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2farmboyz
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June 12th, 2015 at 1:43:00 PM permalink
what is the house advantage if I bet the passline and also place a bet on 6 and 8 plus bet the field after every throw
Mission146
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June 12th, 2015 at 6:38:26 PM permalink
Quote: 2farmboyz

what is the house advantage if I bet the passline and also place a bet on 6 and 8 plus bet the field after every throw



Not specific enough, betting how much on each?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
surrender88s
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June 12th, 2015 at 8:06:19 PM permalink
Roughly 4%, enough to not split hairs about it, it's a big house edge. Placing both the 6 and 8, plus field action puts you in a place to lose pretty quick. Consider playing pass, and adding come or don't come bets if you want more action.
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Ahigh
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June 13th, 2015 at 12:48:38 AM permalink
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/1/

Combined HE% per roll will be between 0.46% for no field, only six and eight place bets, and 2.78% if you bet only the field.

If you bet the same amount on each of the six, eight, and field, the edge per roll is easy to remember.

It's 1.23456789%

Who'd a thunk it?
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Tanko
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June 13th, 2015 at 3:50:08 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/1/

Combined HE% per roll will be between 0.46% for no field, only six and eight place bets...



I get (10/22x28)-(12/22X24)/24= 1.51% HE for the combined Place 6 and Place 8 and no Field.

How do you get .46%?
Ahigh
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June 13th, 2015 at 9:02:07 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

I get (10/22x28)-(12/22X24)/24= 1.51% HE for the combined Place 6 and Place 8 and no Field.

How do you get .46%?



( .20 / 13.20 ) / ( 36 / 11 )

You can't get a combined edge without converting to edge per roll.

The average edge for $6 six plus $6 eight plus $6 field is just a weird number though.

( ( .20 / 13.20 ) / ( 36 / 11 ) + ( .20 / 13.20 ) / ( 36 / 11 ) + ( 1/36 ) ) / 3 = .01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
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rdw4potus
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June 13th, 2015 at 9:09:46 AM permalink
So, on average, this HE of this system is about 3 times higher than the HE of the PL? Well, then...
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Ahigh
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June 13th, 2015 at 9:14:30 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

So, on average, this HE of this system is about 3 times higher than the HE of the PL? Well, then...



Yeah, the field is a great bet if you're in a hurry! Generally speaking, the field costs exactly 6 times as much as the place bet on the six or eight, and roughly 6 times as much as the passline bet (in both cases considering the edge per roll).

If you want to make a single bet and have it resolve quickly and leave, the field is a better approach than placing the six or eight and waiting for a seven in my opinion. But both strategies employ the exact same cost. You're just less likely to come out with a notable profit on the place bets. Plus you have to wait longer (6 rolls) for the way that people make this bet (until the seven -- nobody comes down on a win on the six and eight in general, that I watch).

If you want your money to last (if you want to actually PLAY the game rather than just take a single risk), the bets that last longer are the better ways to stretch out your losses over a longer period of time.
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Steen
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June 13th, 2015 at 12:10:30 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh


You can't get a combined edge without converting to edge per roll.



False. Combined edge can be figured and expressed per resolution or per any metric the user prefers.

Steen
Steen
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June 13th, 2015 at 2:06:42 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

I get (10/22x28)-(12/22X24)/24= 1.51% HE for the combined Place 6 and Place 8 and no Field.

How do you get .46%?



0.46% is the edge expressed per roll.

Your numbers look a little strange but the end result of 1.51% is correct. It's the edge expressed per dollar of action. Ordinarily the HE of craps bets are figured per resolution (winning and losing outcomes). However, when figuring multiple simultaneous bets, the term resolution doesn't always apply to the full amount wagered unless all bets resolve at the same time. Because some bets might resolve at different times and different rates, it makes more sense to figure the edge per dollar of action. Action being the amount wagered which was directly responsible for an outcome.

Think about it ... craps is about the rolls, but is it really EVERY roll you're so concerned about? When you bet Place6, are you worried about how many 5's the shooter will throw? Aren't you more concerned about the 6's and 7's which will produce actual wins and losses (resolutions)? And what do you REALLY care about that? Isn't it your money that you really care about when wins and losses occur? Aren't you MOST interested in how those wins and losses relate to the money that you wager?

