Loading the dice for a home game
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So first off, how would he load the dice so that it would affect the outcome, but wouldn't be the same # rolled every time (since it would be obvious that way). Should he load 1 die or both? Which #(s) should be favored to land? What bets would have to be disallowed? (since presumably loading the dice will make certain bets +EV for the player) Is there a particular brand of dice that's easy to gaff? How would he tell if the gaffing is successful or not?
He's also doing a blackjack game where he's doing a 8 deck shoe, and removed 1 deck's worth of aces and tens from the shoe (so it's 20 cards short, essentially starting an 8 deck shoe with a -20 count, that's like a nice +1.25% to the house edge).
Quote: sc15So, I have a friend who wants to host craps as part of his home game, and he asked me about loading the dice so that it's in his advantage. Since I know nothing about cheating (and not much about craps in general), I figure I'll defer to the experts.
So first off, how would he load the dice so that it would affect the outcome, but wouldn't be the same # rolled every time (since it would be obvious that way). Should he load 1 die or both? Which #(s) should be favored to land? What bets would have to be disallowed? (since presumably loading the dice will make certain bets +EV for the player) Is there a particular brand of dice that's easy to gaff? How would he tell if the gaffing is successful or not?
He's also doing a blackjack game where he's doing a 8 deck shoe, and removed 1 deck's worth of aces and tens from the shoe (so it's 20 cards short, essentially starting an 8 deck shoe with a -20 count, that's like a nice +1.25% to the house edge).
Shaving dice is the usual tactic of unprofessional cheats. I don't where you find your friends, but this party host really isn't the kind of guy/gal you want to give advice to.
Use the math to shave those points.
Quote: Mission146I wouldn't even worry about messing with the Point Numbers. If he wants a bigger edge, the Pass Line bet pushes on a CO Yo and the DP pushes on a CO Three as well as Midnight, problem solved.
Yeah, except he wants people to think it's a good game so they're more likely to play.
Hence why he took cards out of the deck in blackjack instead of making it 6:5.
He also asked me to bankroll his game for a share of the win/loss. I said no since I don't trust him for obvious reasons.
Quote: RSSounds sketchy. I say avoid this "friend" (who can't be trusted). Not just for the gambling party, but in general overall.
Well, let's put it this way. My past dealings with this guy involve me paying him to "accidentally" spill a drink on a ploppy at a table game.
I do avoid him unless there's something I need done that requires a scumbag to do it.
"Friend" was a bad word to pick to describe him.
That being said, loaded dice, and a matching pair of fair dice are commonly available for purchase. E.g., search for "magic dice" on ebay. The hustler will need to work on doing the switch without being detected... and dealt with appropriately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dURhrY9Z-xg
According to the video, if you cook for the dice for 10 minutes, you are guaranteed to roll the same number. Maybe if you cook it for 5 minutes you will only roll the number half the time? To further mystify the scam, cook all the 5 dice in different ways. Think of a way that no matter what the combo of the 5 dice is, the house will always have a big advantage.
I am not a violent type, but if I found I was being cheated at someone's home casino I would not hesitate for a moment to go to the police. The LEOs would pick up your friend, drag him downtown and interview him. Chances are good your name would be dragged out of your friend as the source of the loaded dice. At that point, the police would visit you and you'd be facing some possibility of a felony conviction. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take legal advice from me. I'm just asking - are the risks really worth it?
cheating individuals and friends is one of the worst thing's I can think of. Advising someone how to cheat someone is almost just as bad.
I could care less if he gets arrested/beat up/shot because one of his "patrons" finds out he cheated them. I'm not going anywhere near that game. And I could care less about the suckers he rips off, because frankly, they deserve it for going to an illegal game.
Quote: sc15And I could care less about the suckers he rips off, because frankly, they deserve it for going to an illegal game.
I question whether or not a game amongst, "Friends," should even be illegal. Thus, I disagree with this statement.
or the guy who is actively seeking to provide him the means to do so.
Quote: Mission146I question whether or not a game amongst, "Friends," should even be illegal. Thus, I disagree with this statement.
