Frank Scoblete has a new Craps Book
Quote: Zcore13All false and unsubstantiated. You can not compare darts, golf, bowling or anything else to trying to control a dice shot. None of those have a back wall that purposely changes the trajectory of the item you are using.
It's really simple. It's been shown over and over and over again that dice don't stay in control or on axis or have any inkling of being consistant after hitting the back wall.
It's been shown NEVER that someone can control or influence the dice.
You're not a winner lifetime or over the last 20 years, or 10 years or 5 years or probably the last 12 months.
ZCore13
If DI exists, it would have the same variability and 'having a good day' as shooting darts. Thing is, no-one can prove it exists anyways. The variability of day-to-day results is a given. Of course some days people will lose if they have a moderate ability of DI. Anyone expecting them to win all the time is wishing for golden unicorns.
Thing is, I am not even convinced they can influence the dice by any measurable standard. And then we get people like dicesitter who tells us he has spent 10,000 hours on tuning is shot... but still can't tell us his advantage you have to wonder why you'd bother. Then again, dreaming the impossible dream is no bad thing, and if he's happy, go for it. It's -possible- the pyramids don't impart enough randomness from each collision and will leave influence effects in place after a roll. It's -possible- but '-not likely-. But all we have to see is long term patterns, and you can tell if there's influence, and then if there is... how best to bet it.
But don't serve a crock of tripe and tell me it's filet steak.
Baccaratfrom79 has as much credibility as anyone touting DI.Quote: thecesspitIf DI exists, it would have the same variability and 'having a good day' as shooting darts. Thing is, no-one can prove it exists anyways. The variability of day-to-day results is a given. Of course some days people will lose if they have a moderate ability of DI. Anyone expecting them to win all the time is wishing for golden unicorns.
Thing is, I am not even convinced they can influence the dice by any measurable standard. And then we get people like dicesitter who tells us he has spent 10,000 hours on tuning is shot... but still can't tell us his advantage you have to wonder why you'd bother. Then again, dreaming the impossible dream is no bad thing, and if he's happy, go for it. It's -possible- the pyramids don't impart enough randomness from each collision and will leave influence effects in place after a roll. It's -possible- but '-not likely-. But all we have to see is long term patterns, and you can tell if there's influence, and then if there is... how best to bet it.
But don't serve a crock of tripe and tell me it's filet steak.
I don't know why, I don't know how much, I don't keep track. I pull out the monkey and let it do it's thing. It just work's, how dare you not believe me.
Quote: thecesspit... but still can't tell us his advantage you have to wonder why you'd bother.
He did at some point indicate you could influence/control high numbers being rolled or low numbers being rolled, based upon the "set". If this were true as he outlined, you could make a fortune simply by placing said high(or low) numbers and laying(the opposite/others). When/if the seven appeared, you of course would win the lay bets and all along the way win the place bets. Not rocket science and in fact, easier than golf or bowling or darts.
So I'm ready to pay dicesetter to gamble with my money and share the winnings.
Quote: AxelWolfno golden goose is being killed, especially since the goose is laying goose eggs.
If I didn't like my sig line so much already, this [with subject made clear] would be my new one
Also, I have an unusual shooting style. Not a style anyone else here is probably capable of doing without cramping their hand. My right middle finger was broken by a school bully when I was 7. Consequently the growth plate was damaged and that finger has never grown since. So, when I pick up the dice with that hand I am able to go straight down on top of both dice with my index finger and ring finger acting as pincers and the tip of my middle finger resting on top of both dice. The combination of the dice setting and this grip has led some players to think I "know how to shoot." This always makes me laugh because I know how random this game is no matter how I shoot. Although I have on occasion been known to throw both dice with no rotation what so ever with this grip. :)
Exactly. In reality the name of so called DIQuote: cmlotitoWhen I roll the dice I usually set the dice in the 3v set. Am I am DI? No, absolutely not. I play the game to relax and enjoy the surroundings. If I win money, great. If I start losing, I walk away. But while I am at the table I rarely get excited. I like to set the dice that way as a kind of ritual. I know it doesn't matter but I like doing it anyways. It takes maybe an extra 3-4 seconds before I roll so no one ever grumbles about me taking too long.
Also, I have an unusual shooting style. Not a style anyone else here is probably capable of doing without cramping their hand. My right middle finger was broken by a school bully when I was 7. Consequently the growth plate was damaged and that finger has never grown since. So, when I pick up the dice with that hand I am able to go straight down on top of both dice with my index finger and ring finger acting as pincers and the tip of my middle finger resting on top of both dice. The combination of the dice setting and this grip has led some players to think I "know how to shoot." This always makes me laugh because I know how random this game is no matter how I shoot. Although I have on occasion been known to throw both dice with no rotation what so ever with this grip. :)
instead should have been called Dice Style . Golden Touch should of been called Golden Style. Craps, we won't turn you into a winner, but you'll look good trying.
