What constitutes AP Craps play?

Controlled or, as you say, dice influencers.

Alan



You have an honest approach to this, your not sure it can done, but there is no harm in
trying.

The question i still have is i see this like any other athletic activity, and what comes with
that is the fact that day in and out all of us are not the same.

Babe Ruth hit many homes runs yet many days he struck out every time at the plate.
Bart Star may well have been one of the better quarterbacks of all time in terms of avoiding
interceptions, yet there days he had them.

They had enough good events to say they were better at hitting home runs or avoiding
interceptions than others.

I see dice influencing as similar, ups and downs, most people are not the same everyday.
If a DI throws 10 rolls and 6 are what you would term to be random and he needs to get
lucky on them to get to 10 rolls, i would rather have that than need to get lucky on all
10 to get to 10. If only 4 are controlled enough to cut down on there activity after they
hit the table, that may be enough.

So my question is do you think that four out of 10 is not enough to make a difference, or
do you feel no one can even do that.

Dicesetter

Quote: AlanMendelson

So I would like to return to a familiar theme of mine: trying to influence or control the dice does not hurt anyone. It might not help you, but it can't hurt you (unless of course you are doing something that violates the law such as tampering with the dice with glue, etc.)

Sure it can. Successfully influencing the dice means the die-face probabilities are no longer 1/6. That means some bets will become more player-favorable and some bets will become more house-favorable. You need to understand how that influence operates in order to know which bets got better and which got worse.

If you can successfully influence the dice, but you put your money on the bets that got worse, your expected loss is worse than normal. It'd be like switching the sign while card counting and increasing your bets while the count was negative. You might be the world's greatest card counter, but if you bet wrong you'll lose more money than if you just flat-bet. The same is true for dice: you might be the world's greatest dice influencer, but if you bet wrong you'll lose more money than if you just threw them randomly.

Quote: dicesitter

So my question is do you think that four out of 10 is not enough to make a difference, or
do you feel no one can even do that.

I don't know who is out there and what they can and cannot do.

I only know that there is no harm in trying. I try. I have played with the surgeon who showed exceptional skill but even with his skill he failed to have a hand/roll lasting longer than about 25 minutes. There was that "mystery shooter" at Caesars who I think had a roll for about 25 minutes. I have been at the tables with random shooters who have held the dice for much longer. Any my very first time with the dice, when I first stepped up to a craps table, I picked up the dice, shook them in my hand and kept folling for something like 45 minutes according to my brother-in-law who timed me because I was a first time shooter.

But to answer your specific question: Four out of ten what? Four out of ten hands that last 25 mintues or longer? Yeah, I would like to be with that guy when he shoots. Four out of ten making the point? Well, that doesn't impress me so much.

Quote: MathExtremist

you might be the world's greatest dice influencer, but if you bet wrong you'll lose more money than if you just threw them randomly.

I agree and I've said this all the time. If you think you are influencing the dice, then you have to bet on the numbers that you are getting. This is why a RSR or a SRR is meaningless. It doesn't matter if you have an SRR of 10 if you are only rolling 4s and your money is on 10.

Having a 25 minute roll has very little to do with skill. And you can't tell the difference between a shooter with an RSR of 8 (if one exists) or an RSR of 6 in any one or even several casino sessions by watching them, assuming both have decent looking shots. Both shooters will at times go off and get on a run and get extraordinary results. Both shooters will at times have plenty of short rolls. As several of the previous posts have stated, if one has an edge, then you have to know how to bet that edge. If you have an edge, it will likely be diluted or non-existent the more bets that are made at any one time on the table. So if you are looking for someone that is a true DI (again assuming that one exists) it is unlikely that person will be using something like the infamous 204 across and regression strategy. Instead, you would likely find them grinding the pass line and maybe one other number or maybe shooting from the don't.

Quote: JB85

Having a 25 minute roll has very little to do with skill. And you can't tell the difference between a shooter with an RSR of 8 (if one exists) or an RSR of 6 in any one or even several casino sessions by watching them, assuming both have decent looking shots. Both shooters will at times go off and get on a run and get extraordinary results. Both shooters will at times have plenty of short rolls. As several of the previous posts have stated, if one has an edge, then you have to know how to bet that edge. If you have an edge, it will likely be diluted or non-existent the more bets that are made at any one time on the table. So if you are looking for someone that is a true DI (again assuming that one exists) it is unlikely that person will be using something like the infamous 204 across and regression strategy. Instead, you would likely find them grinding the pass line and maybe one other number or maybe shooting from the don't.

Okay, if a DI has off times, and also has their good days, and I can't tell a DI based on multiple sessions playing with them, then how is a DI different than a random shooter?
How many sessions would it take to distinguish that a DI is really a DI, and not just another random shooter with some positive variance?

At some point a DI has to be accountable, or else how do you justify that they are a DI, and not just getting lucky ?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Okay, if a DI has off times, and also has their good days, and I can't tell a DI based on multiple sessions playing with them, then how is a DI different than a random shooter?
How many sessions would it take to distinguish that a DI is really a DI, and not just another random shooter with some positive variance?

At some point a DI has to be accountable, or else how do you justify that they are a DI, and not just getting lucky ?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? And why there will likely never be an answer to whether or not it's possible to influence the dice.

The way most people bet, which is usually pass line and a few numbers and try to press it up, it wouldn't make much of a difference at all. With this type of strategy, you are looking for winners and longer rolls to make money. So our hope is that mr random shooter or mr DI has a longer than normal roll...ie they get lucky. Over enough trials, you would obviously make more money on the DI with the 8 RSR but it wouldn't be noticeable from random in one casino session. Or several probably.

