Debating based on previous trips to the casino
Thanks!
Edit: but, to answer the question, yes. You should play the don't pass. Play it all the time. The house edge is lower than on the pass line.
That being said, if you want to play the don'ts, then you should. After all it is mathematically the better game. Pass Line = 1.41% HE, Don't Pass = 1.36% HE. If you're going to play the don'ts then here's how I would play:
DP until point is established (after the come out your bet is now the 'favorite' as 7 is the most likely number on the dice). The come out is where the HE against the DP comes from. After the point is established you want to take odds. They work the exact opposite of the Pass (2 wins 1 on 4/10, 3 wins 2 on 5/9, 6 wins 5 on 6/8). I would take at least 2x odds (ideally more). It's the same with the Pass/Come bets. Your odds are even money (0% HE) wagers that will dampen the overall HE all the way down to .08 approximately, if you take enough odds).
After the DP/odds are done, as most Pass players play the Come, I then play the Don't Come... Rinse and repeat for a few numbers and stop if you want, but I 'usually' follow the Wizards video and continue playing the DC until the shooter 7's out or hits the point. On the 7 out, you win every bet. On the point, you have the option to continue playing the DP, or let the shooter try to roll a come out winner 7 so you again scoop the rest of your bets.
Do note: unlike the pass line Come bets, your DC bets AND odds are working on the come out (and you want them to be). This is because a come out 7 wins all your DC bets.
The last thing to do: Take note of how Pass players treat you (usually not very well - and for no good reason). Then when you're on the Pass and someone comes to your table playing the DP, think about how that. It's no different than betting on Roulette and you betting red and them betting black. You're both playing against the house, not each other.
Quote: uwf9990Does it make sense to bet on the "Don't pass line" and then to also place bets on numbers like the 6 or 8 to come? Or do you think it makes more sense to just play the don't pass, and leave it at that?
This could be considered hedging bets, which I wouldn't do. If you place the 6, and a 7 comes, you win your DP, but lose your place bet(s). Hedging bets is against one of the Wizards gambling commandments =). Playing the DC's will give you action... especially when you're a 2-1 favorite to win your 4/10 and the shooter rolls numerous 4/10's in a row lol.
Once you're on the DC, and ANY number (4-5-6-8-9-10) is rolled, you WANT your bet to travel to that number, because now you're the favorite to win. Even on the 'dreaded' 6/8, you're still going to win 6/11 times you play those numbers. Why give up that edge to expose your DC to another potential 7 loss?
Quote: rdw4potusThe table is specifically designed to ensure that the outcome of each roll is random. I think you're significantly overestimating the number of "expert" shooters...
Edit: but, to answer the question, yes. You should play the don't pass. Play it all the time. The house edge is lower than on the pass line.
The house edge is lower, but by a very tiny amount. On the pass line, the expected loss is 28 units out of 1980; on the DP, it's 27 out of 1980. You will never notice that difference. The 1.36% figure is misleading, as it counts the pushes in the bet handle. The significant figure is the ev, not the HE, which can be figured different ways. If you don't count the pushes in the bet handle, it's 1.403%.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: uwf9990This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot man. I actually never knew that the odds on DP also pays even money! I think i'm going to try this out when I go Sunday.
The odds on DP DO NOT pay even money; they pay less than the bet amount. What you probably mean is that they are fair bets, in the sense that there is no house advantage. The favorable win probability is balanced by the short payoffs.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: uwf9990Another question.. If you bet on the don't come.. then a point is set, can you put odds down on it? And if so, how do i go about that in a casino? Just say, I'd like x amount on the dont come odds?
One complication on laying odds on DP/DC is that you have to figure the correct amount to bet to pay your single, double, etc. odds. If you are playing for $5 and want to lay single odds, you would bet $6 on 6/8, probably $9 (to win $6) on 5/9 and $10 on 4/10. The single, double, etc. refers to the amount you will WIN, not the amount you bet, unlike the pass line. To lay double odds on a $5 DP/DC, bet $12 on 6/8, $15 on 5/9 and $20 on 4/10, all winning $10, twice your flat bet.