"should" is your opinion.
Law states it's illegal.
Quote: sc15"should" is your opinion.
Law states it's illegal.
The main focal point of my disagreement with you is that I question whether or not people deserve to be ripped off as a result of going to an illegal game. I never stated or implied that, "Should," was anything other than my opinion, and even if I felt that the game should be illegal, I still would not opine that the players deserve to be ripped off as a result.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm completely disgusted with your "friend" looking to cheat his "friends" at his home game. Lots of people get together for home games, and they mostly trust each other to let the cards or dice do the talking while they enjoy themselves. Your "friend" is the kind that causes home games to be illegal. Wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit to hear he'd been sliced up for his trouble.
Well, it's not really his friends. He runs the game for under 21s to play (he lives in vegas, anyone who's over 21 can just go to 100+ casinos to play). It's not a "home game" in the sense of a bunch of people who know each other playing together. I only call it a home game because it's being run out of a house.
He's been arrested before for running an illegal poker game. He's also done time for assault.
This is a guy I paid $100 to spill a drink on someone at a table game (with the obvious risk of getting into a fist fight). He's a scumbag, plain and simple. No delusion here on who he is.
Quote: chrisjs87You paying a guy to spill a drink on someone doesn't make you any less of a scumbag. It just makes you a scum bag with no balls.
I've done it before when I wasn't needed to play the game. But I can't do it and then take the seat because it makes it too transparent what just happened.
When a seat's worth $2000+ / hour to us, and some loser is sitting there playing $10 / hand all shift, we'll do what we need to in order to get them out of that seat.
When I've done it though, there's never been an incident. I make it look like an accident (my tactic is usually to walk with my phone in 1 hand, drink in the other, then walk right into them while I'm staring at my phone), then apologize profusely and offer to pay for their shirt, etc. FWIW, this tactic is listed in grosjean's book on ways to get a ploppy out of a seat.
I also once paid a hooker to get a guy off a game. No idea what happened afterwards, but my agreement with her was she had to get the guy to leave the game.
Quote: sc15And I could care less about the suckers he rips off, because frankly, they deserve it for going to an illegal game.
People holding thoughts like this is what really bothers me about the world. Its disturbing to hear you say they deserve to be ripped off. Businesses should treat their customers well. Otherwise the business doesnt deserve those customers. The legality of the business is irrelevant.
Quote: sc15This is a guy I paid $100 to spill a drink on someone at a table game (with the obvious risk of getting into a fist fight). He's a scumbag, plain and simple. No delusion here on who he is.
Even you admit he is a scumbag. So, why are you helping him? What does that make you?
Quote: WizardEven you admit he is a scumbag. So, why are you helping him? What does that make you?
I'm no saint. My reasons for helping him are purely self interest. It's useful knowing a guy who's willing to get 86ed from casinos and risk getting into a fight for pay.
Quote: sc15
When a seat's worth $2000+ / hour to us, and some loser is sitting there playing $10 / hand all shift, we'll do what we need to in order to get them out of that seat.
What kind of degenerate trust fund babies/drug dealers play in this game?
Quote: djatcI hope your friend gets cheated out of his dumbass home game
That would be great. If I had concrete info, I'd turn him in.
Quote: tringlomaneWhat kind of degenerate trust fund babies/drug dealers play in this game?
I'm talking about a casino table game. When there's a hole carding or other opportunity at it.
I had to wonder if any were for you slimey "friend".
Im not sure but I 'think' it is a felony to be running a gambling game, and I suspect they would prosecute as hard as they can if it turns out to be more than just a bunch of friends or locals in the game.
My question is, are there other charges that can be brought forward if the games are determined to be gaffed? Would that mean more jail time, or a heavier fine, or ????
Quote: RaleighCrapsThis thread has me wondering something.
Im not sure but I 'think' it is a felony to be running a gambling game, and I suspect they would prosecute as hard as they can if it turns out to be more than just a bunch of friends or locals in the game.
My question is, are there other charges that can be brought forward if the games are determined to be gaffed? Would that mean more jail time, or a heavier fine, or ????