So I would say what I said above....if you see someone with a "good" shot and has a narrow scope of bets out and it looks like they are trying to pick off specific numbers that might be a person with an edge.

JB85


that is the point, no one plays with me or you enough to see what we can or can not do.
In the end you have to look at what you think you can do and play the best way you can.

As far as a person having a roll over 25 minutes. I think that is very common . Any of us that
have played awhile have had many , many rolls between 30-50 or more.

I have seen random guys have good rolls a number of times. but, Any long roll is luck generally, where
i feel some influence helps is the guy that gets to 10 more often has a better chance of hitting 20.

But the idea that i can play with Alan for a day or ahigh or any one and make a judgement on what
they do over time is questionable at best.

If we are over betting our skill level we will pay a price, and i guess as Math says if we are underbetting
or misbetting we will also.

dicesetter

Quote:

Frank Scoblete
The short term fluctuations in numbers appearing in a random game of craps have no impact on the future appearances of these numbers. Let me take this to absurdity then --- "I just saw the two hit four hundred times in a row! I'm getting on it right now."

Frank to start with we have get a definition of short run, and long run, as they pertain to the game of craps. This is a point that nobody on this board can agree on.

We all know that 10,000 rolls would be the long run, as far as the math of the game is concerned, and that if you were at the table for 10,000 rolls that most likely what the math of the game is saying would hold true. The problem for any craps player is they will never be there for those 10,000 rolls, in one sequence of rolls, and that is where the math guys get it wrong. For you to be playing in the long run, you have to stay at the table for 10,000 rolls of the dice!

Now all the casinos base every one of their games on the long run, they know that you will never be there for 10,000 rolls of the dice and the odds that the math guys have figured out, and the percentage of each bet that they take will beat you in the long run, because of the vig they take out of each bet you make! In other words the odds are in their favor, and we can all agree on that. We are after all playing a negative game! The smart casinos don’t sweat the money, they know that they make their money off the rolls per hour on a craps table, the more rolls per hour the more money they make.

One of the reasons, smart casinos try to speed up the game, and why they don’t like some fool, that can’t set the dice faster then a so-called random roller, that does all the silly things they do, with their little superstitious rituals, before they send the dice down the table!

Now on the other hand, you have some very foolish casinos, that have bought into all of the BS that our great fiction writers have written about the so-called DI. These guys have come up with BS stories of them taking millions of dollars off the casinos.

The stupid casinos that are so dumb they made all of their tables, so bouncy that the dice will not stay on the tables. Using that reasoning with their little pea brain idea,... that they would stop anybody that sets the dice from getting on a roll, and walking out of there casino with that million dollars!
These casinos are now spending all their time chasing the dice and if you happen to play in one of these casinos, you should never pick them up, let the boxmen use it as a weight loss program.
Why should you buy into to what they are doing and help them do it? They basically took their profit margin away by doing so, and should look at one of the slow motion videos on dice hitting the tablel, that these dice schools do not want anybody to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc

Now back to the short run!

“The short run is any session that does not go 10,000 rolls of the dice!”
It could be 10 rolls of the dice or 200 rolls of the dice, now how do all of us intelligent players know that? Well we all know that if the math of the game is to come out anywhere close to what all the math guys says it will, we need 10,000 rolls of the dice. That is what the math guys tell us, that all the theories are based on, and the odds of the game are based on!

Quote:

Frank Scoblete
In a RANDOM game, the appearance of all those twos is meaningless, totally meaningless for your future prospects should you start betting that number. The numbers at craps, given time, will reflect what probability is for those numbers. That is a fact. You can't look back over the last 10, 20, 80, 200 rolls and think you can now make predictions on the next 10, 20, 80 and 200 rolls.

Well Frank, if you believe in the math of the game like so many among us do, then there would be 77 more two’s that have to show up before the 10,000 rolls of the dice comes to a end, now in theory, they could come at any time in those 10,000 rolls of the dice and depending on when to step into the game, they could come in a big group again, just like those 200 two’s, that came in a two hundred group.

What all of you take out of context is your stepping into a game, that for most parts never stops at a busy casino, you never know when those 10,000 rolls started, or when they will end. Those rolls have nothing to do with you, because again you are never going to be there for the 10,000 rolls of the dice and there are always other players that are shooting the dice. You are only one small cog in the wheel of the bigger picture, of what is happening on the craps table.

That is why anything can happen, when you are playing craps, and the math of the game does not matter, as you pointed out Frank, with your example of the two hundred two's coming in a clump! What does matter is that you have the brains to take advantage of what you are seeing when you are playing, and most craps players lack that ability to act on what they are seeing.

We can not predict when the seven that will end the roll will come either, if you made one big bet, your short run would come as soon as that seven came and you lost your money. For you there would never be a long run, if you walked away, never to play craps again!

...

Quote: JB85

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? And why there will likely never be an answer to whether or not it's possible to influence the dice.

The way most people bet, which is usually pass line and a few numbers and try to press it up, it wouldn't make much of a difference at all. With this type of strategy, you are looking for winners and longer rolls to make money. So our hope is that mr random shooter or mr DI has a longer than normal roll...ie they get lucky. Over enough trials, you would obviously make more money on the DI with the 8 RSR but it wouldn't be noticeable from random in one casino session. Or several probably.

That's where statistics comes in. In one casino session, where the shooter is at a full table for a few hours and only touches the dice a few dozen times, that's true. But if a shooter really does have an RSR of 8, that is, they really do have the ability to throw 7s with probability 12.5% instead of 16.67%, that is statistically noticeable in as few as 360 rolls (chi^2 = 3.39% if the 7s occur with the altered 1/8 frequency), translating into 15 fewer 7s per 360 and 15 more non-sevens. If the table is otherwise empty, 360 rolls can be accomplished by a single player in an evening. After 1080 rolls, the high 2SD of 7s of an RSR 8 shooter barely touches the low 2SD of the random shooter. 2SD for the RSR 8 shooter is 135 +/- 21 7s, while the random shooter has a 2SD expectation of 180 +/- 25 7s. 1080 rolls is less than a week if you play a lot.

