Craps Dealer tells me to leave the table because I play the dont pass.
Quote: AhighI tipped then more than the sum total of all tips while I was there for over an hour (about $20). I only won about twice as much as I tipped.I watched people with twenty times as much action stiff these guys and the dealers were TOTALLY HAPPY to be getting toked.
$5 each. Wow.
Quote:And if I want to stand there and give someone an earful about how horribly they are running their table, I WILL DO IT. And please 86 me if you don't like it. I'll complain about being 86'd as I get escorted out the door too.
They will.
Quote:And I couldn't care less what you think about how much I make and how that should affect my decision about how much I toke or how much I complain. It's completely irrelevant.
It is relevant. The dealers make $20K/year or less, plus tips. The dealers don't really care to be told how to do their jobs, and they don't care if a doey don't has the same EV as a pass or don't pass, just as much as you don't want to hear a lecture from a customer about how to code when you know how to code. That was my comparison. Put yourself in their shoes for moment, please. Your $1 tips are not worth the lecture fee.
Quote: AhighI don't think I was reprimanded. It's their job to entertain me, and they failed, and I let them know about it. Screw what they think about how I bet! It's a frequent thing that I will let a dealer know that if I need advice for how to bet I will ask them. Dealer advice on how to bet is generally pretty terrible. So are comments like yours on internet forums. This thread is about dealers telling you how to bet, not about house rules. If this were only about house rules, maybe we could talk about your perspective on how my method of betting violated house rules. In my opinion, I don't think it violated any house rules. I think the box man was just being a horrible employee completely out of touch with what was going on at the time (my tipping instead of playing for myself).
It's their job to enforce the rules of the game. Of that they have no choice or latitude. The entertainment factor is such that there are some players who will never be entertained no matter what they do. You see, there are some people who come to the craps table who expect to see a circus and experience something else. Some people can't be entertained, and I think, given your experience, that you are one of the outliers who expect too much from the crew and not enough from the game itself.
Lets clarify a few things before we go any further. Most casino have/had some type of coupons for table games including craps. Whether it be match play coupons, free bet coupons, so limiting to the 12 casinos you possibly play at is cherry picking.Quote: AhighThere is one other place that won't allow this, but technically it's not a free bet coupon, it's a free bet chip. They are typically $25 denomination and up. That place is the Stratosphere.
But I would be surprised if you could come up with another craps pit that disallows hedging coupons. I therefore challenge you to come up with and have me verify what you suggest that it's more prevalent than I suggest.
Here's the places that allow it that I know of and can easily verify by asking (there's a remote chance one of these places changed their policy, but I've done it multiple times at each property and I always ask before doing it the first time as I did recently at The M).
Gold Coast
Sam's Town
Silverton
Red Rock
Palace Station
Green Valley Ranch
Texas Station
Fiesta Rancho
Fiesta Henderson
The M
Not every craps pit gives out coupons (I don't think the Wynn does, and I don't think any MGM properties do either). So that further limits the discussion to the craps pits that allow and have free bet coupons on the felt.
I'm saying that if you walk up to a table with a match play or free play coupon and place hedging bets with your coupon and a pit boss see this happening there is as fair chance he will tell you this is not allowed. its not in the spirit of the offer.They don't like you free rolling them. they know if have a better chance of losing you have a better chance of chasing. They might let good players get away with this way more often.
I have even seen some coupons even specifically state you cant do this. Not exactly the same but along the same lines E table games often disallow free play coupons because they want you to risk money
Quote: AhighAnd if I want to stand there and give someone an earful about how horribly they are running their table, I WILL DO IT. And please 86 me if you don't like it. I'll complain about being 86'd as I get escorted out the door too.
I think that's my right to complain and make their life miserable in return for what they assumed that they could do (tell me some bull that's possibly not even true about how I can bet) without hearing any feedback from me.
Quote: AhighI don't think I was reprimanded. It's their job to entertain me, and they failed, and I let them know about it. Screw what they think about how I bet! It's a frequent thing that I will let a dealer know that if I need advice for how to bet I will ask them. Dealer advice on how to bet is generally pretty terrible. So are comments like yours on internet forums. This thread is about dealers telling you how to bet, not about house rules. If this were only about house rules, maybe we could talk about your perspective on how my method of betting violated house rules. In my opinion, I don't think it violated any house rules. I think the box man was just being a horrible employee completely out of touch with what was going on at the time (my tipping instead of playing for myself).
