Chip Hiding

Why do so many players try to hide their chips? By trying to slip them into their pockets (or wherever) with amusing slight of hand, clearly trying to make sure that the table crew doesn't notice?

I don't get it. I've seen some untrusting people openly keep their chips in their pockets or purse, not trusting the racks. I don't mean that.

I mean the ones that act like stage magicians trying to make stuff disappear. For clarity: their own chips, and not ones they've stolen or anything like that.

Clearly they can do whatever they want with their chips. But why do they want to keep it a secret from the crew?

Two reasons:

1. Because "ratholing" is banned at a poker table, cheques must stay in play the entire time you are at the table with the exception you may use them to pay and toke the waitress.

2. It is an old gimmick to hide winnings to avoid a backoff at Blackjack.

One other possible self-disclpline.

Often a dealer will advise a player to put two blacks in your pocket after paying you five blacks instead of a single chip.

Yes, the Floor Person will see it. Whether you do it openly or slyly. At a craps game they probably know what is in your shirt pocket more accurately than you do.

It is often a "psychological banking" (you know, like the guy who puts ten dollars in his shoe when he enters the casino... that is what he gives his wife out of his "winnings").

Some people may not know its perfectly legal to put chips in your pocket and that you do not have to color up. Some players just want the casino to think they are losing in the hope of getting a better comp.

But whatever the reasons or the manner in which it is done, the casino personnel are paid to watch everything and they do. So don't think you are pulling a fast one. You ain't.

At baccarat, (unlike Poker) of course you can do anything you want with your chips. I don't play on credit, I play on Front Money most of the time. A lot of people I know play on credit and sometimes they want to rat hole and give to someone else to cash out cause they don't want to pay their marker right away. Other than that, I do it for my own M.M. which is once I get up I play 1/3, 1/3. and 1/3. Meaning 1/3rd gets cashed out and not touched that trip, another 1/3 rd goes to buy-in for increase and another 1/3rd goes in for my reserve for that trip. I keep doing that every time I double or nearly double my buy-in/BR.

Quote: FleaStiff

Often a dealer will advise a player to put two blacks in your pocket after paying you five blacks instead of a single chip.

Yes, the Floor Person will see it. Whether you do it openly or slyly. At a craps game they probably know what is in your shirt pocket more accurately than you do.

It is often a "psychological banking" (you know, like the guy who puts ten dollars in his shoe when he enters the casino... that is what he gives his wife out of his "winnings").

Some people may not know its perfectly legal to put chips in your pocket and that you do not have to color up. Some players just want the casino to think they are losing in the hope of getting a better comp.

But whatever the reasons or the manner in which it is done, the casino personnel are paid to watch everything and they do. So don't think you are pulling a fast one. You ain't.

As usual, I find you a font of wisdom re: casinos. Thanks.

I don't get the "psychological banking" thing in this context. If so, why try and hide it from the crew? Why would they care? If I wanted to do that I'd not try to hide it. I'd just pick up the chips and put them in my pocket. Not try to palm them surreptitiously when I thought no one looked, etc., and the drop them in my pocket while I tried to distract them with my other hand or thought they didn't look. And by the way, sometimes I have gotten stared at by the box man or floor man when I dropped my hand down to get a breath mint from my pocket or reached down to get my drink. In fact, I've noticed they watch players (and dealers') hands more intently than a cop watching a suspect's hands while investigating a felony.

If people think it not legal to put chips in their pocket then why would they do it and why would they try to hide it? What do they get out of it? Compared to just leaving the chips in the rack?

From what I understand about comps, the casinos don't comp on losses (except for whales and I somehow don't think whales try and hide their chips -- at least, if they do I don't think any sane whale would expect to get away with it but perhaps you all consider "sane whale" an oxymoron). The casinos (at least in my case) comp on play over time (quite sensibly). I don't travel much in whale circles (I have mostly found them obnoxious).

I never thought the casino personnel wouldn't notice this behavior! In fact, I've always found it amusing that people would think so. I can't count the chips in my rack by sight, but I know the crew can certainly do that in an eyeblink!

But even if I did that, exactly what "fast one" did I pull? What would they report? "The fat guy with a beard and glasses put some chips in his pocket." Okay. Ho hum. And?