The point is that anyone who actually expects to throw a 7 only 12.5% of the time on an ongoing basis should know it. And as above, it would be nearly impossible to not make meaningful money with such a significant ability.

Quote: dicesitter

As far as a person having a roll over 25 minutes. I think that is very common .

Wow, a roll of over 25 minutes "common"? Yikes. I've played craps for four hours straight and no shooter held the dice for more than 5 minutes.

Is everyone really aware what 25 minutes is? Give me one 25 minute hand in a four hour session.... PLEASE.

Alan

Quote:

Alan M
Wow, a roll of over 25 minutes "common"? Yikes. I've played craps for four hours straight and no shooter held the dice for more than 5 minutes.

Is everyone really aware what 25 minutes is? Give me one 25 minute hand in a four hour session.... PLEASE.

25 min hands happen all the time, to bad you are always playing craps on the weekends when every fool in the world is playing craps! Just take one stick change and add five min's

Quote: superrick

25 min hands happen all the time, to bad you are always playing craps on the weekends when every fool in the world is playing craps! Just take one stick change and add five min's

Do you mean fools can't have long rolls? Or fools don't know how to tell time? LOL

Quote:

Alan M
Do you mean fools can't have long rolls? Or fools don't know how to tell time? LOL

Sorry to tell you this, but you are playing in the wrong casinos, and playing at the wrong times. You are just like every other craps player, you found a casino that you liked playing in and you will not change. You think that the reason you keep having bad luck, is your just having a bad day, and your luck will change if you just keep playing where you are comfortable playing. You never want to step out of your comfort zone!

When I’m writing about crap playing fools, I’m writing about the guys that only come to Vegas on the weekends, when they are full of every player that doesn’t know the first thing about playing craps! All they know is they have money burning a hole in their pocket, and don’t care if they win or lose!

Now, I know that you never gave it to much thought as to why you never run into any DI’s, but if you did you would have realized by now the these DI’s are not playing when your in town. They don’t play on the weekends, and if they do, they are not playing on full tables.

By the way fools have long rolls just like anybody that is called a DI, sometimes every fool on the table will have long rolls, and the DI’s will have nothing but PSO’s! Are you one of those fools, when you stand at the table and never bet on them, because you have been lead down the Yellow Brick Road by some fiction writer, which is telling his followers that they can never bet on one of those so-called random rollers?

...

Quote: superrick

Sorry to tell you this, but you are playing in the wrong casinos, and playing at the wrong times.

Now, I know that you never gave it to much thought as to why you never run into any DI’s, but if you did you would have realized by now the these DI’s are not playing when your in town. They don’t play on the weekends, and if they do, they are not playing on full tables.

Oh, I've played with many who considered themselves to be DIs. I've even met up with them at 5 in the morning. I've even played with them after our little "meet ups" and conventions in Vegas. I've played with the guys who wrote the books and did the TV shows (not Frank, haven't played with Frank yet) and I can tell you that not one of them has yet made me as much money as one of those random "fools" you have such disdain for.

Look, I believe in the idea that people can influence dice and even have a certain amount of control. But all those DIs and pros I play with still 7-out like everybody else and some do it awfully fast.

Yes, I've played with some of the "masters" but in the end they haven't mastered anything. Yet, hope springs eternal which is why I say keep trying.

Quote:

Alan M
Yes, I've played with some of the "masters" but in the end they haven't mastered anything. Yet, hope springs eternal which is why I say keep trying.

Aww yes, the old I’m an expert play! I guess that they are expert use car salesmen, but when it comes to shooting, they are just like every other so-called random roller on the table. Just because you practice shooting everyday, doesn’t mean that you’re going to have long rolls, you can fail miserably at any time.

Just remember the old saying some can do, others teach, or better put some make their money off the tables, others make their money selling, what they are teaching!

Then there are those that just don’t give a damn, and they get lucky when they go to the tables!

Just one reason I say there is no AP Craps Playing!

Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...

Quote: AlanMendelson

All those DIs and pros I play with still 7-out like everybody else and some do it awfully fast. Yes, I've played with some of the "masters" but in the end they haven't mastered anything. Yet, hope springs eternal which is why I say keep trying.

Ain't that always the end of the story. Just like the metaphor for life that craps is.

Quote: superrick

Just take one stick change and add five min's

The foolproof way would be two stick changes and add a couple of minutes. Otherwise you could shorten the measurement down to 15 or 20 minutes.

Here's my profile of what a bona fide successful AP craps player would possibly have as characteristics.

A) Not have to work and be worth $2,000,000 to $40,000,000
B) Be able to grind out a profit from craps play in the domain of per year (not per session or per month even)
C) Willing to help the casino make money by shooting against the general public's bet in exchange for less heat
D) Live in a home worth over $1,000,000 that could easily be paid off if it weren't already (EG: like this)
E) Drive a fancy car (EG: like these.)
F) Have a very beautiful lady friend (or two or three)
G) Have a game room and plenty of friends who shares in the spoils of being so successful
H) Be able to do all his own work and not need to take any classes at all
I) Be successful at other things that require good motor skills

That is my profile of what I think a successful AP craps player would look like. Not someone who takes money from other wanna-be gamblers or even gives advice to others about how to play the game and can't afford a million dollar or more house in Vegas. There are many more wanna-be's than the real deal. If they exist here in Vegas, you could possibly figure out who they were by going to the casinos with the largest bet limits and just asking around who makes the biggest bets and also appears to have a good shot.

