Prohibiting Don't Play
This weekend I noted players shunned a vocal Don't player, leaving his side of the table empty, except for him, while the other end was jammed.
Of course there is nothing wrong with Don't betting, and the casinos welcome their play; but many players do not seem to enjoy playing at a table where there is Don't action.
So, would it be viable for a larger casino, such as MGM or Wynn, to offer one table without any Don't bets on the layout or otherwise permitted?
Quote: DeucekiesHe was vocal? Like he was yelling "Come on, seven!"?
I'm play both sides, but am mostly a DP/DC player. I never root for the 7, or even get very excited when it hits, other than maybe a grin to my brother who's also on the DP/DC.
With that said, it's funny that it's the accepted "norm" that Pass players can cheer, and DP players can't. Why can you root for your money, but I can't root for mine? If all of you bet red on roulette and I bet black, can't we all root for our money all the same?
The only reason it's less "acceptable" socially is because they used to not allow don't bets and no one ever played them. It's funny when you mention the DP/DC is mathematically a better bet (with odds) because so many pass line players don't even know that. I also frequently have to remind Pass line players who accuse me of betting against them, that I am not betting against them, and that I am in fact just betting the most likely number. Hell, when I get 4+ DC's out and the point hits (picking my DP off) I'll still cheer and then root for a come out 7 so everyone wins.
It just frustrates me though that the same damn common curtsies don't apply both directions. I've come across VERY FEW Pass players that don't have a care in the world that I play the Don't. Quite often I find that people have no problem chiming in about how I shouldn't bet that. Then I mention the math and say "either way it's a house game, I'm just trying a different approach" and yet they'll still somehow find it acceptable to harass me. Don't get me wrong, after one or two comments I WILL start rooting for the 7, and cheering when I win. There is ZERO reason why I should sit there and take ANY verbal abuse, from ANYONE. It's just funny because only Pass players seem to get their panties in a bunch about superstitious things such as having a DP player at the table. Grow up.
Quote: RomesI'm play both sides, but am mostly a DP/DC player. I never root for the 7, or even get very excited when it hits, other than maybe a grin to my brother who's also on the DP/DC.
With that said, it's funny that it's the accepted "norm" that Pass players can cheer, and DP players can't. Why can you root for your money, but I can't root for mine? If all of you bet red on roulette and I bet black, can't we all root for our money all the same?
The only reason it's less "acceptable" socially is because they used to not allow don't bets and no one ever played them. It's funny when you mention the DP/DC is mathematically a better bet (with odds) because so many pass line players don't even know that. I also frequently have to remind Pass line players who accuse me of betting against them, that I am not betting against them, and that I am in fact just betting the most likely number. Hell, when I get 4+ DC's out and the point hits (picking my DP off) I'll still cheer and then root for a come out 7 so everyone wins.
It just frustrates me though that the same damn common curtsies don't apply both directions. I've come across VERY FEW Pass players that don't have a care in the world that I play the Don't. Quite often I find that people have no problem chiming in about how I shouldn't bet that. Then I mention the math and say "either way it's a house game, I'm just trying a different approach" and yet they'll still somehow find it acceptable to harass me. Don't get me wrong, after one or two comments I WILL start rooting for the 7, and cheering when I win. There is ZERO reason why I should sit there and take ANY verbal abuse, from ANYONE. It's just funny because only Pass players seem to get their panties in a bunch about superstitious things such as having a DP player at the table. Grow up.
Well said.
This was done long ago at Terribles Casino. A neophyte trainee took a razor and shaved the lettering off the felt leaving just the empty Don'tPass box.Quote: MrVSo, would it be viable for a larger casino, such as MGM or Wynn, to offer one table without any Don't bets on the layout or otherwise permitted?
The game in a casino is Bank Craps... the house books all bets. I still remember the time a stick man told me "Pregnant woman is the shooter; no Don't Pass bets not permitted".... I winked at the Box and moved my bet to the pass line, which turned out to be good because the new shooter made her point.
Quote: MrV
So, would it be viable for a larger casino, such as MGM or Wynn, to offer one table without any Don't bets on the layout or otherwise permitted?
I hope they never do this, because in my opinion, the ability to bet "both sides" (almost anyway) is one of the great things about craps!