Many casinos now allow what they call "3, 4, 5x odds", which means you can take/lay 3-times odds on 4/10, 4-times odds on 5/9 and 5-times odds on 6/8. On the pass/come, this makes it easy for the dealer: the payoff is always 6 units. On the DP/DC, it makes it easier on the bettor -- you always bet 6 times the flat bet, but win different amounts.
You need to know this stuff, because to lay odds on the don't come you have to put the chips down and tell the dealer, "Odds on my don't come <number>". If you put down the wrong amount, the dealer MAY correct you. For example, if the point is 6 and you lay $10, you won't get the correct payout, because they don't pay fractions of a dollar; this is called "breakage". (10 / 6 * 5 = 8.333; you would get paid $8.)
You might want to start off with just DP and odds until you get comfortable with laying odds.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Many years ago I had a good roll in London where someone was picking up £1900 (for a £200 bet) on every hard 8 I threw - and was doing very nicely thank you. After a few points made, my point was 8 and he kindly made a £25 bet for me (I was only playing £3's). (Sadly I made the easy 8). He had made £10k, while I made £300.
If I do bet Don't, one method is via a Don't Come (which most people ignore and don't realise what it is) and just leave it there (sometimes you have to remind the dealer to put it in behind as some are not used to DC bets). However (assuming you're taking some odds) you're playing Odds On rather than Odds Against - so it's your choice.
Congratulations on being expert enough to have survived a year.
>> I have never really seen a long series of shots from one single shooter.
Be patient. You will.
>> Possibly it's because I'm playing in Biloxi and not in Vegas where there are "experienced shooters".
Biloxi and Vegas have same rules, same dice, same tables.
>> But anyways... I'm wondering if I would be much more profitable if I start playing the "dont pass line" instead of the "pass line"
>> when I see that there are inexperienced people at the table, and when I'm shooting myself (because i am no expert either).
Playing the Don't Side requires a slightly higher bankroll and is pretty much the same thing as playing the right side. Several months ago a woman who had just taken an introductory lesson, held the dice for a record breaking session.
I often shoot "from the don't, hoping they won't" . I often shoot from the right side too.
>> Anyone care to share your thoughts with me? I'll also accept any tips that a semi-beginner should know.
I'll accept any tips too.
Quote: uwf9990I have never really seen a long series of shots from one single shooter.
One reason to stay with rightside betting is, when that day comes, and it will ... at least you will see somebody roll for 30 minutes or something soon enough ... you'll get to experience that with a thrill and not with a busted bankroll!
I play either side, but usually will do darkside when it is a quiet table with good chances I will be the only player at times.
If i bet the dont pass line for $5 and put $10 on the odds once a point is made.
What would be my payout for a
6/8-
5/9-
4/10-
And would it be the same payouts if i were to bet on the dont come and dont come odds?
Thanks in advance. You guys have been a great help.
Quote: uwf9990I'm trying to find a craps calculator to where it will tell me how much i'll win for certain bets, but i can't find any. Can someone just answer this for me here? Since you guys are the math experts here on the game haha.
If i bet the dont pass line for $5 and put $10 on the odds once a point is made.
What would be my payout for a
6/8-
5/9-
4/10-
And would it be the same payouts if i were to bet on the dont come and dont come odds?
Thanks in advance. You guys have been a great help.
these pay 6:5, 3:2, 2:1 and even money for the line, but I should tell you I see a lot of guys go in the wrong direction with their thinking once they focus on payouts. Next thing you know you or some guy will have you working out a bunch of different bet combinations with hedging in full play. This is all mis-directed
Spend some time at Wizardofodds.com and get your head straight.
Quote: uwf9990If i bet the dont pass line for $5 and put $10 on the odds once a point is made.
What would be my payout for a
6/8- >>> every $6 bet as odds pays $5 (5 to 6 or 5:6)
5/9- >>> every $3 bet as odds pays $2 (2 to 3 or 2:3)
4/10- >>> every $2 bet as odds pays $1 (1 to 2 or 1:2)
so your $10 lay odds bet is not a perfect unit bet to get paid true odds
do you see why?
what do you think is the difference between the dpass and a dcome bet? (other than a dcome bet is never made on a come out roll)Quote: uwf9990And would it be the same payouts if i were to bet on the dont come and dont come odds?
