what would happen to pass line bets if no one agrees to throw the dice?
What if a team of players squeeze around every possible spot on a craps table in a very slow time in a very slow casino, make max PL bets, and then just refuse to roll the dice if they get a point? Possible advantage play or ridiculous?
Quote: sodawaterWhat if a player makes a pass line bet, gets a point, and then refuses to shoot the dice? And no one else at the table is willing to do it? Would the casino just wait until they found someone willing to shoot the dice? Is there any circumstance where a pass line bet would be refunded?
What if a team of players squeeze around every possible spot on a craps table in a very slow time in a very slow casino, make max PL bets, and then just refuse to roll the dice if they get a point? Possible advantage play or ridiculous?
I actually asked this question to various crews before. They said that if a person refuses to throw the dice but has a Pass Line bet down after the point has already been established, then he/she is stuck until someone else does throw the dice (since it's a contract bet).
I also asked what would happen to a Come bet if the person had no more money left to put on the PL and shoot. They replied that if it was only $5 or $10, they MIGHT be inclined to give back the player's money, but generally speaking, a person with a Come bet on a number is also stuck if no one wants to shoot.
I guess it would be worth it to the casino to keep the game open and waiting if the bets were big enough. And maybe if the bets were small enough, it would cost the casino way more to hold open a table it was planning to close.
Also, how much time is the group of AP's willing to spend on waiting out the casino? I assume they could ghost staff the table and just open another where people are willing to play?
I would make them wait, perhaps at least an hour and then re-evaluate if I were a casino manager.
It would be very clear very quickly what they are trying to do especially since, maybe 0.05% of the population makes max bets on the PL.
It comes down to the original rule and the casino interpretation thereof.
there was a dispute over a call by a dealer and none of the players would pick up the dice to shoot. The game remained open till somebody finally "broke down" and agreed to shoot.
I don't think the "boycott" lasted more than five minutes.
Worse things have happened at a casino...
Years ago at the Rio when a shooter made all six points on the fire bet there was a "missing" chip. A player said he made the bet... the dealer confirmed.... but the bet was missing. So the eye in the sky went back on the tape to confirm the bet was made -- easy enough. But the table was shut down for close to an hour while "the eye" determined why the bet disappeared. (turned out it was knocked off by a dice throw and the chip went into the dealer's stack). As we all stood around everyone said it would have been cheaper for the casino to pay the player the $5,000 than to keep the table shut down for an hour.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYears ago at the Rio when a shooter made all six points on the fire bet there was a "missing" chip. A player said he made the bet... the dealer confirmed.... but the bet was missing. So the eye in the sky went back on the tape to confirm the bet was made -- easy enough. But the table was shut down for close to an hour while "the eye" determined why the bet disappeared. (turned out it was knocked off by a dice throw and the chip went into the dealer's stack). As we all stood around everyone said it would have been cheaper for the casino to pay the player the $5,000 than to keep the table shut down for an hour.
That should never happen, extremely bad customer service!
Surveillance has to confirm which bets were placed on the FIRE BEFORE any payouts can be made anyway but there is no reason to hold up the game just to see what happened to the chip!
Once you know the bet was there before the the roll commenced you pay and finish. What happened to the original chip is secondary and should be reported on as a separate incident anway.
Muppets!
Obviously these things are rare. A die can fall amongst the boxman's chips but if it falls into the dice bowl its a no roll even if determinable. Firm rule. No exceptions. House provides a choice, player chooses, but once chosen even if it was an unprotected dice bowl, there will be no disputes. No roll.
Same thing with "the shooter". No one may be compelled to shoot. A shooter can pass the dice at any time and need not give an explanation, but no matter how empty the place is... if the game continues it will be someone from the public who shoots. If the casino has to go get a hooker away from the slot machines and bring her over to shoot the dice, they might do it, but the BoxMan will NOT shoot the dice nor will any other casino employee.
