Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
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February 8th, 2014 at 12:33:18 PM permalink
As I have posted here before, I help manage a charitable gaming event for a local non-profit. It’s real money gambling but of the $1-$10 variety. We have about 20 events per-year.

We do pretty well in craps however, there is always an argument from some players that they did not get paid on their hard-ways on the come-out roll. Our policy is that all hard-ways as well as pass line bets are off on the come out. We're happy to have them “work” if the player so indicates. This is well and good provided there are only a few hard-ways on the table. Most of the time though, there are many hard-ways on the table which requires a lammer to be placed on those working versus those not working. All this takes extra time which, in a charity game, is our most precious commodity. We want as many spins, rolls and/or hands played per-hour as the edge in all our games is tilted towards the house—certainly more than a regular casino.

On another thread, there were as many posters stating that hard-ways are always off on the come-out as there were that said that they work on the the come out? What is your experience?

Secondly, I am thinking about changing our rules to make hard-ways to always work on the come out. The thinking here is, as the house, we always want to be in a position to have the player “seven out”. And naturally, if a 7 is rolled on the come out, we would win ALL the hard-way bets, even though the pass line bets would win. Bottom line, we’re taking in money versus essentially, giving players a “free pass” with no risk other than the 2, 3, 12. So, with the hard-ways working, we would win on a 7 or a soft number. Of course, we would pay if the hard-way hits but, all our prop payouts are shaved by about 30% (again, it’s a charity game). Finally, I would put up signage stating “Hard-ways always work unless called off”.

All that said, I have several concerns about all this….

1. Am I going against the traditional rules by making hard-ways working on the come out?

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out. Our dealers are mostly volunteer and I’m fearful that we're adding a new level of complexity to the game.

3. Currently, it fairly rare to have a player call out to have their hard-ways working on the come-out. As a result, putting out a lammer is not that big of a hassle. I’m fearful that players, being risk aversive, will frequent call to have their hard-ways off on the come out. This will require lammers to be put on all non working wagers, which again, causes delay in the action.

Finally, about 95% of our players are pass-line betters. With 15 or so players, I’m paying out to 14-15 players when a 7 is rolled on the come-out. At least now, I will be able to sweep any/all the working hard-ways that are in the middle.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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February 8th, 2014 at 12:38:53 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

1. Am I going against the traditional rules by making hard-ways working on the come out?

In Vegas, hardways are working on the come-out roll.


Quote: Riva

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out.

Do you mean Place bets?
Fighting BS one post at a time!
Doc
Doc
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February 8th, 2014 at 12:52:21 PM permalink
My experience has been that there is almost uniform non-consistency on this. Perhaps Beethoven9th is correct that they are working on the come-out everywhere in Vegas, but I travel around a bit, and it seems like a coin flip on how the next casino will handle it as the default. I just always ask (or listen to the stickman's call) the first time the issue comes up, and then I know the story for that casino.

Now, I personally always have my hardways off on the come-out, whether that is the default or something I must call. If the default is "on", it only takes a couple of calls for a professional stickman to pick up the pattern and automatically mark mine "off". At the dealer rotation, the stick usually (at least often) passes such patterns on the the replacement.
Riva
Riva
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February 8th, 2014 at 1:55:56 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

In Vegas, hardways are working on the come-out roll.


Quote: Riva

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out.

Do you mean Place bets?



yes sorry.. Place bets
SFB
SFB
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February 8th, 2014 at 2:23:36 PM permalink
Riva:

I don't know when "Vegas" changed from having the "Hardaways" working on the come out roll.

In 2006 and 7, I thought the hardaways were not working on the come out roll.

But in Dec 2013, they were working.

I could have faulty memory on the 2006-7 time frame. :)

I would post the sign on your table. Players should see what the rules are.

What are the rates on your table for the hardaways, 2/12, 3/11 and field?

SFB
Riva
Riva
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February 8th, 2014 at 2:57:48 PM permalink
Quote: SFB

Riva:

I don't know when "Vegas" changed from having the "Hardaways" working on the come out roll.

In 2006 and 7, I thought the hardaways were not working on the come out roll.

But in Dec 2013, they were working.

I could have faulty memory on the 2006-7 time frame. :)

I would post the sign on your table. Players should see what the rules are.

What are the rates on your table for the hardaways, 2/12, 3/11 and field?

SFB



hard 6 & hard 8 = 6:1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 5:1

2 & 12 = 20:1

3 & 11 = 10:1

any craps = 5:1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2:1

BTW the payouts are printed right in to the layout so, they look "official". I have been to chariy functions in the past where they simply put tape over the regular numbers and write in the shaved payout. It looks like hell.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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February 8th, 2014 at 4:58:11 PM permalink
Hardways working is a Vegas thing. Unless you're located in Vegas, leave them as not working. To do otherwise would invite arguments on the other side.

Also, in Vegas, the stickman usually reminds players that hardways are working. Elsewhere, there's no announcement - and no need.

If you really are having issues, make a sign stating that they are not working. Might as well also include place bets and come odds on the sign. Then again, you might want to remind people what the black side if the luck says...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SFB
SFB
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February 8th, 2014 at 5:02:22 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

hard 6 & hard 8 = 6:1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 5:1

2 & 12 = 20:1

3 & 11 = 10:1

any craps = 5:1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2:1

BTW the payouts are printed right in to the layout so, they look "official". I have been to chariy functions in the past where they simply put tape over the regular numbers and write in the shaved payout. It looks like hell.



Wow, that is harsh.

Does your organization just split the take with the charity organization that you work with, or is it a %, or how does that work?

SFB
Riva
Riva
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February 8th, 2014 at 5:32:41 PM permalink
Quote: SFB

Wow, that is harsh.

Does your organization just split the take with the charity organization that you work with, or is it a %, or how does that work?

SFB



Respectfully, it's not harsh. Players have fun. Nobody gets seriously hurt and, many players go home with more money that they came in with.

It's our own game..we don't split the take with anybody other than ourselves. 100% of the money passes through to the charity.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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February 8th, 2014 at 7:05:37 PM permalink
IIRC, even in 2008 and maybe 2009, many of the strip casino craps games were hardways NOT working on the come out roll. I think it was sometime around 2010 that they started working the hardways, as the default. And I agree with Doc, it is easy to find it both ways as you travel, although I am tending to find more places now work them by default. You have to call them off.

I would say that when I am playing the majority of the players do call them off. A few people have them working, but not many. I rarely bet hardways, but I call them off when I do.

As to your charity game, which way do most of the people at your games play your hardways?
The least amount of work for the dealers is to go with whatever the majority of the players usually do.

If the majority don't have them working, then I would make the default NOT Working, and post a sign saying so.
If the majority of the people want their hardways working, make the default Hardways Work, and post that sign instead.

Either way, I would post a sign for a charity event. Inexperienced dealers + inexperienced gamblers = argument.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

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