Only deluded people believe in skilled players. I can admit there's a skilled while the dice are in the air, unfortunately it's not enough to overcame the landing, not to mention the hitting the back wall.Quote: SepuHi, I´m new to the forum, but I think I can add some light to this DI discussion. You all mentioned in prior posts and discussions that there are good crap shooters and bad crap shooters. Just admitting that there are different qualities of shooters you are admitting at some point that there are different skills players have while rolling the dice. Now, I ´m not a dice setter or anything similar, but I go to casinos where I know some good shooters and I´ve made some money betting on them and not betting on rookies/drunk shooters. So call it whatever you want, instead of DI you can call it Roberto if you want, but there are people that have better shooting skills than others and therefore, and can increase your odds of getting a short term return of your money. Would they get a Hard 8 any time they want? Probably not... But just accepting that there are different skills of players you are implying that in some way Dice Influence is achievable at some point.
There's lucky players. When they are winning people claim skill, when they lose they blame variance.
If in the discussions, some people admit that there is no such thing as a good shooter or a bad shooter, does that prove that DI is impossible?
Quote: Dalex64Do the same people who believe DI is impossible believe in good shooters and bad shooters?
If in the discussions, some people admit that there is no such thing as a good shooter or a bad shooter, does that prove that DI is impossible?
There are no good or bad shooters. There are no skilled or unskilled shooters. There is no influencing or control.
ZCore13
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere are good shooters. They keep the dice on the table. They don't throw the dice to hit players or dealers in the face. they don't take forever setting dice or going through rituals. They don't stop to order drinks or talk to their friends or ask their girls to kiss the dice while holding up the game. Yes, there are good shooters.
Actually, the ones that slow up the game are better for you.
Quote: IbeatyouracesActually, the ones that slow up the game are better for you.
You mean you don't believe that the dice get cold during long lapses in play????
Quote: AlanMendelsonYou mean you don't believe that the dice get cold during long lapses in play????
Only if you put them into a freezer.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere are good shooters. They keep the dice on the table. They don't throw the dice to hit players or dealers in the face. they don't take forever setting dice or going through rituals. They don't stop to order drinks or talk to their friends or ask their girls to kiss the dice while holding up the game. Yes, there are good shooters.
Good answer.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by a good shooter or bad shooter.
In terms of random shooters there is no such thing except that a person that is having or has just had a
good roll could be called that. In some casino's a pit guy might call a shooter that after a point is made.
In terms of folks that take the classes or work on what you call dice control it would not be any different
than you would judge a golfer, he is a good golfer, average or like me bad golfer.
I have taken a number of classes from different places on throwing the dice, and their methods can vary from
a tad to complete difference. GTC for instance has a shot that shows the dice staying together in the air and
rotating from2-5 times before they hit the table at a 45 degree angle, and hopefully settle down close to each other
or at least in the same relationship to the back wall. Now if a guy that has taken those classes sees that he may
comment that guy is a good shooter... If you see some guy do that and the dice bounce all over the table, one 4 inches
from the back wall, the other 4 feet. I expect he would be called a bad shooter.
Over the years I have been doing this I have seen some guys that are much more consistent than others. Now I
am not going to say that makes one a winner and one a loser.. I don't know.... I feel winning has as much to
do with the way you bet as the way you throw.
At any rate, what you call a guy has nothing at all to do with whether or not influencing dice is possible. Having
said that, if you cant contain the movement of the dice after they hit the table and limit the effect of the alligator
board, you have no possible way to get any form of influence, and it takes a guy or gal with thousands of
hours of practice to do that.
Would that person be a good shooter... to me yes.
dicesetter
He must be making a fortune.
Hmm there must be heat, he's downtown betting table minimums.
No, he always bets small, he's been running bad for 10 years.
Running bad? Yes, he's been keeping up with the HA.
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A good shooter = someone who can influence the dice enough to gain an advantage.
For that I suggests reading fiction book.
10 years later. Still waiting.
Besides, the same guys that are talking here about the impossibility of a DI, are talking about cold tables or hot tables... Which from a statistical stand point is totally nonsense... But in practice, if I go to a table where everybody is depressed and are consistently losing, I always bet on the darkside or become much more conservative on my place/come bets.
Just my opinion...
Wow!... look at that guy... he's a good shooter. His sets are good, His form is good, his hands are steady, the dice staying together in the air , the dice stay in the target zone, the dice don't bounce all over to much, he's fairly consistent.