Quote: Concinnity

Why do so many players try to hide their chips? By trying to slip them into their pockets (or wherever) with amusing slight of hand, clearly trying to make sure that the table crew doesn't notice?

I don't get it. I've seen some untrusting people openly keep their chips in their pockets or purse, not trusting the racks. I don't mean that.

I mean the ones that act like stage magicians trying to make stuff disappear. For clarity: their own chips, and not ones they've stolen or anything like that.

Clearly they can do whatever they want with their chips. But why do they want to keep it a secret from the crew?

Do a search for the thread: "Is ratholing illegal".

You will find all the answers, although the the thread is blackjack related.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

At baccarat, (unlike Poker) of course you can do anything you want with your chips. I don't play on credit, I play on Front Money most of the time. A lot of people I know play on credit and sometimes they want to rat hole and give to someone else to cash out cause they don't want to pay their marker right away. Other than that, I do it for my own M.M. which is once I get up I play 1/3, 1/3. and 1/3. Meaning 1/3rd gets cashed out and not touched that trip, another 1/3 rd goes to buy-in for increase and another 1/3rd goes in for my reserve for that trip. I keep doing that every time I double or nearly double my buy-in/BR.

Would you mind expanding on your money management, please? I don't think I understand some of this. And I applaud you for having a money management strategy. I've noticed that an awful lot of players don't.

By the way, I don't play on credit either. I could, but I prefer front money. Old fashioned, I suppose even though I would find playing on credit more convenient.

Okay, so if you find yourself winning so much that you at least roughly double your buy-in then you cash 1/3rd of your winnings and don't touch it and stash it away. Okay, got it.

1/3rd of your winnings goes to increase your bankroll. Okay, I understand that too. Presumably that means you increase your betting by a proportional amount.

But what do you mean by that 1/3rd "reserve" for the trip? What does that do?

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

A lot of people I know play on credit and sometimes they want to rat hole and give to someone else to cash out cause they don't want to pay their marker right away.

Yep, most casinos will have you pay a marker back immediately if you break even or win. If you say you want to hang onto the chips to play at another table and don't go back to play, they will typically take it from your checking account within a day or two (instead of the typical waiting period) and usually suspend your account.

Quote: Concinnity

From what I understand about comps, the casinos don't comp on losses

Not entirely true. I know for a fact that they Wynn will comp you 10% on losses during a trip (this was told to me directly from a host). I've had a couple of bad trips and decided to stay an extra night and have been comped twice there under these circumstances (my average bet and duration would not have qualified me for the free room).

Quote: Concinnity

Would you mind expanding on your money management, please? I don't think I understand some of this. And I applaud you for having a money management strategy. I've noticed that an awful lot of players don't.

By the way, I don't play on credit either. I could, but I prefer front money. Old fashioned, I suppose even though I would find playing on credit more convenient.

Okay, so if you find yourself winning so much that you at least roughly double your buy-in then you cash 1/3rd of your winnings and don't touch it and stash it away. Okay, got it.

1/3rd of your winnings goes to increase your bankroll. Okay, I understand that too. Presumably that means you increase your betting by a proportional amount.

But what do you mean by that 1/3rd "reserve" for the trip? What does that do?

Bankrolled management is used for many reasons.

Usually its a defense from going completely broke or losing more than you're comfortable with. Having a Budget might be a more appropriate term for a Vegas trip. If you're coming to Vegas for 3 days it's better to pace yourself and allocate X amount you can lose each day. This way you can have fun gambling each day. Stopping when you have reached a desired goal amount is just a mental game. "i'm up money for the day, I feel good(after glow), Ill sleep better tonight" None of this affects the odds. Playing less on a negative EV game is the best strategy. Having A stop point just happens to inadvertently help because you play less on a negative game.

System players use Bankroll management to fool themselves or others. It seems to be a main factor in most (losing) systems. Its complete BS.

APs need BR management because money is a tool for your job. If you lose your tools you can't work at all. It's better to stay working for less money without the possibly of going broke, than to risk going broke and be permanently out of the game.

Quote: FleaStiff

Often a dealer will advise a player to put two blacks in your pocket after paying you five blacks instead of a single chip.

Yes, the Floor Person will see it. Whether you do it openly or slyly. At a craps game they probably know what is in your shirt pocket more accurately than you do.