Thanks in advance. You guys have been a great help.
Sally
you mean you "have a system"Quote: uwf9990I have a theory on how to play, that just kind of came to me.
I hope it can double a starting bankroll by more than 50%
I have a system(s) too but it really is more about a loss rebate
see my last thread about it if interested
be very careful with mathQuote: uwf9990So i'm working with the math and numbers to see what my odds are on it.
it is way more dangerous than electricity or water or bullets or even Satan
in my opinion
(from watching many spaghetti westerns)
Sally
really?Quote: odiousgambitthese pay 6:5, 3:2, 2:1 <snip>
really?Quote: odiousgambitbut
yes, in my opinion,Quote: odiousgambitI should tell you I see a lot of guys go in the wrong direction <snip> <SNIP>
guys are the worst craps players ever.
Women rule at Craps.
longest verified shooter hand >>> yes, a woman who also is a grandma
I agree it is very difficult to be a lifetime craps winner (as I am) as a guy that is
because you start out so deep in a hole with a small shovel
in me opinion that is
Love you Patricia
Sally
If I take the dont pass for $5 and once a point is set, put x2 odds down behind it.
Then bet on the dont come for $5 and once a point is set there, but x2 odds down behind it.
The most i can lose in a single roll is $18. And that is if the point is a 6 or 8 and it is rolled again.
Yes I will occasionally lose $5 on come out rolls from 7's and 11's.
But when a 7 is rolled and I have multiple points set from dont come bets.. I feel like I should make a decent amount. I just feel like with this "strategy" I won't really be "risking" a lot of money.
Compared to putting 5 on the pass line, 10 on the odds, and betting points... then having a 7 come and wipe out all of it at once.
I'm obviously not the first person to think of something like this. But any thoughts would be appreciated.
Quote: mustangsally
Women rule at Craps.
Hahaha I totally agree with this. Any girl that i've ever seen at the table has been winning.
Quote: charliepatrickMathematically it's correct to bet on the Don't Pass (or sneakily on the Don't Come so you're not actually against the point). If I'm on my own I continue until three numbers are established and then start praying for the 7. However when shooting at a busy table you more-or-less have to change sides (although I have stayed dark occasionally).
Why do you say you "have to" change sides at a busy table?
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: uwf9990I'm trying to find a craps calculator to where it will tell me how much i'll win for certain bets, but i can't find any. Can someone just answer this for me here? Since you guys are the math experts here on the game haha.
You can download WinCraps at www.cloudcitysoftware.com for free (demo mode). You can experiment with different kinds of bets. For only $10, you can get a fully functional copy of the "Classic" version. The Help files are an excellent introduction to craps.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
nice observation I sayQuote: uwf9990From playing from my limited amount of time, I've noticed that the majority of people lose their money on "the wipe" when a 7 comes and cleans house. I was thinking of taking advantage of that moment.
did you also notice, exactly, how much they won before they lost?
That to me seems mighty important just as the color of their shoes.
ughQuote: uwf9990If I take the dont pass for $5 and once a point is set, put x2 odds down behind it.
Then bet on the dont come for $5 and once a point is set there, but x2 odds down behind it.
you are making too may bets, in my opinion.
answer this
why do you play craps?
Is it to win $X amount of money each time you play a part of your one lifetime session
or
to play for a certain minimum of time or bets before bed time
I say make one big bet and sit and wait
I HATE the dont pass
I like Lay bets even better. win on any 7
simple
Lifetime winner with them.
got to love winning with sucker bets so the experts say
Sally
Quote: mustangsally
answer this
why do you play craps?
Is it to win $X amount of money each time you play a part of your one lifetime session
or
to play for a certain minimum of time or bets before bed time
Sally
For the fun, and if i can find a way to win more, i'd love to do that obviously.