I think a good number of folks who reckon themselves to be successful AP craps shooters are just fooling themselves and not considering that one who is truly successful has their house paid off and has to say "no" a lot to all the people that want to be part of the group of folks who would like to spend more time around this person.

It's easy to see successful poker players. They have their wins published. A successful AP craps player would have similar sized wins and would be celebrated by casinos, not barked at by them. You need winners to sell the game, ya know.

However, I don't see this player anywhere in town myself!!!

Quote: Ahigh

It's easy to see successful poker players. They have their wins published. A successful AP craps player would have similar sized wins and would be celebrated by casinos, not barked at by them. You need winners to sell the game, ya know.

Not a chance. Successful poker players make their money by beating other poker players. A successful AP craps player would make money beating the house. That'll never be celebrated. The history of card-counting countermeasures is ample evidence of that.

" The history of card-counting countermeasures is ample evidence of that. " The lack of new countermeasures tell me all I need
to know about AP crap play !

Quote:

aHigh
Here's my profile of what a bona fide successful AP craps player would possibly have as characteristics.

A) Not have to work and be worth $2,000,000 to $40,000,000
B) Be able to grind out a profit from craps play in the domain of per year (not per session or per month even)
C) Willing to help the casino make money by shooting against the general public's bet in exchange for less heat
D) Live in a home worth over $1,000,000 that could easily be paid off if it weren't already (EG: like this)
E) Drive a fancy car (EG: like these.)
F) Have a very beautiful lady friend (or two or three)
G) Have a game room and plenty of friends who shares in the spoils of being so successful
H) Be able to do all his own work and not need to take any classes at all
I) Be successful at other things that require good motor skills

Just one more guy living in La, La land, that would be an easy sell for an on axis dice school!

Quote:

aHigh
It's easy to see successful poker players. They have their wins published. A successful AP craps player would have similar sized wins and would be celebrated by casinos, not barked at by them. You need winners to sell the game, ya know.

While they do love the poker players, they hate everybody else that can win money off them, you have to remember a poker player is not winning money from a casino, they are winning their money off other players, and the casinos are taking a rake out of every pot, the casinos have nothing to lose!

Quote:

aHigh
C) Willing to help the casino make money by shooting against the general public's bet in exchange for less heat

They have these players in the casinos already, but some call them coolers working for the casino to stop a big roll, from happening. The next time the boxman or suit squeezes in a player right next to you , that is bumping into you every time you make a shot, or they have someone buy-in throwing money across the table as you are shooting, only to disappear when the shooter sevens out, you probably had the misfortune of meeting one of them. No, that doesn’t happen in all the casinos, but it still happens in some of them that are sweating the money!

Quote:

aHigh
D) Live in a home worth over $1,000,000 that could easily be paid off if it weren't already

Some of us don't want to live in a big home, there is no need to have one, we like the life style we live, and by the way a $1,000,000 home is nothing these days!

Quote:

aHigh
E) Drive a fancy car

Gee I buy American


Just because you have all the things that you wrote up in your post, they don't mean a thing, all they mean is you have the money to buy them!

Quote:

aHigh Have a very beautiful lady friend (or two or three)

Does my wife qualify?

I know some very good DI's but as I said before there still no such thing as a AP Craps Player, and none of the things you wrote about has anything to do with being a a DI or a AP Craps player!

...

Quote: Buzzard

The lack of new countermeasures tell me all I need to know about AP crap play !

There are PLENTY of counter-measures. Saying there is a "lack of new countermeasures" for AP craps play is extremely disingenuous.

Just to get started, if there were no concern for AP play, we wouldn't have to hit the back wall and there would not be such a variety of bounciness on various tables, and there would be no diamond shaped back walls.

If your key-word is "new" give me a definition of what is new versus not new. Are you saying there are no new counter measures in the last week? Year? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Give me a number, and I will demonstrate some counter-measures that are new in that time domain on specific tables including casino personnel's names who will verify that these countermeasures have been taken in the designated time domain and possibly even a specific reason why.

You can't just make things up to form a solid belief. You need to form your beliefs on real world facts instead of guesses.

Use the adjective disingenuous to describe behavior that's not totally honest or sincere.

I think that's a bit harsh. I am not In Vegas. But I have not read or seen anything new about crap tables or prohibitions about sliding
the dices, or having to hit the back wall. If you have , please enlighten me. 3 years seems a fair time table. and the key word is NEW.

Quote: superrick

I know some very good DI's but as I said before there still no such thing as a AP Craps Player

That's like saying you know some very good poker players but they never win. What makes those "very good" acquaintances even slightly good if they don't have a positive expectation on their bets?

I walked toward BJ pit and watched the game, player had 20, dealer 6, hole card 5, next came paint. And I said to myself:"Gee, she must know something". Next I went to roulette pit. One of the dealers smiled at players as he announced:"next number 15" . A minute later and the ball landed on 15. And I said to myself:"Gee, he must know something". Next I went to craps pit and I wondered, what do these people know? And they know the following. In 1989 the first book on dice control came out. Author explained in details of how you should handle the dice in order to keep it on axis. The popularity of the book faded away as readers realized that your hand should have a specific anatomical features. ( a somewhat smaller size with incredible flexibility in the joints, your thumb in particular). Than in 2005 came another book. Players who followed it began to win, but euphoria did not last long as casinos said:" sorry, it's no good!". So what old timers at a craps pit know when asked about dice control? They tell you that it can not be done or you need a specific hand for it. Music knows only one Mozart , unfortunately craps is no more different.

