Craps at the Wynn, Warning Shooters

Did anyone here by any chance play craps at the Wynn over the weekend?

your obviously not a good looking girl with nice cans

Quote: treetopbuddy

your obviously not a good looking girl with nice cans

Quote: Beethoven9th

Touche!

No, only look!
I think there was some silly lawsuit about dice sliding and maybe somebody eventually got around to writing a memo about it and all the dealers had that memo read to them at the start of their shift. So the best thing to do is say "no hissy fits, these are perfectly valid rolls" and if it doesn't stop, go elsewhere.

Quote: FleaStiff

No, only look!

Quote: FleaStiff

So the best thing to do is say "no hissy fits, these are perfectly valid rolls" and if it doesn't stop, go elsewhere.

Ah, but in the context of shooting craps at the Wynn, these most assuredly are NOT valid rolls.

The casino makes up the rules on this issue, not the shooter.

You are correct though about leaving if you cannot or will not adjust your style of play to suit their requirements.

Vegas is not the place to play craps anymore. Come to the Midwest.

When I was WATCHING a craps game at the Plaza the staff there didn't seem to have a problem with it. One shooter would place two dice down on the table, arrange them a specific way and shoot them like he was aiming them. Routinely, only one die would hit the wall and no one seemed to care. The other players only seemed to be annoyed that this guy was taking so long.

deleted

Quote: RogerKint

When I was WATCHING a craps game at the Plaza the staff there didn't seem to have a problem with it. One shooter would place two dice down on the table, arrange them a specific way and shoot them like he was aiming them. Routinely, only one di would hit the wall and no one seemed to care. The other players only seemed to be annoyed that this guy was taking so long.

I see you met AHigh.

Quote: teddys

Vegas is not the place to play craps anymore. Come to the Midwest.

I don't think there are direct flights from Mexico, nor campy recreations of France, Greekified Rome, Venice, Egypt(?), etc :P

Besides, there are good craps games at MSS, Four Queens and even Binion's.

When I read stories like these I'm amazed.

At Caesars Windsor, I've never once seen the stick or box declare no roll for failing to hit the pyramids. Rolls land short of the back wall all the time and get allowed as long as it at least comes close. They only declare no roll if the dice leave the table. I've seen shooters launch the dice off the table 3-4 times and never get any kind of warning. If you end up with one of those wild shooters at your table it can be annoying as a player, but I've never once seen the dealers do anything about it except declare No Roll.

Also, as with any other casino, if somebody uses a second hand on the dice or switches hands, no roll is called and the box quickly inspects the dice. Again, I've seen people do this 2 or 3 times and still get no warning about potentially losing their turn with the dice.

The only time I've ever seen the dealers or box angry was when some guy (who clearly didn't know how to play) put a $25 PL bet down. Once a point was established, this guy picked up his $25 and put down a $5. The base dealer explained that the PL bet was a contract bet and the box threatened to call security if he did it again. He was allowed to keep playing though.

I believe that they are cracking down. It could just be the casino becoming aware of player dealer collusion and this being part of a larger counter measure to combat staff allowing questionable play in return for tokes

I never really understood why the casinos are so anal about the backwall. For most of us mortals once the dice are in the air they are random. The backwall has as much chance of making the seven show as it does preventing it from showing. Sliding the dice is completely different and anyone should be able to tell the difference.

Dealers hate reminding players about the back wall. It comes from above. Ie the punishment is directed at the players and the crew from policies up above.

It could be because the crew is being suspected of taking tokes for letting things slide.

I played at the Wynn four days ago on a 25 table. Coming out I set dice on 1431 threw an easy six on a short roll for my first shot. Stick man pointed out by saying "you know that both dice have to hit the back wall right?" I responded by saying "I didn't know the roll came up short but yes I know."

The stick then said "I only bring it up because I don't want to have to tell you every time you roll that you can't keep making short rolls."

I responded by saying, "this table is two inches taller than a standard table isn't it?"

I then placed a 30 dollar eight, and my second roll was another easy six. I then said "take down my eight there are plenty of other places I can play." And I left.

Quote:

Beethoven9th

Did anyone here by any chance play craps at the Wynn over the weekend? I ask because I played at 3 different tables there on Sat/Sun. They must be cracking down on the dealers or something because at all 3 tables the stick would have a minor fit whenever a player failed to hit the pyramids on the back wall.

So they got a new table game manager that is sweating the money and in the mean time running off their players. This happens all the time around Vegas! The funny thing is the casinos can't figure out what happened to their players and why they stopped playing there. Nobody wants to be hassled when they are playing craps. I've seen them run off random rollers, many time when they were just getting lucky.