Quote: sodawaterWhat if a player makes a pass line bet, gets a point, and then refuses to shoot the dice? And no one else at the table is willing to do it? Would the casino just wait until they found someone willing to shoot the dice? Is there any circumstance where a pass line bet would be refunded?
What if a team of players squeeze around every possible spot on a craps table in a very slow time in a very slow casino, make max PL bets, and then just refuse to roll the dice if they get a point? Possible advantage play or ridiculous?
What is the AP? Free drinks or what?
Suppose there is a "full" table, meaning that even if another player could squeeze between and get up to the rail, there would be no standard place on the table layout for the dealers to position that player's wagers. In that situation, is another player allowed to enter the game? (Note: at tables where I have played, there are generally enough fat guys like me taking up extra space so that you rarely have as many players physically fitting at the table as there are standard playing positions, so this is just hypothetical.)
Suppose that the ruling is that he/she could not be allowed to join the game as an extra even if everyone was skinny. Also suppose that the full table of players refuse to shoot for some reason. Even if the casino could find another player willing to shoot (eg., the passing girl), they could not add them to the table. They can't have a shooter who doesn't have a bet down, can they? It seems they would have to convince one of the original players to roll the dice.
What have I missed?
Quote: DocHow's this for a twist?
Suppose there is a "full" table, meaning that even if another player could squeeze between and get up to the rail, there would be no standard place on the table layout for the dealers to position that player's wagers. In that situation, is another player allowed to enter the game? (Note: at tables where I have played, there are generally enough fat guys like me taking up extra space so that you rarely have as many players physically fitting at the table as there are standard playing positions, so this is just hypothetical.)
Suppose that the ruling is that he/she could not be allowed to join the game as an extra even if everyone was skinny. Also suppose that the full table of players refuse to shoot for some reason. Even if the casino could find another player willing to shoot (eg., the passing girl), they could not add them to the table. They can't have a shooter who doesn't have a bet down, can they? It seems they would have to convince one of the original players to roll the dice.
What have I missed?
yes that is exactly the scenario i posed in the second part of my original post.
Quote: DocHow's this for a twist?
Suppose there is a "full" table, meaning that even if another player could squeeze between and get up to the rail, there would be no standard place on the table layout for the dealers to position that player's wagers. In that situation, is another player allowed to enter the game? (Note: at tables where I have played, there are generally enough fat guys like me taking up extra space so that you rarely have as many players physically fitting at the table as there are standard playing positions, so this is just hypothetical.)
Suppose that the ruling is that he/she could not be allowed to join the game as an extra even if everyone was skinny. Also suppose that the full table of players refuse to shoot for some reason. Even if the casino could find another player willing to shoot (eg., the passing girl), they could not add them to the table. They can't have a shooter who doesn't have a bet down, can they? It seems they would have to convince one of the original players to roll the dice.
What have I missed?
A standard craps game can have 16 players, 8 on each side. The only reason they limit 8 to each side is because of the place and come bets, there simply isn't enough space for someone to place more bets. The PL is one continuous line that could, in theory house many wagers placed directly adjacent to one another, if people were only to place PL bets and nothing else. What is top stop the casino from allowing someone to step in, place a bet on the more than ample pass line and roll? Also the problem of having so many bodies, if one doesn't move to make a spot for the new shooter then the game will stall and everyone will look at one another until someone breaks? I figure the casino has more patience. Now let's look at the "passing girl" theory. What if the girl has no money? The casino can, in its infinite wisdom decide to stake the passing girl simply for the resolution of the next roll. Why not, it's their money right? In my 17 years in casinos I have never come across this situation but it doesn't mean it can't happen.
As an aside, I was dealing on a "tub" craps game which is a one man variation of the game on a cruise ship. The game has space for maximum 12 people, 6 on either side. I was dealing to 17 people at once.....It wasn't pretty, in fact it was down right nasty :)
Quote: Buzzard" What have I missed? " Getting the pretty girl's phone number ?