Quote: Ahigh

If your key-word is "new" give me a definition of what is new versus not new. Are you saying there are no new counter measures in the last week? Year? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Give me a number, and I will demonstrate some counter-measures that are new in that time domain on specific tables including casino personnel's names who will verify that these countermeasures have been taken in the designated time domain and possibly even a specific reason why.

My definition encompasses the several decades I have been playing craps. And those measures have remained remarkably consistent in all that time, although not always applied consistently. The mere experience that one or two casinos where one plays are enforcing some rule like hitting the far wall, keeping the dice at or below eye level, using one hand, etc. etc. does not void the validity of the statement about "the lack of new countermeasures."

Quote: Dicenor33

I walked toward BJ pit and watched the game, player had 20, dealer 6, hole card 5, next came paint. And I said to myself:"Gee, she must know something". Next I went to roulette pit. One of the dealers smiled at players as he announced:"next number 15" . A minute later and the ball landed on 15. And I said to myself:"Gee, he must know something". Next I went to craps pit and I wondered, what do these people know? And they know the following. In 1989 the first book on dice control came out. Author explained in details of how you should handle the dice in order to keep it on axis. The popularity of the book faded away as readers realized that your hand should have a specific anatomical features. ( a somewhat smaller size with incredible flexibility in the joints, your thumb in particular). Than in 2005 came another book. Players who followed it began to win, but euphoria did not last long as casinos said:" sorry, it's no good!". So what old timers at a craps pit know when asked about dice control? They tell you that it can not be done or you need a specific hand for it. Music knows only one Mozart , unfortunately craps is no more different.

Now I have heard it all. What this post lacks in accuracy it makes up for with creativity. The same could be said for many other posts on this forum. VERY creative some of them!

I think when people say "he had a good hand" maybe they meant something else and you got confused?

Quote: SanchoPanza

My definition encompasses the several decades I have been playing craps. And those measures have remained remarkably consistent in all that time, although not always applied consistently. The mere experience that one or two casinos where one plays are enforcing some rule like hitting the far wall, keeping the dice at or below eye level, using one hand, etc. etc. does not void the validity of the statement about "the lack of new countermeasures."

Can anyone tell me a counter-measure that is present in the Four Queens that is not present on any other dice table in Las Vegas? Bonus points if you know how long it has been in place. I know that Vegas Dice Controller (and probably Super Rick) know the answer to the "what" if not the "how long."

Tables routinely change what is under the felt when they put new felts on. This may not qualify as "new" protection in your book, however. But every time a felt gets changed, even without doing anything else, the table changes enough to create protection for the casino relative to anyone able to exploit it the day before.

Quote: Buzzard

Use the adjective disingenuous to describe behavior that's not totally honest or sincere.

I think that's a bit harsh. I am not In Vegas. But I have not read or seen anything new about crap tables or prohibitions about sliding
the dices, or having to hit the back wall. If you have , please enlighten me. 3 years seems a fair time table. and the key word is NEW.

Your argument was weak. Your lack of knowledge about "new countermeasures" doesn't tell you anything at all. It's a complete assumption on your part that because you don't know about countermeasures that they don't exist. The best countermeasure is the one that is not detectable. The player ideally wants each and every table to be the exact same, and the casino wants them all different. There's a similar thing with Pachinko machines. Pachinko operators bend nails sometimes on a daily basis to get the desired effect on the player's chances to win.

Your inability to know something is hardly evidence, and therefore your conclusion is disingenuous to me. It is a contrived conclusion simply meant to create controversy for the purpose of being counter to another perspective.

Quote: Ahigh

Tables routinely change what is under the felt when they put new felts on.

That has not been my observation. The felt, or now the polyurethane, is customarily attached to plywood. And unless you can come up with specific times and places, it will be extremely difficult for most folks here to subscribe to your contention.

I consulted on "The Cooler." There is no such thing as a cooler. It is a made up, mostly Hollywood idea that made an interesting movie. There are shills but these people just play to make it appear that someone is playing the game. I doubt there are many shills around any more --- maybe at poker.

Keep in mind that on a continuum there will be some players on the outer edges of "good" and "bad" luck. These outliers are just par for the random course of things. No way to predict who they will be unless you know those who make low-house edge bets and those who make high house edge bets and figure probabilities for each --- an impossible task without a lot of speculation; meaning guessing. (Yes, someone who wins Megabucks would be a good bet for the "good luck" outlier fringe.)

I am not surprised that those who are most adamant that dice control (dice influence) doesn't exist have no idea of what is really happening to those dice controllers who actually are or have been beating the casinos. I also find it interesting that some will say no dice controllers are winning or have won a lot of money. I guess there are still folks who believe card counting is a myth and buy into the idea presented in "Rain Man" that "no one can count into a six deck shoe."

As a general rule (just a general rule mind you) those who sound the most adamant versus dice control seem --- based on their posts --- to not really have a handle on the topic. I also think that those who advocate dice control (dice influence) sometimes get way too wound up about their opinion. In short, why care who believes or doesn't believe? If you are good at what you are doing those negativists are good cover for you. For non-believers those who do believe just fit into a category of fool or idiot. Everyone should be happy.

Quote: SanchoPanza

That has not been my observation. The felt, or now the polyurethane, is customarily attached to plywood. And unless you can come up with specific times and places, it will be extremely difficult for most folks here to subscribe to your contention.

Gold Coast has one of three tables that has an extra felt under the felt that was most recently replaced. It is the westerly most table.

Your assertion that "it will be extremely difficult for most folks here to subscribe to your contention" is presumptuous IMO.

Caesar's Palace has no fewer than THREE completely different types of back walls. Some with five diamonds high, some with six diamonds high, and some with seven diamonds high.