When I post on different boards about what is happening in Vegas with all the BS that some of these table-games managers do, they all laugh and say that's not true, they never get any heat as we like to call it. This all stems from all the fiction that is written by our great fiction writers on the game of craps.
Nobody is going to take a half million off a $2000 buy-in as one of these great fiction writer wrote on one of the DI boards. Nor are you going to see someone making 19, 4's and 18, 10's in one hand like the same guy wrote.

Casino management reads these boards, and the worst thing that some of these boards allow is the fiction that is written on their boards.

All of these managers should look at some of the slow-motion videos that are on YouTube, like these:

Note: on the first one there are some shots that the hit right at the base of the pyramids on the back wall, without hitting the pyramids and the dice are still flying and bouncing all over the place.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e71mQWoNtTQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYo1XHjBNOw

All of these so-called DI's only have themselves to blame just like the card counter for allowing the BS that is written on these different DI boards.

No casino should let managers run off players because they are setting the dice and getting lucky!
Some of these pencil pushing fools that now run some of these casinos are running off good players that they should be making money on. The same thing goes for these suits that just sweat the money. They slow down the game and therefore get less rolls per hour. That ends up costing the casino money. If you don't have players that get lucky some of the time, you don't have any players. They will leave your games and never come back! There is nothing like pissing off a highroller! They will all be playing at the Bellagio Casino, were they have good management that understands that sometime they lose, but the house advantage will replace the money that they lost!

Just in case one of you pin heads are reading this board, please go out and buy "The Casino Management Handbook by Mark Tracy"

Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/The-casino-management-handbook-increasing/dp/0964514877

Quote:

From Chapter 4: Earlier we said that casinos can increase the Expected Hold on their live games by hiring proficient dealers and by making sure that players are treated hospitably.

I have a copy of it, just to understand what the casinos will do to try and take my money!

Quote: Ahigh

Dealers hate reminding players about the back wall. It comes from above. Ie the punishment is directed at the players and the crew from policies up above.

It could be because the crew is being suspected of taking tokes for letting things slide.

I played at the Wynn four days ago on a 25 table. Coming out I set dice on 1431 threw an easy six on a short roll for my first shot. Stick man pointed out by saying "you know that both dice have to hit the back wall right?" I responded by saying "I didn't know the roll came up short but yes I know."

The stick then said "I only bring it up because I don't want to have to tell you every time you roll that you can't keep making short rolls."

I responded by saying, "this table is two inches taller than a standard table isn't it?"

I then placed a 30 dollar eight, and my second roll was another easy six. I then said "take down my eight there are plenty of other places I can play." And I left.

Do you think possibly that this might have something to do with your visit a little while back where you announced you were going to make the table dump and then coincidently it did?
You also posted here about being able to short roll one die and influence it in your favor. These people are just people as well. You've said several times about enjoying stirring up the crew and causing irritation with them and enjoying it. What goes around comes around.
This is the part about the kid, the stick, and the hornet's that isn't much fun anymore.

What Rick said about heat, and manager's, and casino's and accountant's [aka pencil people]. The business model that seem's to be going on now with the 6/5 blackjack. I used to play bj often. I don't play it at all anymore. Sweat the money and absolute bottom line method of managing a casino business, I don't think you've taken into account that you've absolutely taken any enjoyment out of playing. I don't/can't count cards and I'm not a thief and I won't be treated as if I were.
At many crap tables I walk up to whether the table is busy or not I get the immediate feeling that of course I'm being sized up [expected] but it just seems like they think anyone not giving money to the slots is a cheat. It reminds me of sometimes of when I was a teenager going thru a 7-11 store with the curved mirrors everywhere and I'd have to walk past the wine cooler.
Yes, I set the dice when I throw. Sometimes they fly well, nobody controls the outcome. The bosses should have enough experience, authority and judgement to decide if the house is being ripped off. Red chip betters arn't a threat to the bottom line in a short game. But when the dealers or the box instantly get on a player and disrespect them especially mature players, like Rick said, were gone and won't be back.

Quote: Ahigh

I played at the Wynn four days ago on a 25 table. Coming out I set dice on 1431 threw an easy six on a short roll for my first shot. Stick man pointed out by saying "you know that both dice have to hit the back wall right?" I responded by saying "I didn't know the roll came up short but yes I know."

The stick then said "I only bring it up because I don't want to have to tell you every time you roll that you can't keep making short rolls."