I have an idea, RS. Maybe you're the same way. Ignorant that this is a thread about betting the way that you want and ignoring ignorant dealers or boxes at the table. There's a sort of a parallel here in that you think this is about house rules and obeying house rules. It's not. You can bet HOWEVER YOU WANT within the minimum and maximum bet limits. That includes do and don't at the same time at every casino that I know of. I don't even accept that the Palms disallows this when it's your money and not a coupon. I think this guy was wrong because I have heard the rules about do and don't at the same time there, and it's all about the coupons.
You and people like you take a tiny sample of a situation and think to yourself that you know more than you do.
You want to take a $25 wager with me whether I violated house rules at the Palms when no coupon is involved?
I'm not interested in a $25 wager, or any other amount.
Perhaps my word usage was poor. The casino can decide to not take your action if they so please. If they don't want your action, that's up to them. That boxman didn't want your action, at least that type of action. I'm not saying he was right. I'm saying he didn't want it yet you have this "they have to take my action no matter what" attitude.
Instead of giving a long speech, why not ask the box why he wouldn't let you do doey-don't? Or ask him if it's against the house rules? He even said you could play, as long as the table wasn't full (or something like that?).
No, they do not have to allow you your action and can dictate how you bet. I've been told that I cannot increase nor decrease my bet (in blackjack) in the middle of a shoe -- I'm sure others have, too.
Did you really say you think you have a right to make their life miserable if they don't accept your action?
Quote: RSI'm not interested in a $25 wager, or any other amount.
Perhaps my word usage was poor. The casino can decide to not take your action if they so please. If they don't want your action, that's up to them. That boxman didn't want your action, at least that type of action. I'm not saying he was right. I'm saying he didn't want it yet you have this "they have to take my action no matter what" attitude.
Instead of giving a long speech, why not ask the box why he wouldn't let you do doey-don't? Or ask him if it's against the house rules? He even said you could play, as long as the table wasn't full (or something like that?).
No, they do not have to allow you your action and can dictate how you bet. I've been told that I cannot increase nor decrease my bet (in blackjack) in the middle of a shoe -- I'm sure others have, too.
Did you really say you think you have a right to make their life miserable if they don't accept your action?
It is interesting that different people read these posts and get different meaning out of them. I am finally comprehending how poor written communication is and what an art good writing skills are.
The dealers IMO are already miserable [or not] and Ahigh doesn't change their lives meaningfully either way.
I see this as was said, the box steps in not knowing what is going on. I too have played just low stakes for the dealers toward the end of my game. For the love of the game.
Who else is going to teach these break in dealers different understanding of the game? The box doesn't have time anymore as they are covering more and more duties. What the dealers learn at dealer school other than company policy can possibly be the last thing they learn about the game if they are not interested enough to study on their own. Ahigh challenges them to think, and so many insecure dealers are upset with him versus using him as not only an inexpensive way to learn more about the game but Hell he even pays them while teaching them.
If the dealers take it poorly than that too is on management to work on the dealers people skills. Ahigh said, you don't want me here I will leave. He also said he wasn't planning on not telling them what he thought about being 86'd. That is how the system works. All these milk toast players who can't get beyond pass/fail or field bets irritate me sometimes. I've watched these dealers short pay, and short stick and nobody calls them on it. Does anyone think that they review the tape at the end of the night and catch short pays and try and hunt down the player because the house owes them money? Not.
I'm sure dealing as an occupation can be less then pleasant at times. In my job it had its moments also. But I am confident in my skillset to move to the next job if this one isn't working. These dealers if they want professional style tips should be able to twist Ahigh in knots about the rules, odds and nuances history and such of the game.
Hey, hate the game not the player. If he is wrong disagree on the merits of the game. I can't stand dealers trying to get me to make bets I dont want. No two players alike.
I for one love to learn something every day. Sometimes how I come across the knowledge hasn't been the most pleasant way. Pain is a good teacher.
ABSOLUTELY. That could try explaining to gaming why I could not place a bet !
Quote: beachbumbabsI keep meaning to ask. What does "short stick" mean in craps? You guys mention it a lot.
I had never heard the phrase before myself. In the Wiz's video on craps he says it is when a dealer doesn't move the dice too close to the edge so a well endowed chick's tatas hang out to get the dice.