Wynn has tables with varying degrees of bounce and different materials underneath the felt. Likely to be additional felts but could be other things. An observation of the bounce characteristics of each table on a Friday night when all tables are in operation will easily verify this fact, and it is a fact, and a fact that any person working the pit would verify if asked if this is true.

I can give you plenty more examples, but double felting when replacing the felt is the most common way to keep the table bounce characteristics different after replacing the felt. There is no standard felt material, and each material has difference bounce characteristics. Each time a felt is changed, the bounce changes with it, and there is absolutely no question about this; it is a simple fact.

Currently, there is a hole in the felt right underneath the limit sign on the left side of the westerly most table at Gold Coast. If you inspect from that hole, you can see the other felt underneath. I pointed this out recently to the box person at the time. She laughed when I said it was "double felted" and said, "I think it's triple or quadruple felted!" It is a well known fact that this felt is both (A) bouncier and (B) less often played by regulars when it is open. Because it is less often played, it is opened only when the other two tables have already been open. This is another common characteristic of the bounciest tables in a pit with multiple tables. The bounciest table is opened last and is generally least preferred by regulars for well known reasons. If it were the only table open and/or opened first, it would possibly not be played at all by a more discriminating customer.

Now if you know more of the specific details of the similarities and differences between tables in Vegas and you can tell ME about those details as WELL as why they don't make a difference, go ahead. But I am just guessing that you are simply not as knowledgeable about these details as I am and as other regular players in Vegas are.

If you assume that dice control is possible, you must realize that the amount of bounce on the table affects a player's ability to obtain a desirable result. It's not as simple as more bounce is harder, even though many people believe this. But the amount of bounce will affect the player's ability to advantage play if he has profiled results on a similar or dissimilar table. All of this, assuming that it is possible in the first place, is very simple logic that I would find it difficult to believe anyone thinking otherwise (again given the assumption that AP play is possible in the first place).

" The best countermeasure is the one that is not detectable. " ROFLMAO

Quote: Buzzard

" The best countermeasure is the one that is not detectable. " ROFLMAO

There is the context of countermeasures to obtaining favorable outcomes on a craps table. But to make my point, how many people know about what is commonly referred to as the "washboard" at Four Queens. Most people do not detect that countermeasure as they don't typically touch the felt where the washboard is located.

This whole perspective of "you can't be right because I have no idea what you're talking about" is hilarious. I think Frank hit it on the head. The people who are the most skeptical are the least knowledgeable.

But if you're laughing at that, it's a laughter that is demonstrative of your ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

This Frank ?

How accurate was the History Channel show (The Dice Dominator) about you?

The show put me in with a dice control team at the beginning of my career and that the classes they taught were actually to get members for their team. Not so. That team bet low stakes and I was never involved with them. Also, most of the players on that team were not really all that skilled so that was inaccurate. Both Frank Scoblete and I discussed the Captain, the man who started all this dice control stuff in the modern casino, and his partner the Arm for several hours with the producer but none of that appeared in the show. However, the show did portray accurately how I am in a casino and the work I put in to the developing of my skill. Frank Scoblete, unfortunately, was portrayed as someone who was a lowlife instead of someone with three master’s degrees who is a real gentleman.

This is the comment I was referring to from Frank. But I do think that it's the same Frank. I'm really sorry that you're confused and unsure if the Frank I'm talking about and the one that you're talking about are the same person. Were you really not sure it was the same guy? ROFLMA. Touché!

Quote: FrankScoblete

As a general rule (just a general rule mind you) those who sound the most adamant versus dice control seem --- based on their posts --- to not really have a handle on the topic. I also think that those who advocate dice control (dice influence) sometimes get way too wound up about their opinion. In short, why care who believes or doesn't believe? If you are good at what you are doing those negativists are good cover for you. For non-believers those who do believe just fit into a category of fool or idiot. Everyone should be happy.

Also, nice job completely ignoring the point about ignorance relating to your argument. Very illustrative of the entire concept of ignorance.

Quote: Ahigh

Gold Coast has one of three tables that has an extra felt under the felt that was most recently replaced. It is the westerly most table.

Does that mean that the other two tables do not have the "extra felt" and that you witnessed the doubling up?

Quote: Ahigh

Your assertion that "it will be extremely difficult for most folks here to subscribe to your contention" is presumptuous IMO.

To the contrary, it is based on starkly consistent history.

Quote: Ahigh

Caesar's Palace has no fewer than THREE completely different types of back walls. Some with five diamonds high, some with six diamonds high, and some with seven diamonds high.

Are the diamonds all the same size or, to phrase it better, do the diamonds reach the same height on all walls on all tables? And isn't that quite high for a dice influencer to be hitting, even to the point of shooting off the table?

Quote: Ahigh

Wynn has tables with varying degrees of bounce and different materials underneath the felt. Likely to be additional felts but could be other things. An observation of the bounce characteristics of each table on a Friday night when all tables are in operation will easily verify this fact, and it is a fact, and a fact that any person working the pit would verify if asked if this is true.

Sounds like an utterly baseless assumption. But I'll be there in a few weeks to check on it.

Quote: Ahigh

I can give you plenty more examples, but double felting when replacing the felt is the most common way to keep the table bounce characteristics different after replacing the felt.

How many times have you witnessed that? As opposed to how many times with single felt?

Quote: Ahigh

Currently, there is a hole in the felt right underneath the limit sign on the left side of the westerly most table at Gold Coast. If you inspect from that hole, you can see the other felt underneath. I pointed this out recently to the box person at the time. She laughed when I said it was "double felted" and said, "I think it's triple or quadruple felted!"

Gee, maybe, just maybe a highly suggestible subject is being played and jerked around.