Quote: MrVI wonder whether a business case could be made for larger casinos to offer craps players the option of a craps table that has no "Don't" options available, i.e. no DP, DC, no lay bets allowed?
They already do, it's called Crapless Craps, where most casinos do not allow lay bets. The passline (and come bets) have a casino edge equal to a field bet where 2 and 12 pay double. One can tell the fool at a crapless game: He would be the one making come bets.
Quote: DeucekiesHe was vocal? Like he was yelling "Come on, seven!"?
I once was at a table by myself at one end playing PL/come and one guy alone at the other end playing DP/DC. He kept passing the dice back to me, and every time I rolled he kept yelling "How many days in a week, baby?"
Quote: MrVI wonder whether a business case could be made for larger casinos to offer craps players the option of a craps table that has no "Don't" options available, i.e. no DP, DC, no lay bets allowed? ....So, would it be viable for a larger casino, such as MGM or Wynn, to offer one table without any Don't bets on the layout or otherwise permitted?
Well, given that the house has an advantage on both sides, it would seem strange to limit the opportunity to spread the action. Taking action on both sides allows them to limit their exposure to some degree, and they still have an advantage on the don't bet courtesy of the "bar 12".
Although a casino would be crazy to use rigged dice and risk their license, they'd be even crazier to use rigged dice and allow don't betting. Therefore if you remove the don't betting from the layout, you would raise suspicions about the dice.
Quote: DeucekiesHe was vocal? Like he was yelling "Come on, seven!"?
We have a guy at my casino who does this. Most players despise him.
I look at betting the Don'ts the way I look at going to a sporting event and rooting for the other team - you probably won't be popular, and expect the stick calls to be biased toward the other side, but it's your prerogative if you're not an obnoxious twit about it. (The exception is if there are more Don't bettors.)
.jpeg "Bohemian"){kind=small}
Quote: MrVThis weekend I noted players shunned a vocal Don't player, leaving his side of the table empty, except for him, while the other end was jammed.
Of course there is nothing wrong with Don't betting, and the casinos welcome their play; but many players do not seem to enjoy playing at a table where there is Don't action.
Most Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves. It is easy to convince 3 or 4 players all to pass the dice until the DP player leaves, but we have done it with as many as 8 players at the table.
Other times it is fun to set for the 7 or 11 and knock them off on the Come-out. They eventually get the hint.
Quote: BohemianMost Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves. It is easy to convince 3 or 4 players all to pass the dice until the DP player leaves, but we have done it with as many as 8 players at the table.
Other times it is fun to set for the 7 or 11 and knock them off on the Come-out. They eventually get the hint.
Make us leave? WTF? I agree that obnoxious players at the table (regardless of how they are betting) are annoying, but if a darkside player is quietly making money, don't blame us!
Darth
Ahhh, they're just jealous saps.Quote: darthvaderMake us leave? WTF? I agree that obnoxious players at the table (regardless of how they are betting) are annoying, but if a darkside player is quietly making money, don't blame us!
Nothing wrong with it.
But I see others at the table who are uncomfortable with it.
They get pissed watching while others win on a seven-out, and gloat when a point is made.
I suppose it could be some form of instinctive dislike for those contrarians who choose not to join the herd.
Quote: BohemianMost Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves .
I play the dark side only once in a while, but I must be the odd ball because I like it when don't players are at the table. Especially if they are big money players. Two reasons: 1) Increases my confidence that the game is fair, and 2) If I lose, I sort of relish the fact that some of the money is going to another player and not to the house!
Quote: BohemianMost Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves. It is easy to convince 3 or 4 players all to pass the dice until the DP player leaves, but we have done it with as many as 8 players at the table.
Other times it is fun to set for the 7 or 11 and knock them off on the Come-out. They eventually get the hint.
Congratulations on being an asshole to completely random people whom are playing against the house just like you are. The game offers multiple ways to bet; don't players are just trying another way to beat the house.
As said prior, if someone's a dick at the table (pass or don't pass player) then yes they should be removed/leave/etc... but to do this to someone just for playing the same game a different way... That's just pathetic. It shows you have literally no understanding of mathematics, or how the game you love even works... SAME DICE!