Well then, what good is a HE that expresses outcome in terms of non-resolving rolls that you don't even care about? A $5 Place5 loses less per roll than a $5 Field (3x12), so should you prefer the Place5 over the Field? If you're hung up on loss per roll you might think so. However, if you care more about your money, then you might be interested to know that the Place5 loses more per dollar of action.

Steen
mustangsally
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June 13th, 2015 at 4:28:07 PM permalink
Quote: 2farmboyz

what is the house advantage if I bet the passline and also place a bet on 6 and 8 plus bet the field after every throw

i agree more info is needed to answer your title and post Q.

you start with a pass line bet say
$5
and no other bets because the dice have yet to be thrown
"also place a bet on 6 and 8 plus bet the field after every throw"

now after the 1st throw (roll)
you make a place 6&8
do you always do this on a come out roll?
are your place bets always OFF on the come out roll? (default rules of game)
you also make a Field bet after the 1st throw (roll)
does the Field bet pay 2X on the 2 or 12?
this will matter

now say the 1st roll results in a 6
the point is 6
do you still have a place 6 bet to make and work?
this seems like a real awful play, in my opinion, as an odds bet would B the better bet (by house edge of course)

in other words
how exactly do you wants to play each and every throw (roll)
the come out rolls and the point rolls?

thanks for asking this Q

Angels again tonight
off to the Big A

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24Bingo
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June 13th, 2015 at 6:08:29 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

If you bet the same amount on each of the six, eight, and field, the edge per roll is easy to remember.

It's 1.23456789%

Who'd a thunk it?



It's actually 1.23456790123456790123...

No 8.
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odiousgambit
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June 13th, 2015 at 6:23:24 PM permalink
Quote: Steen

is it really EVERY roll you're so concerned about?



I almost never pick up a bet, so looking at it per roll makes no sense for me - outside of the recognition that time elapses differently. A lot of guys move their bets around, so per roll might be how they want to look at it.
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quads4444
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June 13th, 2015 at 6:59:51 PM permalink
its all in the numbers....
2farmboyz
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June 13th, 2015 at 7:07:56 PM permalink
Thanks Ahigh I know my question wasn't particularly clear but I think you understood it as I intended it thanks for the information and thanks everybody else who posted
Ahigh
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June 13th, 2015 at 9:47:35 PM permalink
Your welcome, buddy.
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dicesitter
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June 14th, 2015 at 7:08:01 PM permalink
Ahigh



I have a casino hoist friend that plays that way and has for years....now ne bets anywhere from
$120 on the 6 & 8 and $50 on the field to $1600 6 & 8 and couple hundred on the field.

Now he uses the wins on the field to press the 6 & 8.

In 20 years I have not seen him win, he says he does.

dicesetter
charliepatrick
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June 14th, 2015 at 10:11:36 PM permalink
The better bets are the Pass (or Come, ignoring the Don't being even better bets) and the Place 6 or 8s. As has been suggested for staying at the table longest for your money it's a close thing between the Pass and Place bets because the Place bet doesn't work on the come out. Of course the advantage of the Pass is you don't choose the numbers, whereas sod's law says if you Place the 6 then there will be lots of 8s.
AxelWolf
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June 14th, 2015 at 10:22:17 PM permalink
Quote: dicesitter



In 20 years I have not seen him win, he says he does.

dicesetter

This is very common and this is exactly what most DI's do.

This is probably how we got the myth of the Captain. He was probably a real person, but everything was probably exaggerated. I'm sure he won sometimes and people probably seen him winning sometimes. They probably didn't see all the times he lost. If you play long enough, eventually you will have winning sessions that make you look like a craps god.

But, he was probably just a degenerate craps player who used DI as an excuse to justify playing. Had he been around today, he probably would have jumped on the bias dice camp, using it as a reason he couldn't win anymore.