Ahigh


There is nothing you have said here that accurately reflects a DI or advantage player.

What you have described here is a fantasy. set there by some one that does not have those
things.

People that i know that are DI's and i think are advantage players if you want to use that word.

1.... have had their homes paid for years.

2 have or have had a very good job because they (paid) someone to help them get a
very good education
3.....have a very good wife that puts up with them

4.....goes to the casino and hardly anyone knows they are there

5.....Understands that every thing you do in a casino has a negative expectation and at
the end of the year, if they break even or make a tad are $15,000 - $30,000 ahead
of others that play the same games.
6.....And more than likely drive a very nice car that they paid for after paying some one
else to help them learn the tools used to be a success.


What you decribed above is some that is dreaming of being a high roller, that people cheer
when you come to the table, give you a chair if you want to set down, that gets offered the
best room in the house, that gets picked up by the casino.....


Ahigh i know alot of people like that, they get everything they want.

Two weeks ago soem of them got back from a 5 day trip in a private jet casino trip to to Cincy....

I will only use their first name .....

Wogo...... down over $15,000
D..............down $6500
Pt down $43,000
DV down $17,000
An down $7900
Jn Down $6600 ( after hitting to fire bets for $3600 each)

Not hard to be the guy you described above Ahigh..... but most people cant
be one for long.

i stayed home and made little over
$500 at a casino they feel is to dull. Now you can say hell i am not going to be a
big shot for $500, that is truly correct, but that weekend i was $15,500 better
than Wojo, $7000 better than D, $43,500 better than Pt, $17,500 better than
Dv $8400 better than An and only $7100 better than Jn.

Whats it worth to be a big shot????? You need to answer that, but people
that want to be big shots are a dime a dozen.


that is not the definintion of an AP.


Dicesetter

Superrick I don't know you, never met you, and forgive me but I don't know when you are being serious, or tongue in cheek, or sarcastic. Some of your last posts here have me confused.

When I talked about how I don't know of any dice influencers (or controllers) who have had better rolls than random shooters, you wrote:

Quote: superrick

Now, I know that you never gave it to much thought as to why you never run into any DI’s, but if you did you would have realized by now the these DI’s are not playing when your in town. They don’t play on the weekends, and if they do, they are not playing on full tables.

The above quote led me to believe that you believe there are "expert shooters" and I am just not playing with them.

But then you discuss your own ability but sum up the post with:

Quote: superrick

Just one reason I say there is no AP Craps Playing

So clear it up for me. What exactly is your positive on DI, DC and are you a DI or DC or expert shooter?

Quote: SanchoPanza

That has not been my observation. The felt, or now the polyurethane, is customarily attached to plywood. And unless you can come up with specific times and places, it will be extremely difficult for most folks here to subscribe to your contention.

I was at Caesars almost a year ago when new felts were installed on the tables. The new felts were put on top of the old felts. I asked the carpenter (I think that's what he was) who was in charge and he told me "that's how I always do it." Frankly, that came as a surprise to me because about five years ago when they were changing the felts, my son and I brought one of the layouts home. (I asked if I could take one of the old felts, but no, they were left on the tables.)

I even have a photo of the new layout going on top of an old layout on my website: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html The photo is with the article dated November 16, 2012.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Gee, maybe, just maybe a highly suggestible subject is being played and jerked around.

Your suggestion that I am highly suggestible is offensive. You are highly wrong in a highly obvious way and being defensive about it.

Double felted tables are a well known fact by just about every dealer in town. The fact that you would think otherwise makes you look very ignorant.

On a double felted table at Fiesta Henderson, you could actually make out the details of the old felt under the new one.

The whole idea that you represent the counter to my claim that casinos attempt to make their tables different from one another in the same casino is absolutely laughable. There is no question that this is being done. You would even have a difficult time that proving the there are no casinos that do this intentionally, and I could easily prove that they do if I sought out to do so.

Quote: superrick

Quote:

aHigh
Here's my profile of what a bona fide successful AP craps player would possibly have as characteristics.

A) Not have to work and be worth $2,000,000 to $40,000,000
B) Be able to grind out a profit from craps play in the domain of per year (not per session or per month even)
C) Willing to help the casino make money by shooting against the general public's bet in exchange for less heat
D) Live in a home worth over $1,000,000 that could easily be paid off if it weren't already (EG: like this)
E) Drive a fancy car (EG: like these.)
F) Have a very beautiful lady friend (or two or three)
G) Have a game room and plenty of friends who shares in the spoils of being so successful
H) Be able to do all his own work and not need to take any classes at all
I) Be successful at other things that require good motor skills

Just one more guy living in La, La land, that would be an easy sell for an on axis dice school!

Quote:

aHigh
It's easy to see successful poker players. They have their wins published. A successful AP craps player would have similar sized wins and would be celebrated by



fancy cars and beautiful girls friends?????? 2 out of 3 here.

























casinos, not barked at by them. You need winners to sell the game, ya know.

While they do love the poker players, they hate everybody else that can win money off them, you have to remember a poker player is not winning money from a casino, they are winning their money off other players, and the casinos are taking a rake out of every pot, the casinos have nothing to lose!

Quote:

aHigh
C) Willing to help the casino make money by shooting against the general public's bet in exchange for less heat

They have these players in the casinos already, but some call them coolers working for the casino to stop a big roll, from happening. The next time the boxman or suit squeezes in a player right next to you , that is bumping into you every time you make a shot, or they have someone buy-in throwing money across the table as you are shooting, only to disappear when the shooter sevens out, you probably had the misfortune of meeting one of them. No, that doesn’t happen in all the casinos, but it still happens in some of them that are sweating the money!