I don't know. Possibly, but consider this.
What's the definition of a game that's gaffed? This is an unregulated, illegal game. States that allow legalized gambling have 100s of pages of documents stating how a game is to be dealt. Those documents don't apply to illegal games. Sure, if a legal casino loaded the dice it would clearly violate the law since I'm sure somewhere in the law it states that the dice used in craps have to be balanced a certain way. But that law only applies to legal casinos.
They might be able to add fraud or theft by deseptuion on top of running illegal gambling. I don't know. But either way im sure they would be less lenient on someone who has been caught .Quote: RaleighCrapsThis thread has me wondering something.
Im not sure but I 'think' it is a felony to be running a gambling game, and I suspect they would prosecute as hard as they can if it turns out to be more than just a bunch of friends or locals in the game.
My question is, are there other charges that can be brought forward if the games are determined to be gaffed? Would that mean more jail time, or a heavier fine, or ????
he has admitted he wants to pass off information explaining how to cheat player's at an illegal gambling operation in trade for a favor(intentionally spilling a drink) during a hole card situation.
I would assume giving someone information how to cheat during an illegal gambling operation in trade for a favor, somewhere in the area of being an accessory to the crime. He's gathering information on how to counsel someone to commit a crime. knowing this if you give him that information im wondering if that is a crime as well. I might be a big strech of the imagination but who knows.
Quote: sc15I've done it before when I wasn't needed to play the game. But I can't do it and then take the seat because it makes it too transparent what just happened.
When a seat's worth $2000+ / hour to us, and some loser is sitting there playing $10 / hand all shift, we'll do what we need to in order to get them out of that seat.
When I've done it though, there's never been an incident. I make it look like an accident (my tactic is usually to walk with my phone in 1 hand, drink in the other, then walk right into them while I'm staring at my phone), then apologize profusely and offer to pay for their shirt, etc. FWIW, this tactic is listed in grosjean's book on ways to get a ploppy out of a seat.
I also once paid a hooker to get a guy off a game. No idea what happened afterwards, but my agreement with her was she had to get the guy to leave the game.
Here's your problem, and what makes you look scummy as well. You're acting as if you have no other options. If there's a guy siting at a table you need to get on and you're willing to spend $100 to get a spilled drink/potential fight, why not simply walk up to the table and say "$100 to the first person that gives me their seat." You're in a casino... I would be willing to bet you could do this and get someone to leave at any table in the place. To them it's just "hey, I'll take that $100 and sit at that table over there with it, no risk!"
Or how about you do your homework better next time? If the dealer you want to hole card starts their shift at 7pm, then you should get there at 6:15 and get on the table min betting playing basic strategy / sitting out until the next dealer comes. The EV you lose from doing that would be pennies to the dollar than paying someone to potentially start a fight.
There's always another way. Non scummy / intelligent people will take the 10 minutes to think it though and figure it out. I'd also be worried for your own safety. Say this idiot gets caught, and they're beating him to a pulp asking who else was in on it, knew of it, anything... In his severe beating and desperate to get out of the situation he name drops you as the one whom helped him set it up. Now you have a price on our head too. Again, think smarter, not harder.
Quote: RomesHere's your problem, and what makes you look scummy as well. You're acting as if you have no other options. If there's a guy siting at a table you need to get on and you're willing to spend $100 to get a spilled drink/potential fight, why not simply walk up to the table and say "$100 to the first person that gives me their seat." You're in a casino... I would be willing to bet you could do this and get someone to leave at any table in the place. To them it's just "hey, I'll take that $100 and sit at that table over there with it, no risk!"
Or how about you do your homework better next time? If the dealer you want to hole card starts their shift at 7pm, then you should get there at 6:15 and get on the table min betting playing basic strategy / sitting out until the next dealer comes. The EV you lose from doing that would be pennies to the dollar than paying someone to potentially start a fight.
There's always another way. Non scummy / intelligent people will take the 10 minutes to think it though and figure it out. I'd also be worried for your own safety. Say this idiot gets caught, and they're beating him to a pulp asking who else was in on it, knew of it, anything... In his severe beating and desperate to get out of the situation he name drops you as the one whom helped him set it up. Now you have a price on our head too. Again, think smarter, not harder.