Hookers don't generally just give out their numbers unless the number is to their "service" or pimp :)
Quote: BuzzardJust because she's pretty doesn't make her a hooker. I guess working in a casino does something to one's outlook on life !
The only reason I mentioned that she was a hooker was because it was spoken about earlier in the thread as a possible solution......but yes, working in casinos for a large chunk of my life does make me, well, a little jaded and different I guess :)
Quote: BuzzardAs long as you can turn it off when you go out the door, all is good. But some people can not. SIGH
You should know me at least a little by now. I'm not nearly as opinionated as the "other casino guy" here :)
But you never know. In Colorado Double Action Bj was in casinos for almost 20 years. 6 spot table, 2 spots per player. I know, I know, obvious LOL. But were getting $300 a month royalty and at least 50 tables in Colorado for many years.
Quote: BuzzardHey seriously, good luck with your game. Out of those that ever get a placement in a casino, less than 1% survive. Brent, Moneysuit31, has been fighting the good fight for several years now. The inventor of 3 card poker said the toughest thing he ever did in life was getting casinos to put his game in. I believe it originally bombed in AC.
But you never know. In Colorado Double Action Bj was in casinos for almost 20 years. 6 spot table, 2 spots per player. I know, I know, obvious LOL. But were getting $300 a month royalty and at least 50 tables in Colorado for many years.
Yeah you are right and we understand the pit falls and perils, after all as mentioned this is a labor of love. We are looking possibly of making a go at this on our own, no investment or selling to a large company, not until we have installed the game in at least 6 to 10 casinos in Europe.
Easier said than done but you know, if you don't have a ticket, you don't have a chance :)
Thanks for the kind words
Quote: petroglyphWhat is the AP? Free drinks or what?
Placing a large bet on the pass line, hoping for a 7 or 11. Once the point is established, refuse to shoot and demand your bet back.
Suppose the guy who suddenly refuses to finish his hand is the only person with a line bet. What then? The next guy has a ton of place bets and some stupid prop bets, and is willing to throw, but you're gonna refuse to let him because he has no line bet?
Considering that the PL and DP are among the lowest edge bets on the table, why the rule? What if I want to shoot, but the only thing I'm gonna bet is a hard 6, working on a come out? Why can't I roll? Why cant the rule merely be that you always have at least one working bet for at least the table minimum?
For that matter, why have the rule at all? Oh, I get that you don't want some schmuck coming up to an empty table and wasting everyone's time by shooting without betting. But step up to an empty carnival game and the dealer will play a hand or two without requiring a bet, just to show you the basics. Hell, since they deal to every spot anyway, some dealers will allow you to sit and set the hand at a Pai Gow table as part of a training exercise (provided you do it after active players set their hands).
So why can't a random pretty girl throw the dice, even if she doesn't make a bet?
>So why can't a random pretty girl throw the dice, even if she doesn't make a bet?
Would be nice, but too often she might walk away. Casino wants someone with money at risk to be attentive to what is going on.
Quote: FleaStiffCasino wants someone with money at risk to be attentive to what is going on.
I get that. The confusion I have is a shooter who has come bets in play and loses their last chips on a 2,3,or 12 on the comeout. The can't or don't want to buy in again, and since they don't have a PL (or DP) bet out, the house passes the dice. They still have chips in play that originated on their roll so why do they lose their roll?
Quote: sodawaterWhat if a player makes a pass line bet, gets a point, and then refuses to shoot the dice? And no one else at the table is willing to do it? Would the casino just wait until they found someone willing to shoot the dice? Is there any circumstance where a pass line bet would be refunded?
What if a team of players squeeze around every possible spot on a craps table in a very slow time in a very slow casino, make max PL bets, and then just refuse to roll the dice if they get a point? Possible advantage play or ridiculous?