Quote: Buzzard" Did you really say you think you have a right to make their life miserable if they don't accept your action? "
ABSOLUTELY. That could try explaining to gaming why I could not place a bet !
This is my take on it as well. There's a trickle-down effect when a player is rude and/or condescending to a dealer, especially a new one. The dealer gets scared and defensive, gets to hating their job, gets to hating their patrons, not just the guy they cringe when they see him coming, but all players are now taking a shot, cause a problem, belittle them, whatever. And then they move towards either apathy or hostility, and don't do their jobs as well as they might if they enjoyed and trusted their customers, which gives rise to increases in customer complaints or derision. It's a spiral of escalation.
Stand up for correcting a pay or a problem as it happens, sure. Done with respect and goodwill, it is effective and damages neither the dealer nor your relationship with the casino.
Quote: beachbumbabsI keep meaning to ask. What does "short stick" mean in craps? You guys mention it a lot.
It's a little ploy that chauvinistic stickmen do to amuse themselves and the rest of the crew.
Basically, when a "well endowed" women is rolling dem bones, the stickman deliberately moves the dice to her in such a way that they are further away from her than normal.
In order to grab them, she must reach in, deep into the table, hopefully exposing her breast.
Quote: beachbumbabsI keep meaning to ask. What does "short stick" mean in craps? You guys mention it a lot.
It's very slightly related to another expression I had to explain to you -- the one about a woman flying a plane upside down.
Quote: beachbumbabsI keep meaning to ask. What does "short stick" mean in craps? You guys mention it a lot.
The dealers are sometimes bored and want to entertain themselves and each other.
Sure there is short sticking to get a better view of breasts but then there is short sticking just to make a player reach for the dice.
I don't have tatas but sometimes I do get a sore back. A particularly cantankerous stick person makes me reach way out for the dice every time even when I ask to get them delivered closer to me. Anything to make it harder for me to get the dice. Far away, way past or jammed up against the wall. I have asked enough times and often the stick pleads ingnorance, but I am convinced it is just plain meaness. I am terminally nice and have tipped every time I can remember since my youth [ a benefit made possible by union wages].
Short stick ie; dealers an a..hole. Need Ahigh to come play with me to get even,and Babs to give the place some class.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkI had never heard the phrase before myself. In the Wiz's video on craps he says it is when a dealer doesn't move the dice too close to the edge so a well endowed chick's tatas hang out to get the dice.
I'm going to add to what petroglyph had to say, dealers in all of their wisdom think it's funny to screw with the shooters, and making them reach way out for the dice is one of their many ways of screwing with the shooters. It's almost an art that get passed on to new dealers as they sour on their great jobs, that they hate!
Unfortunately petroglyph gets to see a lot of that kind of stuff where he plays at in Laughlin, NV. The dealers leave a lot to be desired there.
Most of the time you will see it with the good looking ladies, being short sticked. If the stickman is putting the dice out of your reach, just don't pick them up, tell them you have a bad back and you can't reach them! It's their job to get the dice back to where you can reach them!
Short sticking can be a way of throwing the shooter off their game, as it takes them out of their shooting spot to get the dice. Some of these dealers are only working to get the tips off the other hard working dealers that take pride in their work. They know that all they have to do is show up for work, and they will get their cut of the tip pool, sharing tips was one of the worst things the casinos did, it took away the incentive of becoming a good dealer. Some of the dealers shouldn't be working in the casinos, with their bad attitudes, and bad working skills.
They think that their job is to stand their and talk about anything but what is happening on the craps tables. Some do everything in their power to get the shooters to seven out. In one of the casinos that petroglyph get to play at there is a dealer that is always reciting part of the Gettysburg address!
He is always saying the phrase "Four score and seven years ago when the shooter is shooting, he things that he is funny, as most shooters never want to here the word seven when they are shooting, this clown, cost the other dealers tips!
When I was in Laughlin, and playing on the same table with petroglyph I had the dealers up on my bets, and as soon as I heard this particular dealer reciting part of the Gettysburg address I pulled all of my dealer bets down as the were under my control.
He had the nerve to say something to me when I did that, I just laughed at him and told his fellow dealers, that he just cost them all of the tokes I had up for them! Then I went on to tell him he might have thought that he was funny, but it didn't fly with me, and if I was you I would be looking for a different job. That he shouldn't be dealing craps!