Quote:

aHigh
D) Live in a home worth over $1,000,000 that could easily be paid off if it weren't already

Some of us don't want to live in a big home, there is no need to have one, we like the life style we live, and by the way a $1,000,000 home is nothing these days!

Quote:

aHigh
E) Drive a fancy car

Gee I buy American


Just because you have all the things that you wrote up in your post, they don't mean a thing, all they mean is you have the money to buy them!

Quote:

aHigh Have a very beautiful lady friend (or two or three)

Does my wife qualify?

I know some very good DI's but as I said before there still no such thing as a AP Craps Player, and none of the things you wrote about has anything to do with being a a DI or a AP Craps player!

...

if those are...... her cars, she does.

dicesetter

Alan



I know your a smart guy, so i assume you jest in regards to the 25 minute roll.

I have to admit i dont pay any attention to how a roll is because you cant control
how long a roll is. There are all kinds of stupid stuff that happens, some joker or
two buys in during the roll, some forgets where in the hell their bets are, some people
are place betters some are come betters, there are always the middle of the table betters
that have no idea what they are doing.

As i have said before i play on mostly tubs here in Wisconsin, they take between 6 & 8
players at one time. I play mostly weekends, not that it is a good time to play, it is when
my wife wants to go play.

i sat up for 6 people on my table , and rolled a few hands of 20 rolls. No dumb stuff
just paying as fast as i could,... average time was about 23 minutes for the 20 rolls.

Now 20 rolls is nothing... i have no idea, but i bet i will see 6-10 of them tonight in the couple of
hours i play, i bet i will have 3 myself. I could be wrong, but what ever the number is i will
report to you tomorrow. Now when you get to 30 min-1 hr ( 30-50 rolls) that is a horse of another
color.

I dont question what you say,,,,i have no reason to, i just think your kidding about not playing with
a di that had a 25 minute roll.


Dicesetter

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was at Caesars almost a year ago when new felts were installed on the tables. The new felts were put on top of the old felts. I asked the carpenter (I think that's what he was) who was in charge and he told me "that's how I always do it." Frankly, that came as a surprise to me because about five years ago when they were changing the felts, my son and I brought one of the layouts home. (I asked if I could take one of the old felts, but no, they were left on the tables.)

So after, say, 10 or 20 years a table will have three, four, five, six or more felts? I don't think so.

Quote: SanchoPanza

So after, say, 10 or 20 years a table will have three, four, five, six or more felts? I don't think so.

This has got to be one of the stupidest conclusions that I have ever read, Sancho. If it were funny, I might laugh. But wow, that is a very unintelligent response ya got there.

It would be much more admirable if you could just admit that you were wrong in suggesting that double-felting is not a protection measure used by casinos.

There is absolutely no question that a double-felted table is avoided by several types of players as well. I think I could easily prove that point with statistics if it were more debatable, but I think it's pretty obvious. I also think that the casino already knows this as do dealers who have had their tables transitioned from single to double felt. You also chase dice a lot more. But the customers who are okay with a 100% random game and don't believe in dice control are not as annoyed by just having the game slowed down as customers who want a chance to try to beat the house with a table that seems more exploitable.

My conclusion about your posts Sancho is that you just aren't that knowledgeable on the subject of the game of craps. Just my take. Why not just stop posting about it or just limit your posts to asking questions to the people who actually know what they are talking about more than you do?

Also, I'm curious who else thinks that double-felting is not done specifically to create more randomness in the way that the dice bounce? Anyone? It could be just laziness on part of the person doing the work; I will admit that. But who here thinks that double-felting has no effect on a skilled player's ability to get more favorable outcomes on the table.

If you don't believe in DI, you are going to have to believe that it's just laziness, because the fact that some tables get double felted is evidence that you're wrong about DI being possible if it's not done from laziness alone. Certainly not conclusive evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

I think most reasonable folks know that under certain conditions, AP craps play is possible, and each casino is trying to appear to be exploitable without being exploitable. There are lots of details to this IMO. If there are no exploitable tables anywhere in Vegas, they still want them to all APPEAR exploitable.

Quote: Ahigh

This has got to be one of the stupidest conclusions that I have ever read, Sancho. If it were funny, I might laugh. But wow, that is a very unintelligent response ya got there.

It would be much more admirable if you could just admit that you were wrong in suggesting that double-felting is not a protection measure used by casinos.

There is absolutely no question that a double-felted table is avoided by several types of players as well. I think I could easily prove that point with statistics if it were more debatable, but I think it's pretty obvious. I also think that the casino already knows this as do dealers who have had their tables transitioned from single to double felt. You also chase dice a lot more. But the customers who are okay with a 100% random game and don't believe in dice control are not as annoyed by just having the game slowed down as customers who want a chance to try to beat the house with a table that seems more exploitable.

My conclusion about your posts Sancho is that you just aren't that knowledgeable on the subject of the game of craps. Just my take. Why not just stop posting about it or just limit your posts to asking questions to the people who actually know what they are talking about more than you do?

Looks like the old Ahigh is back. Everyone is wrong and you are right again.

I believe you have good information and knowledge on the game of craps itself, but your opinions on what casinos do and how they operate and their ideas on game protection are generally make believe. I don't know why you continue to insist on thinking you know what goes on behind the tables.

Stick to what you know. Tell us your stories of fun and luck and being banned. Keep using terms to make you sound important, like:

liquidating a coupon (translation - You used a coupon just like everyone else.)
grinding - (translation - you had a large bankroll that you were willing to risk to place small bets and win a small amount)
IE - (translation - What I just said is either not believable or doesn't make much sense or I don't think you can understand my intelligence so I'm going to describe it again at your level)

It's all so entertaining...


ZCore13