Last Night
I was at my local casino and played some craps for about 30-45 minutes (short session). I play either way the table is going, but more predominately DP/DC. The table was 7-out after 7-out so I'm on the DP/DC and doing fairly well. Some guy walks up to the table in the next shooter position, bets on the pass, and then starts mocking myself and the other guy at the other end of the table for playing the don't. He sets a point, then starts shouting "off the don't chips! I'll show them!" He was trying to hit our don't bets at the other end of the table because superstitious people think that's bad luck. On his 4th attempt (after setting me up with a few DC's) he finally hit my chips, and as karma would have it 7-out. He was being a huge dick to us for no reason at a table where we were the established players and he was just walking up to the table. I'll never understand why people feel the need to be dicks like that... Nor why it's ONLY FROM PASS LINE PLAYERS. DP players apparently have a lot more class.
Quote: RomesCongratulations on being an asshole
oops, better read the forum rules ...
but our boy Bohemian? gee, how would a silly idea like 'Darkside players being a problem' ever find its way inside his head?
Quote: odiousgambitoops, better read the forum rules ...
I'm simply pointing out what he made himself out to be =). It's awful, and pathetic, to treat other human beings that have no ill will towards you with such disrespect.
Quote: RomesI'm simply pointing out what he made himself out to be =). It's awful, and pathetic, to treat other human beings that have no ill will towards you with such disrespect.
Don't you see this post of yours being exactly what you say of the other poster? I don't see where he bared you any ill will before the name calling?
Quote: petroglyphDon't you see this post of yours being exactly what you say of the other poster? I don't see where he bared you any ill will before the name calling?
Read the prior posts. He bared ill will to everyone who plays or has played the Don't Pass in a craps game. Claiming such things as getting the table to pass the dice to the don't players to force them off the table, etc. It's clearly stated that he's been rude to many people, for apparently zero reason other than playing against the house a different way.
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.Quote: RomesRead the prior posts. He bared ill will to everyone who plays or has played the Don't Pass in a craps game.
Quote:Claiming such things as getting the table to pass the dice to the don't players to force them off the table, etc.
I was only referring to the board, and the rules here in.
Again whatever happens at the tables is real and this is virtual where rules often apply. I personally invite people to bet right or left side, I couldn't care less and bet both ways myself. I don't want any ill will at the table. I have had people who want to bet the dp when I have a come out and they hold off waiting and then betting the dc. I tell them right away no problem. I do respect courtesy though and don't like chips thrown across my field of vision or other rude acts.Quote:It's clearly stated that he's been rude to many people, for apparently zero reason other than playing against the house a different way.
I just wanted to point out you were doing to him what you were remarking about. No problem, bet anyway you want. I prefer an equal number of right to left bets actually.
I just went back and read some of B's posts and didn't pick up on anything being personal. I was trying to give you a heads up as did another poster so you don't get barred,,,,, your call.
Quote: BohemianMost Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves. It is easy to convince 3 or 4 players all to pass the dice until the DP player leaves, but we have done it with as many as 8 players at the table.
Other times it is fun to set for the 7 or 11 and knock them off on the Come-out. They eventually get the hint.
I'm a Dont player. Its me against the dice and the house. Thats all. I enjoy the dont because If I survive the come out, its all downhill and fun because the odds are in my favor. Most dice rolls are to try to hit a point. Might as well have a bet in your favor if you going to watch somebody throw the dice trying to hit a point.
I switch to pass when I get the dice. If I myself go on a real long roll, I want to profit, after my roll, switch back to Dont after my roll is over. Would love to play at your table.
A crowded table with just me a dont better betting pass because everybody else refuses to throw. Too funny. Yea that will get me to leave, an absurd situation turned hillarious. If I have a crowd watching me, why leave, you are encouraging me to stay. Now if everybody else leaves the table, only then will I leave. I'm a dont bettor, its only fun at a crowded table.
Quote: DeucekiesYou're allowed to shoot while betting the Don't side, yeah?
Of course
Stickman "Shooting from the dont, hoping he wont"
If you lose your bet, you keep shooting :-)
That said, I understand why a lot of players don't like the Don't players: because, first and foremost, craps has a social aspect (very few players enjoy playing as the only person at a table). That means the Don't players don't cheer when the others do, etc. Not that anyone has to cheer, mind you.