Quote: mustangsally
I like Lay bets even better. win on any 7
simple
I think the dont come ends up being a better bet. Because the point would have to be rolled twice before a 7 instead of only once with a lay bet.
Quote: RomesOh, one last note! If you're playing the DC and a 6 or 8 comes up some really crappy dealers will ask you if you want "No Action." Don't EVER say "No Action." Some people think 6/8 are almost 'even' and therefor more likely to lose than say a 4. While this is correct, a 6 is more likely than a 4, that doesn't matter. Once you get pass the "come out" throw, your bet is the FAVORITE on ANY number. Saying "No Action" keeps your bet on the DC, exposing it to the "come out" roll again, and thus making the HE twice as large (or more if you do it a couple times).
Once you're on the DC, and ANY number (4-5-6-8-9-10) is rolled, you WANT your bet to travel to that number, because now you're the favorite to win. Even on the 'dreaded' 6/8, you're still going to win 6/11 times you play those numbers. Why give up that edge to expose your DC to another potential 7 loss?
Lightbulb! Thanks, Romes...I read this 3 times and finally got the subtlety you're describing.
So let me ask you, or someone who "gets" the dark side bets. What happens to a DC bet when it's travelled to a number that's not the point, and then the point is rolled? Does it remain, like Come bets do, or lose?
Is it "off" unless you call it "on" until the next point is rolled?
What happens if the point is reached (assuming it remains on the DC of a different number) and a 7 is rolled on the subsequent comeout? Thanks!
Quote: beachbumbabsLightbulb! Thanks, Romes...I read this 3 times and finally got the subtlety you're describing.
So let me ask you, or someone who "gets" the dark side bets. What happens to a DC bet when it's travelled to a number that's not the point, and then the point is rolled? Does it remain, like Come bets do, or lose?
Is it "off" unless you call it "on" until the next point is rolled?
What happens if the point is reached (assuming it remains on the DC of a different number) and a 7 is rolled on the subsequent comeout? Thanks!
If the DC travels to a number (not the point) and the point is rolled, it remains an active contract bet and is 'on' for the come out roll. If the seven is rolled the DC wins as does the new pass bet. If a new point is established, then you're still looking for a 7 to pay off the DC
Quote: beachbumbabs
So let me ask you, or someone who "gets" the dark side bets. What happens to a DC bet when it's travelled to a number that's not the point, and then the point is rolled? Does it remain, like Come bets do, or lose?
point is 6, DC bet, roll is 5, DC goes behind 5 (you may lay odds), next roll is 6, passline wins, DC stays behind 5, any odds working
Quote: beachbumbabsIs it "off" unless you call it "on" until the next point is rolled?
DC and odds are always on by default. You can call them off or take them down, but don't do it. They will always let you take down a bet on which you have the advantage.
Quote: beachbumbabsWhat happens if the point is reached (assuming it remains on the DC of a different number) and a 7 is rolled on the subsequent comeout? Thanks!
This winner seven is also a winner for you. The only time you lose on a 7 is the comeout roll for DP or when your DC bet is in the DC box, i.e. ITS comeout roll.
The only difference between DP and DC is the timing, just like between pass and come.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
All those Come Bets (and the odds on them, if any) have their OWN puck... the stack of chips itself acts as a puck for that bet and is positioned to point to the place where whoever made it is standing.
On a come out roll normally odds are considered "off" and so the dealers don't have to physically take them off and then replace them. However, I believe its to a player's advantage to declare his odds are always on.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Put $5 on dont pass line.
After a point has been set, put $10 on dont pass odds, and place a $5 dont come bet.
Then if another number is rolled, place odds on that dont come bet, and place another dont come bet.
You keep going with this until a 7 is rolled. Once a 7 is rolled, you will lose your dont come bet, but you will win every other dont come bet and the odds for them.
The most that you can lose on a single shooter is really low, and the amount that you can win, is relatively high.
The only way that you lose, is if the shooter keeps rolling the same number over and over and over. The chances of him rolling a single number between 4 and 10 consecutively like 4 times in a row is extremely unlikely.
hahaQuote: uwf9990I really think I'm on to something here... I've been trying this on the Bovada Casino online. Granted it's play chips, But the same payouts and everything. Here's what i've done...
