the loss on the outcome of the dice (I lost four figures, but I have been gambling bigger lately).
It sucks that I lost and it would suck if I lost because the game wasn't fair (which seems remote, but maybe not as remote as others might think?).

1. Without a dollar figure to rule on you allow the NGC an easy way out to not rule on your claim or case. By giving them a dollar figure loss (say approximately $120.00), you force them to make a decision one way or the other. Otherwise they may pass on the issue and instead rule it an administrative problem instead. If you win, donate the money to your favorite charity?

2. The governing rules are as follows, however, you may simply state that you believe you have lost monies because the licensee, his agents or employees have not operated in accordance with Nevada Gaming Commission Regulation 5.011. You may also wish the NGC to consider NRS 465.083 and or NRS 465.085.

5.011 Grounds for disciplinary action. The board and the commission deem any activity on
the part of any licensee, his agents or employees, that is inimical to the public health, safety, morals, good order and general welfare of the people of the State of Nevada, or that would reflect or tend to reflect discredit upon the State of Nevada or the gaming industry, to be an unsuitable method of operation and shall be grounds for disciplinary action by the board and the commission in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Control Act and the regulations of the board and the
commission. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts or omissions may
be determined to be unsuitable methods of operation:
1. Failure to exercise discretion and sound judgment to prevent incidents which might reflect
on the repute of the State of Nevada and act as a detriment to the development of the industry.
2. Permitting persons who are visibly intoxicated to participate in gaming activity.
3. Complimentary service of intoxicating beverages in the casino area to persons who are
visibly intoxicated.

9. (a) Possessing or permitting to remain in or upon any licensed premises any cards, dice,
mechanical device or any other cheating device whatever, the use of which is prohibited by
statute or ordinance, or
(b) Conducting, carrying on, operating or dealing any cheating or thieving game or device on
the premises, either knowingly or unknowingly, which may have in any manner been marked,
tampered with or otherwise placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, which tends to
deceive the public or which might make the game more liable to win or lose, or which tends to
alter the normal random selection of criteria which determine the results of the game.
10. Failure to conduct gaming operations in accordance with proper standards of custom,
decorum and decency, or permit any type of conduct in the gaming establishment which reflects
or tends to reflect on the repute of the State of Nevada and act as a detriment to the gaming industry.

Of course we see where NGCR 5.011- 2. and 3. are violated every day, so why not 9. also.

NRS 465.083  Cheating.  It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.
(Added to NRS by 1967, 1282; A 1969, 408; 1977, 325; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294)

NRS 465.085  Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
1.  It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.
2.  It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:
(a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or
(b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.
3.  It is unlawful for any person to instruct another in cheating or in the use of any device for that purpose, with the knowledge or intent that the information or use so conveyed may be employed to violate any provision of this chapter.
(Added to NRS by 1967, 1283; A 1975, 697; 1977, 386; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294; 1989, 972)

I don't have time. I am just too busy. Maybe I'll see you at G2E. But I can't do anything with this except provide facts on here. I'm not seeking, nor was I ever seeking, monetary compensation for whatever the heck is going on over there. I will just stop going like the agent advised me.

Just tell this guy you had an "autistic moment," (or some other condition which causes people to blurt out inappropriate comments) apologize publicly, then offer to buy him a beer.