Quote: Beethoven9th

Ahigh,

I can totally picture those guys at the Wynn saying that. Wouldn't surprise me if the guy on stick had an attitude as well. What's sad (for me) is that I had always had a high opinion of the Wynn's craps pit, but last weekend's behavior changed everything. If they don't want my action, then they won't get it. Also, I'm relatively generous when tipping, but now those tokes will go elsewhere. Nice going, Wynn.

Just out of curiosity, have you had any problems, such as above, at the Cosmo? A few months ago I got some grief for 'short' rolls over there, but it was only with one particular floor. I (and other players) have gotten warnings from dealers on other occasions, but they were much more tactful than the guys at the Wynn. I'll certainly play there again.

Each person is different. The Wynn wants obvious random shooters with big money. Anything else and you never know who is going to say what. Even random rolling if all you have is a minimum bet on the table, they might still bust your balls for not risking enough money.

I like to pick on the Wynn though because they do bigger craps action than anyone. If you can't pick on the big guy who can you pick on?

Also just having the publicity of squawking over money with the slider guys makes the whole thing more fun. Slide roll or not it is not that often you get public whining from a casino that let money leave the table where they cry foul after its gone.

Quote: MrRalph

I never really understood why the casinos are so anal about the backwall. For most of us mortals once the dice are in the air they are random. The backwall has as much chance of making the seven show as it does preventing it from showing. Sliding the dice is completely different and anyone should be able to tell the difference.

Well said.

Just one humorous story that is just the opposite of the tale from Wynn.

About a year ago Im at Gold Strike in Jean, wanting to play some cheap craps on the way to Vegas. I was the only one at the table, $3 passline, and only two dealers (one side open). I said to the stick, "do you mind if I try a slide just for fun?" He looks at me and says "go ahead." So I did a slide.

Well, the reason the casinos are so anal about getting a good roll is that part of the casino's responsibility to ALL the players is to make certain that the game "is on the square." This is a major factor for the dealers and bosses as well. One of the ways we counter so-called DI's is by insisting that when the dice are rolled, that they MUST bounce off the felt and off the back wall. Granted, the front line employees should exercise tact if a short roll is merely an accident, but if it's a continuing problem because someone is trying to manipulate not only the dice but also the game, then those employees are truly honor bound to ensure the game is "on the square", for ALL the players.

Yes. Its the latest management memo that defines reasonableness and the goal is to be fair to all players by keeping the game entirely on the up and up, but people's arms do get tired, mistakes are made and a few lousy "short" rolls is not cheating or anything but an inevitable occurrence in the real world. A stick or a box often opens his yap out of boredom if nothing else or out of a concern for following the latest memo and making sure the crew follows the latest management memo. Even the yapping Box or Yapping Stick doesn't really believe every somewhat weak throw is an intent to cheat the house of randomness. Heck many of those weak throws are losing ones for the poor shooter.

Quote: rudeboy99

...but if it's a continuing problem because someone is trying to manipulate not only the dice but also the game, then those employees are truly honor bound to ensure the game is "on the square", for ALL the players.

All Joking a side, you possibly could get your money back. The trouble is that you'd spend more on an attorney than you'd recoup.

The reason the Wynn is acting like they are is because a dice mechanic beat the hell out of them, and made them look like complete idiots. He slid the dice over a period of time without anyone objecting. Supposedly, several people lost jobs over the incident, and the Wynn is trying to get their money back.

Of course to many of us, this look like a case of "bad faith" on the part of the Wynn. After all, if the player was sliding the dice, then why didn't the dealers stop him? Is it because the Wynn is a "break in joint" that trains new dealers? Is it because their craps dealers are incompetent boobs? Or is it because the Wynn saw a foreign player and the opportunity to get the money back by creating a bureaucratic mess? This is the kind of dirty action that you'd expect from CAESARS, not the Wynn!

I'd love to see a billboard on the strip that says, "Have you lost money playing craps at the Wynn within the past year? If so, then you may be entitled to a full refund if your dice didn't hit the back wall" Contact attorney ....

Too Funny!

-Keyser

I'ma low-roller with flea-like tendnecies ;) Just the same, I've always felt very wellcome at the WynCore whenever I vist (mostly for sight-seeing and window-shopping (they don't ahve any affordable windows, either)). I've played twice: $10 in free slot play I got for signing up, and $30 at a carnival game the Wizard had reviewed (this was in 2010).

Last trip I went there right after a makeover, and I was lugging around a small suitcase. The idea was to just get on the SDX to go abck Downtown, but I decided to look around a bit firss. no less than three employees asked if I needed help with my bag. I left before a fourth had a chance (though one more asked if I needed a cab as I was leaving).