DI is the perfect crime/system. It involves a game that's very interesting and fun for most people. There's enough going on to make it complicated. It's got long shot odds and many bets to chose from. Its considered a mans man game of gambling. It's almost like people believe there's something special about being good at craps. It's a low house edge on some bets really help. Its far less complicated than counting cards. You're interacting with other people, you can be a hero, or a villain. It seems as if you control your own fate.

DI sounds very possible (I thought it might be at the beginning). Even some credible people thought it might be at the beginning. No one can prove 100% that it's impossible. When people are winning they believe its the DI making it happen. When people are losing, it can be explained away with with many excuses such as: Its just variance, you need more practice, there were to may distractions, you're having an off day, chips got in the way, bad table conditions, biased dice are being used.

What a racket they have with DI classes. Especially if they take the players out to play and get afterglow fees, or whatever they call it.

Half the time they probably win. So they claim it's the DI working and get extra money, if they lose, they claim it's just variance.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
dicesitter
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June 15th, 2015 at 8:16:07 AM permalink
Laughing



Axelwolf....... I did not say he was a DI in fact he is not only not one I have seen him place a
$1600 6 and a $1600 8 and $200 field bet and stand and throw backwards....he in 20 years has made no
attempt what so ever to even throw in the same place.

It appears you took a great of time to say nothing.

Dicesetter
AxelWolf
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June 15th, 2015 at 8:55:37 AM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

Laughing



Axelwolf....... I did not say he was a DI in fact he is not only not one I have seen him place a
$1600 6 and a $1600 8 and $200 field bet and stand and throw backwards....he in 20 years has made no
attempt what so ever to even throw in the same place.

It appears you took a great of time to say nothing.

Dicesetter

I dint say he was a DI either. I just said that most DI's say, that they win, but they really don't. I have a friend who is supposedly a DI. He thinks he's winning. He might be winning this month or week, but he forgets all the money he has lost in the past. He forgets that he blew his BR and had to work his real job to save and start again. He cant admit DI is BS he's put to much time, money and effort into it. It's a vicious cycle, and its why I want people to know the truth.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FatGeezus
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June 15th, 2015 at 9:16:14 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Of course the advantage of the Pass is you don't choose the numbers, whereas sod's law says if you Place the 6 then there will be lots of 8s.



How is that an advantage?

Having the dice choose which number is the Point is a big disadvantage.

If were playing the Pass Line and you could pick the Point number everytime, which number would you pick. I know that I would pick the #6 or the #8. Having the dice decide the number is not an advantage. The dice may decide that the #4 or the #10 is the Point.
Ahigh
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June 15th, 2015 at 9:43:27 AM permalink

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dicesitter
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June 15th, 2015 at 12:39:41 PM permalink
Axelwolf


You cant admit that there are people that are smarter than you and I and better at one
form of gambling than you or I.

I have said before if you play craps twice a week for a hundred hands each and bet only
a $12 6 & 8 and $5 pass with triple odds your expected lose is slightly over $22000
per year.

You and others than have a hard time admitting the very possibility some one could do
something you have never even tried, and that is having some, even if slight influence over
the dice. If such a player even changes his expected loss from $22,000 to $10,000
a year with such play he has had an affect. That is why you always say well is he a
lifetime winner. You assume a person has to win millions ..... to have an affect... wrong.

You yourself admitted my throws looked like it took a lot of effort to limit the effect of
the table and back wall.... then in the next sentence you seem to say you can have any affect
on the dice....

either you can have some impact or you cant?????

I have asked a number times for you or some one else to throw some rolls and record
them.... then a DI can roll same number of rolls, and change sets halfway to see if there
is a difference from one set to another and then from the DI to you.

You wont do it.....I think there is your answer.

The idea that your some how trying to stay noble and protect everyone from trying to influence the dice
is a bunch of cow manure......

then again that is just my opinion...

dicesetter
Sonny44
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June 17th, 2015 at 8:01:52 PM permalink
Why should I care about HE per roll? All I care about (and know) is the HE when I win. When I win, I know the HE takes a bite out of my winnings. So, what's this thing about HE per roll? To me, it's irrelevant, except for those who like talking about it.
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