Yes that is a good shooter.......
Again you insult the work it takes to shoot like that. If I see a guy or gal that shoots like that I will compliment their efforts, I don't
need to know how much they won.
Is there a point to your constant insults to those that try....
I have to admit I don't understand your mind set....and I have tried to.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
Wow!... look at that guy... he's a good shooter. His sets are good, His form is good, his hands are steady, the dice staying together in the air , the dice stay in the target zone, the dice don't bounce all over to much, he's fairly consistent.
Yes that is a good shooter.......
Again you insult the work it takes to shoot like that. If I see a guy or gal that shoots like that I will compliment their efforts, I don't
need to know how much they won.
Is there a point to your constant insults to those that try....
I have to admit I don't understand your mind set....and I have tried to.
dicesetter
I think axel is trying to be realistic. He doesn't want new members to this forum to be easily influenced by a dice technique that probably has no more merit than a betting system. If people want to give it a try, they are free to do so. Axel is essentially playing the devils advocate and letting them know they could potentially lose a lot of money.
so kudos to axel for being the voice of reason in all these dice threads!
Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
Wow!... look at that guy... he's a good shooter. His sets are good, His form is good, his hands are steady, the dice staying together in the air , the dice stay in the target zone, the dice don't bounce all over to much, he's fairly consistent.
Yes that is a good shooter....... Again you insult the work it takes to shoot like that. If I see a guy or gal that shoots like that I will compliment their efforts, I don't need to know how much they won. Is there a point to your constant insults to those that try.... I have to admit I don't understand your mind set....and I have tried to. dicesetter
People forget to value the time they spend on something in $$ & cents. I'm aware that players spend hours & hours perfecting their DI skills. The current idea is that you need to spend 10K hours perfecting whatever activity you're interested in, to be successful. So, if your time is valued at $10/hr. (min. wage), then, you need to win $1K to break even on the time spent perfecting your throw. This is in addition to the $$ spent on DI courses.
But, the question is if practicing DI ever reaches a point we can call successful. DI would gain credibility if a significant number of people could post significant improvements in their play after the hours spent perfecting their throws, to the extent their DI recovers the expense of learning and developing it. This leads to the question: Do DI players consistently win more than their random counterparts?
Quote: SepuJust admitting that there are different qualities of shooters you are admitting at some point that there are different skills players have while rolling the dice
Dicesetter, I am simply pointing out that not everybody "admits" that there are different qualities of shooter, and therefore are not admitting to the rest of the stuff in that sentence.
Then, there are the people who admit that there are different qualities of shooters who still don't admit that it leads to different results.
Then, there are the people who agree that there are different qualities of shooter, and they do have different skills, but they aren't admitting anything either, since they already agree.
But I still define a good shooter as someone who doesnt take out an eye or who doesn't throw the dice out the door.
However, we have all heard dealers say "same good shooter" after a point is made.
So... adopting that... anyone who makes a pass is a good shooter.
Quote: DeMangoAre you a cheesehead too? 10,000 hours times $10@hour equals??? C'mon Grizzola!
lol, that didn't seem right to me either, however I doubt anyone would practice 10K hours at DI even if it could be proven to have an edge.
Perhaps that was a typo and he meant 100 hours, not 10K hours. Then his math would make more sense as well as suggesting someone puts in so much labor to get good at it.
Your 100% correct, I don't know how you put a value on the time......
I don't do it for the money, I do it because it is an attempt to see how good I
could get... its just like any other hobby your serious about... its not about the money.
Now in terms of 10,000 hours, I have no idea how many hours each person puts in. nor
do I care except if their throw looks good I know it took effort. I have worked 10-20 hours
a week for 6 years.... and I have a long ways to go, some of the guys have done this for
10-15 years or more.
And no you never get to a point where your there.... because dice change, tables change, and you
change.
I don't think Axel is trying to save people time, I don't think he respects anyone that tries this
because they don't seem to get good enough to suit him.
Dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterSonny44
Your 100% correct, I don't know how you put a value on the time......
I don't do it for the money, I do it because it is an attempt to see how good I
could get... its just like any other hobby your serious about... its not about the money.
Now in terms of 10,000 hours, I have no idea how many hours each person puts in. nor
do I care except if their throw looks good I know it took effort. I have worked 10-20 hours
a week for 6 years.... and I have a long ways to go, some of the guys have done this for
10-15 years or more.
And no you never get to a point where your there.... because dice change, tables change, and you
change.
I don't think Axel is trying to save people time, I don't think he respects anyone that tries this
because they don't seem to get good enough to suit him.