It is often a "psychological banking" (you know, like the guy who puts ten dollars in his shoe when he enters the casino... that is what he gives his wife out of his "winnings").

Some people may not know its perfectly legal to put chips in your pocket and that you do not have to color up. Some players just want the casino to think they are losing in the hope of getting a better comp.

But whatever the reasons or the manner in which it is done, the casino personnel are paid to watch everything and they do. So don't think you are pulling a fast one. You ain't.

First of all, Fleastiff,

There is no chance that casino personnel notice every instance of ratholing. Casino personnel are usually asleep on their feet.

This applies to all games, but if you want a particular example in craps, I have noticed all of the following:

1. Dealer pays off odds on winner 5 at 2:1. Box man, stick and floorman did not notice.

2. Dealer forgets to take DP bets on 11 come out. No one notices.

3. Dealer forgets to move come to the number when a number is rolled (this happens frequently.)

Now, you're telling me that the floorman at craps, who isn't watching the game 90 percent of the time, or the boxman who is supposed to be watching the layout, is going to notice a player "palm off" a black chip from his rack and put it in his pocket -- when the table is full and the layout is covered in bets? Are you kidding me?

The advantages of "ratholing" are obvious when you are playing rated: you want the casino to think you are more of a loser than you are. This results in better offers and more comps.

I will concede that most amateur gamblers who do this are, in fact, just psychologically separating their money, trying to protect themselves.

Quote: AxelWolf

Bankrolled management is used for many reasons.

Usually its a defense from going completely broke or losing more than you're comfortable with. Having a Budget might be a more appropriate term for a Vegas trip. If you're coming to Vegas for 3 days it's better to pace yourself and allocate X amount you can lose each day. This way you can have fun gambling each day. Stopping when you have reached a desired goal amount is just a mental game. "i'm up money for the day, I feel good(after glow), Ill sleep better tonight" None of this affects the odds. Playing less on a negative EV game is the best strategy. Having A stop point just happens to inadvertently help because you play less on a negative game.

System players use Bankroll management to fool themselves or others. It seems to be a main factor in most (losing) systems. Its complete BS.

APs need BR management because money is a tool for your job. If you lose your tools you can't work at all. It's better to stay working for less money without the possibly of going broke, than to risk going broke and be permanently out of the game.

I don't play or read or believe in 'systems'. In baccarat, I might play the trend or chop or wager on past patterns, but nothing to do with a so-called system.

Played long time and failed miserably 100% of the time when I used to win earlier on, 15 plus years ago. Once I started my MM I have rarely gave back the whole thing, maybe once or twice in 50 plus times.

Quote: bodyforlife

Not entirely true. I know for a fact that they Wynn will comp you 10% on losses during a trip (this was told to me directly from a host). I've had a couple of bad trips and decided to stay an extra night and have been comped twice there under these circumstances (my average bet and duration would not have qualified me for the free room).

For larger, known players, might also hold true for contacting a host and working out details up front, but probably at least a $20k buy-in or so. It is for a 'quick loss' as they call it. The rule of the thumb is right around 10% of the loss in equal comp, sometimes 15% or so. Long time players of a casino chain really doesn't matter. Comps are 'generally' based on time and game and avg wager. Doesn't matter win or lose.

Quote: Concinnity

Would you mind expanding on your money management, please? I don't think I understand some of this. And I applaud you for having a money management strategy. I've noticed that an awful lot of players don't.

By the way, I don't play on credit either. I could, but I prefer front money. Old fashioned, I suppose even though I would find playing on credit more convenient.

Okay, so if you find yourself winning so much that you at least roughly double your buy-in then you cash 1/3rd of your winnings and don't touch it and stash it away. Okay, got it.

1/3rd of your winnings goes to increase your bankroll. Okay, I understand that too. Presumably that means you increase your betting by a proportional amount.

But what do you mean by that 1/3rd "reserve" for the trip? What does that do?