Now I know that most of you will say that by having someone say the word seven, can not get a shooter to seven out, and that is true. The dice do not know that this clown is saying the word seven, but I do, and it's being disrespectful to the shooter!
Quote: DocIt's very slightly related to another expression I had to explain to you -- the one about a woman flying a plane upside down.
AWWWWWW Doc I wanted her to ask me !.... SIGH
I try not to place those places. Have some *hithead dealer, and then when I get a decent dealer, that *hithead get a piece of my tip. No thanks !
That seems to be how everybody else communicates with a craps crew.
Quote: Ahigh86 me if you don't like it.
Where did this term start? I've heard it used at H**ters.
Quote: NowTheSerpentWhere did this term start? I've heard it used at H**ters.
https://twitter.com/TexDolly/status/216647868033941505
Quote: SluistroIt just blew my mind when he said this to me. Anybody else have that? Im sitting on the rail and not betting because dude is on a small hot streak. He asks why im not betting I told him, all nice and quiet "I play the dont pass." (and when I do play, Im all quiet in my area and quietly take my winnings etc when the 7's come out) and after that he got all super mean and tells me to leave. "Pick up your money and please leave"
Holy crap. He's lucky I actually DID have to leave. I jumped into a poker tournament with my buddy. but if I didnt. oh man I would've went off on his ass. Can they actually do that? Can't he get fired for saying shit like that? lol. I was speechless he had the balls to say that to me. lol
I work at the Borgata and this is unexcusable. I can almost guarantee that if management knew about this, that dealer would be fired. And working at the best casino in AC and risking your job like that is just stupidity.
I understand the shooter was on a hot streak and you wanted to wait, there's no crime on that. But if it was a busy night and people are waiting for a spot on the table and you were sitting there not betting player after player then I can see the supervisor ( not dealer ), asking if your not going to play could you please let this so or so player get in.
Quote: djatcI feel like buying in and playing $5 on the DP just to spite this guy.
It'll have to be $10 at the Borgata :-)
Quote: RSGood luck with that one.....he'll likely trade your whites for reds. When you ask him for more whites, he'll just say "no you have plenty of whites". People have tried doing that shit to me before. And figuring out what $11-14 pays isn't that difficult. If you wanna fuck with him, ask for a $168 eight, $222 six, etc. and a $135 horn hi 12 or $72 3-way-craps.
A good dealer will actually enjoy bets like that. It's the weak dealer that those bets would irritate. I guess we know what kind of dealer you fall into :-)
Some dealers assume everybody loses.
I spoke up and got my chip back plus the profit.
Binions, party pit dealers.
Quote: AhighHere's a story. Last night at the Palms, everyone finished at the table and nobody was left. So I said, "sure I'll shoot." I bet $11 on the pass and $10 on the don't pass and rolled a winner, then I tipped the $1 to the dealers.
I continued to do this (I won every time) and continued tipping all of my winnings.
I had $10 and $10 and set a point at nine, then I put $12 odds and laid $15 (a net of $2 in odds).
The box then comes up and begins to tell me, "we don't allow you to bet.." I actually cut him off and said "I can bet any way I want to."
He then said, "no we won't let you bet that way when there's a full table especially." He had sort of changed his tune (a little bit) when I cut him off. I rolled the winner on the next roll and told him, "I'll leave if you want me to leave just tell me you want me to leave."
He then changed gears and said, "there's nobody else at the table and you can stay."
I then said, "here's the thing. I play for fun and I was having fun until you started telling me how I am not allowed to bet the way that I want to bet. I'm not having fun at all any more and I don't want to be here."
He stopped talking and sort of started pacing behind the table.
I then asked the dealers as I placed $10 on the pass and $10 on the don't pass. I said, "pop quiz, what's the difference in the expected hold percentage on this money if I bet this way versus all $20 on the pass line."
The stick man said, "it's the same."
I then said, "it's only SLIGHTLY different. But most casinos will rate you for a zero average bet because they think that if you have no volatility that they aren't making any money on you."
I went on to say, "I think those people who run things that way are retarded. If I want to give up my chance to win, and I'm using my money, that's something that I should be allowed to do. The casino is still making money off me, and anyone who doesn't realize that doesn't understand how the game works."