Dicesetter
That's because after 6 years at 10-20 hours per week or 10 - 15 years or more, you or they are absolutely no better than someone rolling the dice out of a paper cup. That is Axel's (and mine) point.
All these other comparisons, golf, bowling, hobbies, etc, etc., can be proven that the extra work/practice makes a difference. They are real. Add up all the hours and days and weeks and months and years of practice from DI/DC and the end result is no proof and no difference in end results.
ZCore13
Quote: AlanMendelsonI want everyone to try to influence the dice when they shoot. That's part of the game. I want people to try to win when they have the dice. If you are not trying to win please pass the dice to the next player.
But I still define a good shooter as someone who doesnt take out an eye or who doesn't throw the dice out the door.
However, we have all heard dealers say "same good shooter" after a point is made.
So... adopting that... anyone who makes a pass is a good shooter.
A "good shooter" is the "bad shooter" that PSO'd the last time up and now rolls some box numbers...
A "good shooter" is one who controls the speed of play--not too fast and not too slow...
There are a lot of qualities about a "good shooter" but NONE of them can be proven to be related to DICE INFLUENCE or DICE CONTROL.
Every shooter is hoping for a good result and tosses the dice in a way that he hopes to achieve that result...and every shooter has the same random outcomes.
Quote: DeMangoAre you a cheesehead too? 10,000 hours times $10@hour equals??? C'mon Grizzola!
OK, my bad. I'm not good at math, to say the least. Shouldn't do it in my head. So, $100K invested. Makes the stakes even higher.
Quote: Dalex64Dicesetter, I am simply pointing out that not everybody "admits" that there are different qualities of shooter, and therefore are not admitting to the rest of the stuff in that sentence. Then, there are the people who admit that there are different qualities of shooters who still don't admit that it leads to different results. Then, there are the people who agree that there are different qualities of shooter, and they do have different skills, but they aren't admitting anything either, since they already agree.
I'll never understand why people attribute to the person what the dice are doing. The dice will do what they do regardless of the person tossing them. Who's shooting is irrelevant, but players insist on attaching to the shooter what the dice are doing. As a shooter, I've had helluva good rolls; OTOH, I've had shitty rolls. Jeez, I wish people would get over this notion.
Quote: darkozlol, that didn't seem right to me either, however I doubt anyone would practice 10K hours at DI even if it could be proven to have an edge. Perhaps that was a typo and he meant 100 hours, not 10K hours. Then his math would make more sense as well as suggesting someone puts in so much labor to get good at it.
No, Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote "The Tipping Point," wrote in another book that it takes at least 10K hours to perfect one's performance at anything. Gladwell's books have been influential, as "the tipping point" crops up frequently in the media. This is where I got the idea, but I can't recall the book in which he referred to the 10K hours.
Quote: Sonny44I'll never understand why people attribute to the person what the dice are doing. The dice will do what they do regardless of the person tossing them. Who's shooting is irrelevant, but players insist on attaching to the shooter what the dice are doing. As a shooter, I've had helluva good rolls; OTOH, I've had shitty rolls. Jeez, I wish people would get over this notion.
Sonny, I have to say I disagree with you. Even though that everybody has superb rolls and shitty rolls (depending on what side you are playing!), I consistently earn money playing place bets and come bets on shooters I know are experienced shooters over rookie/amateur/drunk shooters. And also many times, this experienced shooters broke me rolling a seven in their first shot after establishing the shooters. But over the long term, you will win more money in this kind of shooters than on amateur shooters, playing on the good side.
Therefore, I think DI is extremely rare, but for sure there are better shooters than others. And I know that every table and every dice and every place is different. But if a shooter has a consistent roll (use the same dice setting technique, throws the same way, etc) you can expect him to have similar repeated outcomes over the time. I ´ve seen consistent shooter throw tons of 6 & 8, tons of 5, Hardways, etc. Do they throw them all the time, of course not. Do they throw them more often than they are supposed to do? My guess is yes, they do. The only way to find out is trying to be consistent why you are shooting and detect patterns, and bet on this patterns. Do this guarantee a long time edge over house? Of course not! Your performance also depends in your betting pattern.
I many times with good shooters consistently pressed my lines in order to have more than a thousand U$D playing in my place bets until I lost it all with one seven... That doesn't mean that I wasn't paid over a huge period of time from 100 bucks to 1000 after pressing. I recognize I bet like shit!!! :)
Quote: Sonny44No, Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote "The Tipping Point," wrote in another book that it takes at least 10K hours to perfect one's performance at anything. Gladwell's books have been influential, as "the tipping point" crops up frequently in the media. This is where I got the idea, but I can't recall the book in which he referred to the 10K hours.