I have tried lots of different MM techniques, but for me, this one is simple and works. The last 1/3rd is discretionary extra play. Myself and my style is I hit it hard and can get very large wins and likewise, might blow my bankroll. So like I said 1/3 never ever would be touched and 1/3rd back into my play/BR. The other will go in a separate pocket for 'what if'. Might just give it to the wife to go shop over at C.P. mall or the Fashion Mall. So if I buy-in with $30k and win $30k, I will be playing with $40k and $10k back in the suitcase and $10k for shopping or possible re-buy in later. Myself, and again my style and might be unique to me. I have learned over many years that if I lose after I win, I seldom recover. I plateau out sort of saying. So if I keep winning it all good, if I go up and down and then win, I get real careful when the losing starts.

IMPORTANT>>>It does not make me sleep better, it does not give me an advantage. It is a way to manage my bank roll winning without the urge to gamble it.

Money management ≠ system? My belief for you is the same that I have for most people. As long as you're having a good time and know what you're up against, enjoy!

Quote: Minty

Money management �‚ system? My belief for you is the same that I have for most people. As long as you're having a good time and know what you're up against, enjoy!

Sorry, thought you guys were talking about a 'system' for gambling, meaning a 'system' that a player believes in prediction or progression for some kind of edge, etc. Money Management to me is just a tool to allow me to manage my winnings (IF) I win. Hope you understand.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

For larger, known players, might also hold true for contacting a host and working out details up front, but probably at least a $20k buy-in or so. It is for a 'quick loss' as they call it. The rule of the thumb is right around 10% of the loss in equal comp, sometimes 15% or so. Long time players of a casino chain really doesn't matter. Comps are 'generally' based on time and game and avg wager. Doesn't matter win or lose.

I'm not even close to a $20K buy-in and didn't work out a thing up front. I would be considered small potatoes by their standards. But have had a $3K loss there a couple of times and the host said no problem on the room comp (that's when she told me about the 10% rule they have). I am aware that generally it is based on duration and average wager (hence the comments "not entirely true" and "my average bet and duration would not have qualified me for the free room"). So yes, I qualified my comment.

Quote: bodyforlife

I'm not even close to a $20K buy-in and didn't work out a thing up front. I would be considered small potatoes by their standards. But have had a $3K loss there a couple of times and the host said no problem on the room comp (that's when she told me about the 10% rule they have). I am aware that generally it is based on duration and average wager (hence the comments "not entirely true" and "my average bet and duration would not have qualified me for the free room"). So yes, I qualified my comment.

Anything is possible. Depends on the property and the host and what power the host has. Different properties have different rules about losses with little time in.

I get comp'd upfront for RFB&I, no matter the play time I put in or not. Win, lose or draw. But that is at CET/MGM and a couple of other properties I have an established play record at. If I go somewhere new, after they verify my play elsewhere they call me. They tell me what they can do and what can be issued upfront. Then the disclosure. If you lose without the standard 4 hours per day X's the amount of days, we will give you ___% on your buy-in if lost in a short time.

Talking about comps upfront, most places will also 'bonus' a larger buy-in if you play at a certain level. Which means, generally give you promo chips for a certain percentage. Or they give you a lose rebate at a certain percentage. Ask, all they can do is say , no.

If I am at a hot, crowded craps table - $500 and $1000 chips go into my front pocket.

Discourages thieves as well as my wife who may happen to wander by......

I rathole much more often playing slots than table games. On slots, if I get a 20 up to 50, or a 100 up to 150, I cash out and start over with a fresh bill. That keeps me from chasing my winnings back into a particular slot, because every time I reach into my wallet, I think about changing my machine. I read a book a long time ago (20 years or so) about slot techniques that said "stop and move if you've won, then given back 25% of your win; that machine's done". I realize that's nonsense after my time on this board, but the funny thing is, it's worked. (The guy's name was Avery Cardoza; don't remember the book's title.)

However, if I double up on a table, or even take what I consider a significant win, I do a virtual rathole by sectioning off my original stakes and sometimes more from my active chips so that, again, I have to think before breaking into winnings or my original stake.

For me (defined as a recreational gambler), it's never been about trying to fool the house. I'm trying to fool myself into not dropping my whole bankroll on a bad streak. That's the psychological aspect, at least for me.