Put $5 on dont pass line.
After a point has been set, put $10 on dont pass odds, and place a $5 dont come bet.
wait until you play more times,
oh and not on a free-play online casino unless you can see all the code that runs that game
but you really should be playing for real money
as no one, I think, has ever played the way you suggest
and turned the casino into their own ATM
===============================
in my opinion, an awful (bad) betting system
your $10 lay odds for every point number is awful (in other words: yuck!)
you are truly making sucker bets
and the best part is you do not know why
you need to place $12 odds when a point is 6 or 8 to win $10
NEVER lay $10 odds on any point of 5,6,8 or 9
UNLESS
the payout is exactly $50/6 (for 6 and 8)
the payout is exactly $20/3 (for 5 and 9)
Sally
The only way that you end up losing a decent amount is in the situation of:
Roll. Point of 6. Roll 6. Roll point of 6. Roll 6. Roll point of 6. Roll 6.
And the odds of that happening are very slim.
If it does not work, I'll also let you know that you were correct.
Quote: FleaStiff
On a come out roll normally odds are considered "off" and so the dealers don't have to physically take them off and then replace them. However, I believe its to a player's advantage to declare his odds are always on.
Only come odds are "off" by default; DC odds are on. If you want a bet not to follow the default, you need to tell the dealer, like "My come odds always work", and he/she will put a little "on" button on the little stack of odds chips (only on one of them if you have more than one). Place bets, too, are "off" by default on the comeout rolls; here again, to can "work" them. One of the marks of a good dealer is remembering your style of play, so you don't have to tell him/her every time that your come odds work, or if you're always "off and on with odds". Let's say you have a $10 come bet on six and $20 odds, plus $10 in the come box. If the six hits the dealer will just give you $34 and leave the come six, odds and new come bet. If the dealer gave you the winning plus the bet ($64) and put your $10 come in the six box, you would have to give him $20 for the new odds bets and put $10 in the come box, a waste of everybody's time, but you have to tell the dealer that's the way you want to play. This doesn't apply to DC, because when a number hits, you lose, so when your new DC bet goes behind the number, you have to give the dealer $$$ for odds and place a new DC bet.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: uwf9990I really think I'm on to something here... I've been trying this on the Bovada Casino online. Granted it's play chips, But the same payouts and everything. Here's what i've done...
Put $5 on dont pass line.
After a point has been set, put $10 on dont pass odds, and place a $5 dont come bet.
Then if another number is rolled, place odds on that dont come bet, and place another dont come bet.
You keep going with this until a 7 is rolled. Once a 7 is rolled, you will lose your dont come bet, but you will win every other dont come bet and the odds for them.
The most that you can lose on a single shooter is really low, and the amount that you can win, is relatively high.
The only way that you lose, is if the shooter keeps rolling the same number over and over and over. The chances of him rolling a single number between 4 and 10 consecutively like 4 times in a row is extremely unlikely.
You are not analyzing this correctly. If you keep making DC bets, you may get lots of them behind point numbers. If the shooter makes a lot of points, you can get hammered big time. Yes, you only lose one at a time, but for sure some shooter is going to whack you. If this weren't the case, everyone would play this way and the casinos would go broke.
How many times do people have to tell you that you should not lay $10 on the six? You will not get a correct payout.
You have a LOT to learn.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: mustangsallyhaha
wait until you play more times
Sally, I'm actually doing all of these trials to try and "disprove" the strategy. because obviously I don't think it will work all the time. There has to be some sort of flaw in it, as I am not a genius, and I'm sure someone else has thought of this before me.
I'm just curious as to what would make it not work.
Quote: uwf9990I'm definitely going to try it out Sunday when I am able to go to the casino. And again, I'm not "laying" every number. I'm just putting don't come bets on every roll. Do they turn into lay bets? Yes. But.. Only after being rolled once before. Which statistically should increase the likelyhood of a 7 coming before it comes again.
You don't know the terminology. Sally is using the word "lay" for laying odds, not a "lay bet". You said that you were laying odds on your DP and DC bets.