I always thought it was just a funny joke/rumor amongst my co-workers but there was a time where a don't bettor was shooting and hit 4 points and then passed them because he kept pressing his flat + lay odds. No one else on the table wanted to shoot. Since our casino has a fire bet and 4 points were pucked up, and there were 3 other people with a fire bet, the roll had to be resolved. The shooter had marked up the 5th different point so the roll had to be resolved. There was only 1 other game open and it was full. The players stood around for 45 minutes before, supposedly, the person sitting box was told to shoot the dice. I heard this months and months ago but thought it was BS until one of our players also told me about it recently.
The usual rule is Employees don't roll the dice unless the dice are in a cage. The house doesn't want constant arguments. The shooter with his own money at risk throws the dice, but strange things always do happen eventually.
Quote: wudgedPlacing a large bet on the pass line, hoping for a 7 or 11. Once the point is established, refuse to shoot and demand your bet back.
So, its kind of like a mulligan in golf only the casino is the friend? Might as well try it with the hopping big red and at least get odds if it hits. I'm liking this game more all the time. lol
Quote: MidwestAPI get that. The confusion I have is a shooter who has come bets in play and loses their last chips on a 2,3,or 12 on the comeout. The can't or don't want to buy in again, and since they don't have a PL (or DP) bet out, the house passes the dice. They still have chips in play that originated on their roll so why do they lose their roll?
It's just the rule -- no line bet, no dice. This happened while I was playing at the MGM once. The shooter was on a hot roll and was rolling lots of numbers but wasn't betting on them, and after the point was made, he threw a few comeout craps and had busted out. I had several come points out and was making lots of money on him. He shrugged and started to leave the table, but I threw him a $5 chip (this was a long time ago) and said "no, you keep shooting."
So he did. He rolled for at least another 10 minutes and made at least three more points after that, plus many more numbers. I'm pretty sure that was a +1000 hand for me, one of only a small few I've had. He even returned the $5 chip afterwards.
I rephrased the question as casinos in the UK used to have to close at 4am (2am on Sunday mornings), so no more bets were allowed by law and in theory this could happen. What they actually did was call last shooter at about 3.30. and closed the table when they sevened out.Quote:What if a player has a come bet...and can't shoot the dice?
Quote: MidwestAPI get that. The confusion I have is a shooter who has come bets in play and loses their last chips on a 2,3,or 12 on the comeout. The can't or don't want to buy in again, and since they don't have a PL (or DP) bet out, the house passes the dice. They still have chips in play that originated on their roll so why do they lose their roll?
This is what happened when the shooter made his point and walked away from the table.
I had two DC bets. The shooter made his point and then threw 2, 2, 3 and decided to leave. That left me with the two DC bets. Since I was the only one left the table, they wanted to return my DC bets.
I said NO! I'll wait for a shooter.
Here's the problem. There were two tables open and it was a slow night and they wanted to close the table. They didn't want to wait any longer and they finally gave me the dice without any money on the Pass/Don't Pass.
I established a point and then sevened out.
If anyone has ever seen a player without a pass or DP bet shoot the dice, please identify the casino -- I would like to call the casino and ask them about this.
Thanks
Oh, I've seen it, I've even done it, but its always been a mistake and the crew rectifies it promptly as soon as they realize I forgot to make the bet and they missed it. (I even turned to deal with the cocktail waitress and in so doing took the dice beyond the edge of the rail and out of the direct sight of the crew...I turned back, dropped the dice down immediately in front of me...turned back to the waitress and finished getting my drink/tipping done whatever it was...and then turned back to the table and picked up the dice. I'm pretty sure they were different dice, but don't know for certain.Quote: AlanMendelsonI have never seen anyone shoot without a pass or DP bet
Quote: AlanMendelsonI have never seen anyone shoot without a pass or DP bet. I always see non-passline / non-DP players passed for shooting because they don't want to make a passline or DP bet (usually field bettors).
If anyone has ever seen a player without a pass or DP bet shoot the dice, please identify the casino -- I would like to call the casino and ask them about this.
Thanks
In my previous post, I described a situation where I had two DC bets, no money on the Pass/DP and the shooter walked away after making his point. I was told to toss the dice in order to resolve my bets.