I've also wondered about having chips on the rail at craps, which is a new game for me. The one time I was up $1200, it was 4am and just 3 of us playing, so I felt a lot less vulnerable, but even a bunch of greens feels uncomfortable when it's crowded and everyone's moving. I appreciate the towel thing most places do when you step away for 5 minutes. But with everyone leaning down to bet and everybody's hands on the rail, I find it distracting and a little threatening to have to guard my chips. I like how Doc organizes his rail with groups of chips turned; I think he would notice immediately if one or more are gone, but it moves too fast for me at my novice level to keep up with that, so I keep the high-value chips in the center and the whites/reds on either end so if someone tries to pinch my rail, they'll be stuck with small denominations. I think.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

I have tried lots of different MM techniques, but for me, this one is simple and works. The last 1/3rd is discretionary extra play. Myself and my style is I hit it hard and can get very large wins and likewise, might blow my bankroll. So like I said 1/3 never ever would be touched and 1/3rd back into my play/BR. The other will go in a separate pocket for 'what if'. Might just give it to the wife to go shop over at C.P. mall or the Fashion Mall. So if I buy-in with $30k and win $30k, I will be playing with $40k and $10k back in the suitcase and $10k for shopping or possible re-buy in later. Myself, and again my style and might be unique to me. I have learned over many years that if I lose after I win, I seldom recover. I plateau out sort of saying. So if I keep winning it all good, if I go up and down and then win, I get real careful when the losing starts.

IMPORTANT>>>It does not make me sleep better, it does not give me an advantage. It is a way to manage my bank roll winning without the urge to gamble it.

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense for your situation. I have a simpler money management system, but then, I don't have a partner/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/mistress/boy-toy or whatever (just lucky, I guess).

I manage my bankroll in terms of managing losses and just do the boring thing and take my entire bankroll for my trip, and divide it by the number of sessions I expect to play for that trip. If I lose my buy-in for a session then I leave and go entertain myself some other way. With no [insert the distracting partner of your choice here] I have great liberty regarding that. If I win I basically ignore it (for the purposes of money management; like almost everyone else I do prefer to win) and stick to my original management plan.

But your method makes a lot of sense given the distractions and maintenance issues you have (I don't criticize your choice of lifestyle!). Also considering you want to increase the strategic size of your bets when you win a significant amount.

By the way, you have all figured out that a casino has never offered to comp me part of my losses (should I try to lose and see what happens? I could bet a lot on 12 I guess). I only front 5 figures/trip by wire-transfer (never using credit), and buy-in for 4 figures for each session at the tables for 3 trips a year (or maybe a little more) with about 20 hours of play each trip, so I suspect that I don't make it on their radar.

Thanks again.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

Anything is possible. Depends on the property and the host and what power the host has. Different properties have different rules about losses with little time in.

Actually, it sounds like it's their policy at the Wynn regardless of the the factors you mentioned. It has nothing to do with the host. That's why I brought it up (just to give the OP an example where duration and average bet was not the only way to get a comp in every instance). We're "generally" in agreement here. No need to beat a dead horse. I simply said "not entirely true" and gave an example where it wasn't.

Quote: bodyforlife

Actually, it sounds like it's their policy at the Wynn regardless of the the factors you mentioned. It has nothing to do with the host. That's why I brought it up (just to give the OP an example where duration and average bet was not the only way to get a comp in every instance). We're "generally" in agreement here. No need to beat a dead horse. I simply said "not entirely true" and gave an example where it wasn't.

I had Susan Savage there and she is the Queen B****h I ever met in my life!! Charlie Ward stepped in for a bit and then ran off to Macau for Steve. I had to many problems there, not in comps, on the floor in basic common sense and logistics. Pain in the butt, they need help there. Sorry for all you Wynn lovers. I go back to Baltimore and AC with Steve Wynn when he was 'normal'.

Rat holing by definition is done to deceive the pit into thinking that you have lost more money than you actually have. It is a dangerous practice unless you thoroughly understand it. Pocketing chips for any other reason is not rat holing since it is not done surreptitiously. The pit will often tell a lucky winner to "lock it up" after they get a black or purple chip. Many players pocket chips as part of reaching a goal or to reenforce their resolve not to spend it.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

I had Susan Savage there and she is the Queen B****h I ever met in my life!! Charlie Ward stepped in for a bit and then ran off to Macau for Steve. I had to many problems there, not in comps, on the floor in basic common sense and logistics. Pain in the butt, they need help there. Sorry for all you Wynn lovers. I go back to Baltimore and AC with Steve Wynn when he was 'normal'.