So most players have an "us against the house" mentality (as they should) and notice that the Don't players go against them. And therefore they subconsciously think the Don't players go FOR the house. "If you're not for me then you're against me" mentality. Even though they should view Don't players as totally independent of them.
Of course, most craps players don't know the meaning of the term "independent" from a P&S standpoint.
Yes, ridiculous, I know, but I play craps for entertainment and this just adds to the entertainment value for me.
I have had some wonderful experiences with Don't players. Recently, one Don't player (a very nice, fun guy) told me on my come out rolls that if I crapped out he'd replace my bet. He did that for every come out roll of mine. And then he also made that deal for his own come out rolls too!
Well now! That suddenly changes the game into positive expected value territory! :)
I took full advantage of it too (I also picked that time to tip the dealer after establishing that the guy would give the same deal to the dealer's tip I put down on the pass line -- a true gentleman).
A very nice, fun, guy. He eventually moved over next to me, changed to betting the Pass Line (as well as his other side bets) and we both had a lot of fun.
And when Don't players win (especially a lot) I feel happy, even though I lost; I enjoy seeing people win. I look at it this way: I would have lost anyway even without the Don't player there. With the Don't player there at least *someone* won! But then, I don't get envious either which I suppose makes me a human freak.
Quote: terapinedOf course
Stickman "Shooting from the dont, hoping he wont"
If you lose your bet, you keep shooting :-)
Perfect for martingale!
Quote: RomesCongratulations on being an asshole to completely random people whom are playing against the house just like you are. The game offers multiple ways to bet; don't players are just trying another way to beat the house.
He's playng hardball, but it doesn't rise to the level of being an A...... .
An A...... would say something rude and insulting (ahem).
Under the scenario as described it wasn't just one guy, it was all the right siders passing the dice to the dark sider.
No rules were violated.
The dark sider had a choice: shoot or leave.
It's no different than right siders all passing the dice to allow a hot shooter to continue shooting after finally sevening out after a great roll.
I rarely roll dem bones myself, as I am a place bettor; does my eschewing shooting make me an A...... too?
I may be an A...... in the eyes of some, but it ain't because I chose to pass the dice.
Quote: MrVThe dark sider had a choice: shoot or leave.
It's no different than right siders all passing the dice to allow a hot shooter to continue shooting after finally sevening out after a great roll.
First, I shoot from the don't... As I learned to accept years ago by traditional standards, I "suck" at craps. I 7-out pretty much after 3 rolls (great for the DP/DC lol). Secondly, I find it rude if a Don't player doesn't want to shoot to "force" him to or to leave. That is very rude and uncalled for because again, the Don't player isn't playing "against" you, you're both against the house! Lastly, it's quite different to pass to a hot shooter. This is to keep the "hot streak" going, and not to single someone out to put pressure on them ultimately with the hopes that they'll leave the table.
I don't care either way if someone wants to roll or not, as it has no effect on anything. The only thing I do see as being exceedingly rude is putting spiteful pressure on someone whom has nothing to do with pass line players nor their bets to try to make them leave because Pass Line players are generally superstitious people whom clearly doesn't understand both the game, the math, and especially don't understand how to return the common courtesy/respect that the majority of DP players give them.
I'm not. It was an accurate characterization that another took exception to, but not a swipe at the poster ad hominem. The post was borderline venomous IMNSHO and thus the characterization justified.Quote: DeMangoI am shocked there are no names in red this morning.
Quote: RomesFirst, I shoot from the don't... As I learned to accept years ago by traditional standards, I "suck" at craps. I 7-out pretty much after 3 rolls (great for the DP/DC lol). Secondly, I find it rude if a Don't player doesn't want to shoot to "force" him to or to leave. That is very rude and uncalled for because again, the Don't player isn't playing "against" you, you're both against the house! Lastly, it's quite different to pass to a hot shooter. This is to keep the "hot streak" going, and not to single someone out to put pressure on them ultimately with the hopes that they'll leave the table.