I then went on to say, "I know you guys give out free coupons and don't allow hedging on the coupons and I can even understand that. There's no names on the coupons and it's an easy way for someone to just turn the coupons into cash."
At this point, I had bought in for $100 and I had about $115.
I then took out $1,500 in cash and put it on the felt.
The box man then asks, "your name was Glenn wasn't it." I said, "I don't know!" He said, "can I get your card so you can get rated?"
I replied, "I don't even know if I'm going to bet yet." The stick man pushed the dice out to me and I told him, "I'm not going to do anything until I get my drink."
They counted out $1,500 as the cocktail waitress brought me a Red Bull. The stick man was pushing the dice out to me, and I threw in another $3 (the win from the $2 odds on the nine) and said "dealer hand in no bet." I took $100+ in red, $500 in green and $1,000 in black to the cashier.
Here's the thing: nobody can tell you how to bet YOUR MONEY. They simply CANNOT. They can tell you to leave for any reason without even giving you a reason. They can ADVISE you how to bet. But they CANNOT disallow a betting strategy, particularly one that is already in action before they notice it.
Many people in these pits just don't know what they are doing.
TRUTH!
They also have four tables there. Three of them pay double on the 12 in the field, and one of them pays triple.
<sarcasm>They really got their stuff together over there</sarcasm>
Sorry but you are totally wrong. Not every house has the same rules and the box person sounded yvery polite when he explained the situation, you couldn't leave it at that and like most players like yourself you had to throw fuel on the fire. It's fine the way you bet pre point ( you are risking table min ). But after the point you hedged your bet and are not risking the table min.
So all in all, you should be thankful that they continued to let you play.
And I for one is all for making a dollar. But even if you were tipping $100 a roll, house rules are house rules. If you want to try and change the house rules, get yourself a $100,000 credit line set up your own set of rules with your host prior to coming to the casino. But be prepared, even with $100,000 credit line some rules are still going to appy.
Quote: TheBigBA good dealer will actually enjoy bets like that. It's the weak dealer that those bets would irritate. I guess we know what kind of dealer you fall into :-)
Those bets don't irritate me, but I imagine would irritate most dealers.
Quote: terapinedI'm a dark sider and have actually had my bet taken off the table when the shooter, instead of hitting the point, rolls a 7.
Some dealers assume everybody loses.
I spoke up and got my chip back plus the profit.
Binions, party pit dealers.
To me that's not an assumption, that's a mistake. I've been there done that :-)
Quote: RSThose bets do irritate me, but I imagine would irritate most dealers.
You're right, they wound irritate most dealers.
I've been stuck dealing high limit BJ almost everyday I don't floor, even though craps is my main game. I'm happy to get on crap table so right now I'll take any bet :-)
I'm actually dealing craps tonight at 10pm
Anytime a craps dealer tells to leave the table he's doing you a favor.
Quote: TheBigBYou're right, they wound irritate most dealers.
I've been stuck dealing high limit BJ almost everyday I don't floor, even though craps is my main game. I'm happy to get on crap table so right now I'll take any bet :-)
I'm actually dealing craps tonight at 10pm
Mistyped. Those bets don't* irritate me. Dealing with $6 or $12 six and eights all night long is brutally boring.
Quote: AxelWolf"Craps Dealer tells me to leave the table because I play the dont pass."
Anytime a craps dealer tells to leave the table he's doing you a favor.
LOL, that's a good one.
Unless you're there to have a good time. And if that was the case you wouldn't be playing the DP. :-)
Quote: terapinedI'm a dark sider and have actually had my bet taken off the table when the shooter, instead of hitting the point, rolls a 7.
Some dealers assume everybody loses.
I spoke up and got my chip back plus the profit.
Binions, party pit dealers.
I've had that happen to me too. No big deal for me, because I'm watching...
Quote: APEppinkGuy's nutz.
"Guy's nutz" ?
Resurrected a 15 month old thread to enlighten the members with that wisdom?
Which guy's nuts were you talking about? ;-)
Actually, I never read this thread before so it took me to OP, page 1. Took awhile to read.
I assumed there was going to be something life changing at the end......
And I got "guys Nutz".
AHigh was entertaining till he jumped out of a plane without remembering to put on his 'chute.
I miss him.
<edit> not mentioning, accusing, or implying any particular member.... But I think we've lost the 'war on drugs'.
Quote: APEppinkGuy's nutz.