I'm not a Wynn lover Just pointing out their policy. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

Quote: 1BB

Rat holing by definition is done to deceive the pit into thinking that you have lost more money than you actually have. It is a dangerous practice unless you thoroughly understand it. Pocketing chips for any other reason is not rat holing since it is not done surreptitiously. The pit will often tell a lucky winner to "lock it up" after they get a black or purple chip. Many players pocket chips as part of reaching a goal or to reenforce their resolve not to spend it.

1BB has it right. The term rathole is specific to pocketing money surreptitously. And as far as the pit knowing when you'r ratholing, I just don't believe it. For the PB to notice he'd have to know exactly what you've won or lost on the last few plays before he looks at your stack. Same thing for the dealer. If you rathole when they aren't looking when you make the move then they didn't see the move.

I keep detailed records on every casino I play at. A typical entry might read like this: - $1,685 (they think -$2,300). Of course, this is after several visits. You wouldn't go south with this much in one session.

Quote: bodyforlife

I'm not a Wynn lover Just pointing out their policy. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

It really depends on the host, the floor, the personnel working the desk as to what they give. It also depends on holiday weekend, day of week, and a few other factors. They might have a policy but my experience in comp (and varies property to property) is that they all will comp in proportion to a loss. Might not for $25 or $100 but for thousands, tens of thousands and up, etc.

I have seen people lose money on the table, not huge but substantial and ask for something and they were told their play could not warrant it. Then someone playing a lesser amount gets more than what was just asked for, all because of the players 'rating'. Just saying a 10% loss comp for player 'A' for $4,000.00 might get him $400 in comp immediately. However, player 'B' might very well get $750.00 comp value and he lost $3,000.00, has no available 'points' to take but is a known player. Floor might not do it but a host can.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

It really depends on the host, the floor, the personnel working the desk as to what they give. It also depends on holiday weekend, day of week, and a few other factors. They might have a policy but my experience in comp (and varies property to property) is that they all will comp in proportion to a loss. Might not for $25 or $100 but for thousands, tens of thousands and up, etc.

I have seen people lose money on the table, not huge but substantial and ask for something and they were told their play could not warrant it. Then someone playing a lesser amount gets more than what was just asked for, all because of the players 'rating'. Just saying a 10% loss comp for player 'A' for $4,000.00 might get him $400 in comp immediately. However, player 'B' might very well get $750.00 comp value and he lost $3,000.00, has no available 'points' to take but is a known player. Floor might not do it but a host can.

Yes, of course. The host was lying, it's not their policy (even though they've shown consistency in it), and I never got free rooms. SMH...why bother.

For those that want to understand the math of it....Assuming there are rooms available and it's a "holiday weekend", you would not get a room if you only lost $3k but the rooms were going for $500 a night, because gee....you only get $300 of credit if you only lost $3k (that's 10% of your losses). Yeah, that's how it works based on their policy (quoted from their hosts). Not talking about property to property...talking about the Wynn. This assumes you don't have the average bet and duration required and are only talking about losses). I suspect most people can comprehend what I'm saying here.

Quote: bodyforlife

Actually, it sounds like it's their policy (to comp losses) at the Wynn regardless of the the factors you mentioned. It has nothing to do with the host. That's why I brought it up (just to give the OP an example where duration and average bet was not the only way to get a comp in every instance). We're "generally" in agreement here. No need to beat a dead horse. I simply said "not entirely true" and gave an example where it wasn't.

I am wondering if the policy of comping losses also applies at Route 66 in albuquerque...I played there for the first time last month, was there for 2 days, with perhaps 10, maybe 12 hours at the rail. About 90% of my action was on "free" bets--zero vig...They offer a free buy on the 4 and 10, and before 6pm minimum was only $1, $3 after 6...I was amazed that I had enough comps to get a room at their very nice hotel ($99 but a "players card discount" brought it down to $seventy-something) plus all of the meals that I wanted...I am thinking that they must certainly rate the play on the free bets (what one poster here or somewhere called a bad business policy; I can't disagree). Unfortunately I lost about $700 total but I believe the losses were larger at the time I checked into the hotel so I am thinking retrospectively that part of their very generous comps had to do with the losses...tom p