I don't care either way if someone wants to roll or not, as it has no effect on anything. The only thing I do see as being exceedingly rude is putting spiteful pressure on someone whom has nothing to do with pass line players nor their bets to try to make them leave because Pass Line players are generally superstitious people whom clearly doesn't understand both the game, the math, and especially don't understand how to return the common courtesy/respect that the majority of DP players give them.
Well said. and I completely agree with you (except I don't play the Dark Side).
You have to realize in your gut (not your intellect) that very last thing you wrote: that most players don't understand the game and have tons of superstitions. Let's even forget about trying to make them understand the arithmetic involved (I can't dignify it with the term "math" by the way -- not at that level at least -- I consider myself overeducated, but it still came as a shock to me a LONG time after I started playing craps that most players didn't have a clue about basic P&S and didn't understand why (say) betting the 12 would lose them a lot more money in the long run than betting the pass line).
So I suggest you do what I do: look at it as added entertainment value for your money. It helps enormously. I could never enjoy playing blackjack or poker (I do very well playing those games -- we have them here locally in the Southeast Florida area where I live -- sadly, we don't have craps); those games bore me to tears. And I don't need to play casino games to make a living -- I seek nothing more than aesthetic distraction.
But it astonishes me that a casino would actively participate in trying to get a paying customer to leave for no reason. If the players all decided that (ala your passing the dice to a hot shooter): well, sure, they have that right and I've participated in that sort of thing (and the don't players have usually left by then). But casino employees encouraging that? I consider that amazingly stupid from a business standpoint. But then, I've noticed that the casino employees (all the way up to and including the pit bosses) fit your description in terms of "superstitious" and "not understanding the math" (yeah, they understand the mechanics of the game of course; they have to so they can keep their jobs).
All you Dark Side players can play with me anytime! And when you win I'll feel happy about it too. Shall I let you all know when/where I go on my next trip to Las Vegas?
I suppose we should consider this issue more a commentary on the human race than on anything else. You'd think that when all the Right Side players lose they'd feel happy that at least *someone* won something off the casino! But they don't. I've noticed that most players show nothing but envy when someone other than them wins.
I can give one more technical explanation if it helps, from game theory (I have way way too much education). Most players consider craps a zero sum game (whether they know the term or not). So naturally they view a Dark Side player as going against them. If they just stopped and thought about it for a moment they'd realize that no self-respecting casino would allow that (for long). But most craps players don't think about anything arithmetical.
More entertainment value.
Quote: RomesFirst, I shoot from the don't... As I learned to accept years ago by traditional standards, I "suck" at craps. I 7-out pretty much after 3 rolls (great for the DP/DC lol). Secondly, I find it rude if a Don't player doesn't want to shoot to "force" him to or to leave. That is very rude and uncalled for because again, the Don't player isn't playing "against" you, you're both against the house! Lastly, it's quite different to pass to a hot shooter. This is to keep the "hot streak" going, and not to single someone out to put pressure on them ultimately with the hopes that they'll leave the table.
I don't care either way if someone wants to roll or not, as it has no effect on anything. The only thing I do see as being exceedingly rude is putting spiteful pressure on someone whom has nothing to do with pass line players nor their bets to try to make them leave because Pass Line players are generally superstitious people whom clearly doesn't understand both the game, the math, and especially don't understand how to return the common courtesy/respect that the majority of DP players give them.
I played Friday morning at Rivers. Started on the PL, but lost quickly so I changed to the DP/DC and made back all the losses and then some. I threw several times from the Don't, and of course, on one of them I had the dice for about 25 minutes and made a 4 point Fire (I wasn't on it, but 3 or 4 other players were).
Quote: BohemianMost Don't Players will not toss the dice so what we often do at Caesar's and Bellagio in LV to get rid of DP players is to simply pass the dice around the table until the dealers shut down the game and the DP player leaves. It is easy to convince 3 or 4 players all to pass the dice until the DP player leaves, but we have done it with as many as 8 players at the table.
Other times it is fun to set for the 7 or 11 and knock them off on the Come-out. They eventually get the hint.
I play the don't almost exclusively. When the dice come to me, I put a table minimum bet on the pass line and shoot until I lose. If I win, I put the won chip on the rail and shoot again.
I go back to the don't when I pass the dice.
