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spadeknight
spadeknight
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
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August 18th, 2014 at 3:17:49 PM permalink
Ive seen some people play the iron cross in live play as well as make some videos on youtube about it. In both instances i observe that the basic problem arises when you bet on the 5 6 8 and the field simultaneously. you will lose in the field if the top of the cross hits and wont hit enough on the bottom to make it worth it in the field. If you want to bet both the 5 6 8 and field numbers then split your field bet numbers on the prop bets which pay more. they are still one roll bets and you get paid more to boot. the only other numbers you get any action on in the field is the 4 9 and 10. in which case you get odds placing and buying. so the whole logic behind playing the cross doesnt make sense to me from an odds perspective of getting more for each dollar you bet.
Winner 7! Pay the line
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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August 18th, 2014 at 7:51:38 PM permalink
Quote: spadeknight

Ive seen some people play the iron cross in live play as well as make some videos on youtube about it. In both instances i observe that the basic problem arises when you bet on the 5 6 8 and the field simultaneously. you will lose in the field if the top of the cross hits and wont hit enough on the bottom to make it worth it in the field. If you want to bet both the 5 6 8 and field numbers then split your field bet numbers on the prop bets which pay more. they are still one roll bets and you get paid more to boot. the only other numbers you get any action on in the field is the 4 9 and 10. in which case you get odds placing and buying. so the whole logic behind playing the cross doesnt make sense to me from an odds perspective of getting more for each dollar you bet.



There are four possible scenarios for the Iron Cross wager, based on the two most important criteria affecting the house advantage, viz-a-viz whether the Field 12 pays 2:1 or 3:1 and whether Buys collect commissions on every bet or just on wins:

Scenario 1: The Field 12 only pays double and Buy bets surrender commission on every resolution, win or lose

In this case, you'll Place (rather than Buy) the 5 @ $5 a pop, Place $6 on each the Six and the 8, and Field bet $5 per roll. The total amount bet will be $5 x 10 5-box resolutions in 36 rolls = $50, $6 x 2 x 11 = $132 on the Six and 8, and $5 x 36 = $180 on the Field, or $362 in all. In 36 rolls, the return will be $48 from the 5, $130 from the Six and 8, and $170 from the Field, or $348 in all, a deficit of $14, and thus a house edge E = -$14/$362 = -3.867%.

Scenario 2: The Field 12 only pays double, but Buy bets surrender commission only on wins

Here, Buying the 5 at $21 (not $20) a bet is optimal ($210 in all) and proportionally placing $24 at a time each on the Six and 8 ($528 in all) and $20 per roll on the Field ($720 in all) makes a total investment of $1,458 in 36 rolls. The total return will be all but $52, giving E = -$52/$1,458 = -3.567%.

Scenario 3: The Field 12 pays triple, but Buy bets surrender commission on every win or loss

The results here are the same as those for 1, except for the increased Field 12 pay, or only $9 lost, and a diminished E = -2.486%.

Scenario 4: The Field 12 pays triple and Buy bets only surrender commission on wins

The optimal situation, returning $20 more than 2, or losing only $32 out of $1,458, and minimizing E = -2.195%.

Clearly, the biggest contributor to frugalizing the Iron Cross system is the presence of the Triple-12 Field.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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August 18th, 2014 at 8:26:26 PM permalink
Can this thread be moved to DT ? I believe they have a prayer channel there.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
dicesitter
dicesitter
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August 18th, 2014 at 8:49:23 PM permalink
iron cross




when the fields pays 3x12 the bet becomes a better bet than placing the 5 & 9.


HOWEVER......... the casino makes its money by paying you less than proper odds on
all your bets.

Even if you hit your number , the casino has a built in vig.....

So you play the iron cross, what happens.

for every $100 you bet on the 4 & 10 the casino keeps $6.67
for every $100 you bet on 5 & 9 ( the casino keeps $4.00
for every $100 you bet on 6 & 8 the casino keeps $1.52
for every $100 you bet on field, the casino keeps $2.78 ( 3x12) or $5.56 at 2x12

Now you can improve that with buys on certain numbers. but that can also add to your average bet.

Under the right conditions any system may work, but in the long run, as you increase your number of bets
you will increase your expected loss per roll.

Dicesetter
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
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August 18th, 2014 at 8:50:43 PM permalink
The basic problem with the "iron cross" is that every one of the bets in it is negative expectation.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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August 18th, 2014 at 9:02:52 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

The basic problem with the "iron cross" is that every one of the bets in it is negative expectation.




Awww . You say that like it's a bad thing.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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August 18th, 2014 at 9:04:33 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

The basic problem with the "iron cross" is that every one of the bets in it is negative expectation.



That's not a problem peculiar to the Iron Cross; that's the problem with betting in any casino, period.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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August 18th, 2014 at 9:20:56 PM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

iron cross




when the fields pays 3x12 the bet becomes a better bet than placing the 5 & 9.


HOWEVER......... the casino makes its money by paying you less than proper odds on
all your bets.

Even if you hit your number , the casino has a built in vig.....

So you play the iron cross, what happens.

for every $100 you bet on the 4 & 10 the casino keeps $6.67
for every $100 you bet on 5 & 9 ( the casino keeps $4.00
for every $100 you bet on 6 & 8 the casino keeps $1.52
for every $100 you bet on field, the casino keeps $2.78 ( 3x12) or $5.56 at 2x12



That's when your making these bets separately. Each of these bets resolves at a different average rate (each 4- or 10-box every four rolls; each 5- or 9-box every 3.6 rolls; each 6- or 8-box every 3.27 rolls, The Field, every roll), so your comparison is apples to pomegranates to oranges to kiwis. The Iron Cross is a coverage bet, with a single-roll and a multi-roll component, combining separate wagers, each one with its own NX, but each is weighted differently because none resolve the same number of times in the Cycle of Rolls. The numbers don't lie - on a liberal Triple-pay-12 Field table, $1,000 bet consistently on the Iron Cross is expected to only lose about $22 or $25. I can live with that.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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August 18th, 2014 at 9:56:36 PM permalink
If you like the Iron Cross, you'll love the easy peezie.

Bet every easy way for one unit each (15 units) and you win one unit every time you don't roll a pair!

EASY PEEZIE!

You win 5 out of 6 rolls JUST LIKE THE IRON CROSS but you ALWAYS WIN THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT. So there's nothing confusing about it!

If you understand why you might not want to bet this way, but you don't understand why you might not want to bet the iron cross, consider that the composite edge per roll or the iron cross is ten times as high as a max odds strategy, just like EASY PEEZIE(sm) has an edge that is ten times as high as the Iron Cross.

I'll be selling a book called "MAKING CRAPS EASY THE EASY PEEZIE WAY." The book is only $19.99 if you pre-order now.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 18th, 2014 at 10:00:13 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

If you like the Iron Cross, you'll love the easy peezie.

Bet every easy way for one unit each (15 units) and you win one unit every time you don't roll a pair!

EASY PEEZIE!

You win 5 out of 6 rolls JUST LIKE THE IRON CROSS but you ALWAYS WIN THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT. So there's nothing confusing about it!

If you understand why you might not want to bet this way, but you don't understand why you might not want to bet the iron cross, consider that the composite edge per roll or the iron cross is ten times as high as a max odds strategy, just like EASY PEEZIE(sm) has an edge that is ten times as high as the Iron Cross.

I'll be selling a book called "MAKING CRAPS EASY THE EASY PEEZIE WAY." The book is only $19.99 if you pre-order now.

First signed copy goes to Sally?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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