It's an essay in "What the Dog Saw". And, yeah, he was quoting other experts, but he put forward the 10K hours to be qualified as an expert.
Fair enough lets see.....
I took the time to make a couple of video's to show what my dice look like, so you and Axel can make a similar video
of 50 rolls. and then I want you to show when you changed sets to see if there is a difference....
I think that is more than fair.....
Remember I said my video would show a consistent roll and it did, remember I said my video would show a toss that
limits the effect of the back wall and it did....
Now it is you and Axel who said all this practice has not made my toss any different than yours.... well lets see.
And we don't need any of this mealy mouth crap about.. well if you cant win it does not make any difference.... lets see
what you can do if you say your rolls are the same as mine.
I am not willing to show on tape my sets or me throwing, but short of that we can do a lot of things to see if there is a difference
between you and me..... lets see if your paper cup really works????
dicesetter
Quote: Sonny44I'll never understand why people attribute to the person what the dice are doing.
I love this statement. Because the dice only do what the shooter made them do. There are no variables on the table. If the dice fly all over the table its because of the way the shooter threw them. If the dice bounce off the table it's because of the way the shooter threw them. The table does not come with any springs, wave motion device, blowers that could interfere with how the shooter throws the dice.
If the dice land on 5-2 it's because of the shooter.
that doesn't mean that the shooter controlled the dice or influenced them (that's another story) it's just that as soon as the shooter picks up the dice he sets in motion a chain of events that ends with the dice coming to rest.
The only exception is when someone else willfully swats at the dice. If the dice bounce off someone else's hand or body it's the same thing as if the dice bounced off the wall of the table.
I will never forget the first dice lesson I took in a casino and a pit boss explained when the shooter throws the dice the fate of the dice is in the shooter's hand. The casino does not control the dice. There is no RNG to blame. There is no wheel and no bouncing ball. If the result is a 8 it's because of the shooter. If the result is a 3 it's because of the shooter. Blame no one else.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI love this statement. Because the dice only do what the shooter made them do. There are no variables on the table. If the dice fly all over the table its because of the way the shooter threw them. If the dice bounce off the table it's because of the way the shooter threw them. The table does not come with any springs, wave motion device, blowers that could interfere with how the shooter throws the dice.
If the dice land on 5-2 it's because of the shooter.
that doesn't mean that the shooter controlled the dice or influenced them (that's another story) it's just that as soon as the shooter picks up the dice he sets in motion a chain of events that ends with the dice coming to rest.
The only exception is when someone else willfully swats at the dice. If the dice bounce off someone else's hand or body it's the same thing as if the dice bounced off the wall of the table.
I will never forget the first dice lesson I took in a casino and a pit boss explained when the shooter throws the dice the fate of the dice is in the shooter's hand. The casino does not control the dice. There is no RNG to blame. There is no wheel and no bouncing ball. If the result is a 8 it's because of the shooter. If the result is a 3 it's because of the shooter. Blame no one else.
I don't know if you're serious or sarcastic. An 80-yr old lady is just as likely to make points as a 20/30/40 something guy. It's a mistake to bet according to who's shooting. It's not the shooter; it's the dice. This is craps players' superstition, like the dice going off the table, etc. I agree a good shooter is one who keeps the dice on the table, tosses to hit the back wall, and lets the dice die. That's a good shooter, but as to making points? No way.
Quote: Sonny44It's not the shooter; it's the dice.
How can you say it's the dice? The dice don't have eyes, ears, feet, hands or a mind. The shooter throws the dice.
It's not like you picked up a chicken and put the chicken on a giant bingo board to peck at food placed on each numbered box.
Quote: AlanMendelsonthe dice only do what the shooter made them do..
Until they come into contact with the table or the
backboard. Then the shooters influence ends.
Quote: EvenBobUntil they come into contact with the table or the
backboard. Then the shooters influence ends.
The shooter influences everything on the table. The shooter determines how the dice bounce, how far they bounce, how many times they roll and flip and turn. What you are trying to argue EvenBob is that there is no such thing as (and this might be a new term) "designed influence."
Well, this isn't a question of designed influence, which is what DI or DC is supposed to be.
This is only a matter of the shooter setting the dice in motion. And only the shooter sets the dice in motion and ultimately it is only the shooter who determines how the dice land. (Whether or not the shooter can actually design how the dice land is another issue.)
Quote: EvenBobUntil they come into contact with the table or the
backboard. Then the shooters influence ends.
Wrong as usual King Friday.
The laws of physics are NOT suspended at the table.
You better be careful here, it almost sounds like you think the shooter can make a difference.
dicesetter