" Which statistically should increase the likelyhood of a 7 coming before it comes again. "
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!!!! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!
You are a danger to yourself, usf9990!
There's nothing wrong with playing DP/DC with odds, but you had better learn the right odds amounts and understand that the probability of the seven NEVER CHANGES.
Good luck,
Alan Shank
Quote: goatcabinIf you keep making DC bets, you may get lots of them behind point numbers. If the shooter makes a lot of points, you can get hammered big time. Yes, you only lose one at a time, but for sure some shooter is going to whack you.
I understand the fact that if someone was to hit a lot of points over and over that it would crush the system.
I'm curious to find out how many points they would need to hit to make you lose. And then how often is someone going to hit that many points.
That would let me know if the strategy has a chance to succeed.
Quote: uwf9990The only way that you lose, is if the shooter keeps rolling the same number over and over and over. The chances of him rolling a single number between 4 and 10 consecutively like 4 times in a row is extremely unlikely.
The other way that you lose is when there are consecutive sevens and you lose your DP each time.
Many people play just this way on the pass/come. As you have observed, they will tend to win a bit here and there and then take a big loss when a seven is rolled and they have a pass line and several come bets on the table with odds on all of them.
Playing the don'ts like this means you will tend to have a few small losses here and there as streaks of 7/11/points occur. That will hopefully be offset by a big win when a seven comes while you have a lot of bets out.
As others have pointed out, the house edge is almost identical either way, with a tiny benefit to playing the don'ts. However, the psychology of the win pattern is different. I admit playing your way sounds kind of fun, but I never play the don'ts. I find it more fun to play with the table and I am not used to the proper amounts to lay. Also the larger lay bets require a bigger bankroll.
Quote: goatcabin
" Which statistically should increase the likelyhood of a 7 coming before it comes again. "
You are 100% correct that on any given roll, rolling a 7 has the same chance of rolling. But if we look at a course of 5 rolls, the chances of someone rolling the same number 5 times in a row when there's a 16.667% chance of it happening, has to be pretty slim.
rolling the same 5 numbers in a row is not the only way for you to loseQuote: uwf9990You are 100% correct that on any given roll, rolling a 7 has the same chance of rolling.
But if we look at a course of 5 rolls, the chances of someone rolling the same number 5 times in a row when there's a 16.667% chance of it happening, has to be pretty slim.
how about this sequence
new shooter (it was me at the Plaza)
7 << you just lost your dpass bet
6 << dpass point established
8 << dcome point established
11 << dcome bet lost
10 << dcome point established
10 << dcome10 and lay odds lost << dcome point established
12 << Hello
8 << dcome8 and lay odds lost << dcome point established
10 << dcome10 and lay odds lost << dcome point established
7 out
cool
won 3 bets with odds
how much $$$ did you win and lose?
about $19 lost estimated (I could be wrong)
you won your dpass but your dcomes were getting hit
try some more
this is what simulations are for
I second playing the WinCraps program (for windows only - or try the Craps game here at WoV)
your idea is so easy to simulate but
you say you bet $10 on odds every time (yuk) and then
not every time so this is confusing exactly what you do and when you do it
Sally
Quote: mustangsallyreally?
really?
yes, in my opinion,
guys are the worst craps players ever.
Women rule at Craps.
longest verified shooter hand >>> yes, a woman who also is a grandma
I agree it is very difficult to be a lifetime craps winner (as I am) as a guy that is
because you start out so deep in a hole with a small shovel
in me opinion that is
Love you Patricia
Sally
Oh, Sally, that's what I get for taking the bait, you never forget, and you keep dangling more bait. Call me Patricia all you want but the only 'love' coming from you I will see is for my goat, which you are still trying to get *sigh*
huh?Quote: odiousgambitOh, Sally, that's what I get for taking the bait, you never forget, and you keep dangling more bait.
huh?Quote: odiousgambitCall me Patricia all you want <snip>
Patricia holds the craps record silly
Oh, my newest friend Heather
sounds sweet and right on!
plug
https://twitter.com/vegas_aces
Sally