Buying a seat looks very suspicious to the dealers/pit. I also can't see into the future, so I don't know which dealers are going to be exposing cards tonight (if any), and even if I have their names/photos in my database, I don't have access to employee schedules to know which table they're going to be assigned to tonight.
This guy also doesn't have my real name. I contact him thru one of my alias's email addresses / burner phones.
Quote: sc15Buying a seat looks very suspicious to the dealers/pit. I also can't see into the future, so I don't know which dealers are going to be exposing cards tonight (if any), and even if I have their names/photos in my database, I don't have access to employee schedules to know which table they're going to be assigned to tonight.
This guy also doesn't have my real name. I contact him thru one of my alias's email addresses / burner phones.
1) Hire someone else to buy it, flail $100 hard at the table, then leave, giving another team member the seat.
2) It's very easy to make small talk and ask them if this is their regular shift, are they changing, saying ploppy things like "they're you're lucky dealer" etc. Again, a little thought and preparation means you can absolutely find out every single dealers schedule you want. From my experiences a lot of dealers enjoy chatting about how long they've dealt, where else they've dealt, what shifts they've been on, are on now, and want to be on in the future... etc ;)
That's good he doesn't have your info. But what if they're beating him to a pulp and he just says he can give them the guy that helped set it up? Then he calls you like nothing's wrong the next day asking to meet up for lunch, they come, follow you home, you lose the game. That's what I would do if I wanted access to you. He doesn't need to have your info (although if he has ANY of it then you can easily be found); he just needs access to you, which anyone gets from association.
I'm not saying I dislike you, think you're scummy, etc. I've seen a few intelligent posts come from you, so I'm just curious why you wouldn't take the intelligent approach instead of the blunt low rode that will inevitably converge to trouble.
Quote: Romes1) Hire someone else to buy it, flail $100 hard at the table, then leave, giving another team member the seat.
2) It's very easy to make small talk and ask them if this is their regular shift, are they changing, saying ploppy things like "they're you're lucky dealer" etc. Again, a little thought and preparation means you can absolutely find out every single dealers schedule you want. From my experiences a lot of dealers enjoy chatting about how long they've dealt, where else they've dealt, what shifts they've been on, are on now, and want to be on in the future... etc ;)
That's good he doesn't have your info. But what if they're beating him to a pulp and he just says he can give them the guy that helped set it up? Then he calls you like nothing's wrong the next day asking to meet up for lunch, they come, follow you home, you lose the game. That's what I would do if I wanted access to you. He doesn't need to have your info (although if he has ANY of it then you can easily be found); he just needs access to you, which anyone gets from association.
I'm not saying I dislike you, think you're scummy, etc. I've seen a few intelligent posts come from you, so I'm just curious why you wouldn't take the intelligent approach instead of the blunt low rode that will inevitably converge to trouble.
You haven't been in the business. I know people who have tried tactics like buying a seat off someone, and it doesn't work as well as you might think. I used to have a team mate who's a girl and would do this for us when needed. The chances of that turning ugly were pretty much 0. A lot of times the target is a married couple. Always spill the drink on the guy. Spilling on his wife is much more likely to elicit an aggressive response. Also, most of the time the target is someone who's been at the table for a while, and looks like they'll continue to be at the table for a long time. $100 won't be enough motivation to get them to give up a seat when they're down like $500 already (You're looking at this from a rational perspective. Most degenerate gamblers are NOT rational). But very few people will sit there in soaking wet clothes and continue to play. That almost always gets them to decide it's time to take a break.
I already know which shift the dealer's going to be on, since 99% of the time a dealer works the same shift (day, swing, grave) at a given casino day after day. But what I CAN'T know is what game/table they're going to be assigned to. Not every dealer deals the same game every day, and unless it's a very small casino the table they're going to be on is random. I can't ask the supervisor in charge of scheduling what pit and table Irene is going to be scheduled to tomorrow, lol.