I like it there, even if their table minimums are too high for me. Maybe next time I'll play my traditional $10 in a long-long-long-shot high-jackpot slot there. I could use a WynCore ticket for a bookmark.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Just one humorous story that is just the opposite of the tale from Wynn.

About a year ago Im at Gold Strike in Jean, wanting to play some cheap craps on the way to Vegas. I was the only one at the table, $3 passline, and only two dealers (one side open). I said to the stick, "do you mind if I try a slide just for fun?" He looks at me and says "go ahead." So I did a slide.

Did you pull it off? If so, did they call no-roll?

Wynn

Only has himself to blame for what happened with the dice sliders, instead of paying his suits he took money off the dealers to pay them. They all make money from tips now, pretty damn stupid if you ask me. His management will now run off players, by one more stupid thing that they are doing, I just wonder how long it will last.

If I was a casino host that was looking for highrollers I would be hanging out at the craps tables at Wynn, just waiting for the pissed off player to leave the table so I could hand them one of my cards. What they are doing is based on superstitions and nothing more. Once the dice hit that table they are all over the place they have nothing to worry about. Most rolls that a DI will 7 out on are short rolls, all DI's are taught to hit the back wall. They are not trying to miss it, that would go against what they are taught.

Quote: rudeboy99

Well, the reason the casinos are so anal about getting a good roll is that part of the casino's responsibility to ALL the players is to make certain that the game "is on the square.".

Exactly. A casino is a business and it has rules and
it abides by those rules. Players often lose sight of
that and think its a place for 'fun'. The casino see's
no fun in their side of it at all, its about them making
money and you losing it.

I've been warned three times, and every time I've been warned I seven out on the next roll. But when I get warned I know to listen, since I'm young and only buy in for a couple hundred they probably wouldn't hesitate to throw me out.

Quote: GiorgioFromYuma

I've been warned three times, and every time I've been warned I seven out on the next roll. But when I get warned I know to listen, since I'm young and only buy in for a couple hundred they probably wouldn't hesitate to throw me out.

When you are doing well and the warning gets stern.. Just turn off your bets, come down and leave.. No theatrics just Go... There are literally too many places to play these days for any harassment... They will say there's "another sucker will take his place" and that's true... As long as it isn't you, it doesn't matter...


I had a situation one time in louisiana... I had my little 2000 buy in on a slow night.... Im very patient and observe things pretty well... Well as I looked around I noticed every one with their "grind out" faces... So I just observe the action passed the dice... When I passed the dice, for some reason, they got real mad and said... " you either need to shoot or make a bet"... Now I had only been at the table for 20-25 minutes. And There was no one standing waiting to play... So what was the reason for this? I think because of my young face they thought thy could muscle me into an irrational decision... But I'm too cool for that... Without any arguing I politely smiled, picked up my chips, and left... I drove an 1hr to Biloxi and won 6 grand playing all tall or small in the first 45 mins.

Too many places to play...

Quote: rudeboy99

Well, the reason the casinos are so anal about getting a good roll is that part of the casino's responsibility to ALL the players is to make certain that the game "is on the square." This is a major factor for the dealers and bosses as well. One of the ways we counter so-called DI's is by insisting that when the dice are rolled, that they MUST bounce off the felt and off the back wall. Granted, the front line employees should exercise tact if a short roll is merely an accident, but if it's a continuing problem because someone is trying to manipulate not only the dice but also the game, then those employees are truly honor bound to ensure the game is "on the square", for ALL the players.

Here, here!

*stomps feet, whistles*

The ONLY reason casinos do this is because they have read the fantasy stories of Mad Professor and others of his ilk who claim they've achieved a true edge via dice setting.

They haven't of course, but it only makes sense: would you leave the front door unlocked if you heard someone say he was going to walk in and rob you?

Lousy analogy, but you get the idea.

No, they do it because they've actually been hit by real dice teams, like at the Wynn, not the pretend kind that attend Scoblete seminars.

What I meant to say was that there is a fine line between between alienating random rollers who have an occasional short roll and someone who is doing it in manipulative fashion. Even the biggest lump of a dealer should be able to tell the difference and react accordingly. Although me and my crew wish all the good fortune possible to the players, we are compelled to take care of the house first. And sometimes this means following protocol laid down by management.

Quote: Keyser

No, they do it because they've actually been hit by real dice teams, like at the Wynn, not the pretend kind that attend Scoblete seminars.

What, they've been beaten by teams of highly skilled dice setters?

You gotta be kidding.

Wynn got hit by dice sliders; there's a huge difference.

The truth is that we don't know why Wynn changed its policy. Speculation may be such we may think they're getting killed by dice setters, but it might just a reaction to some casino pit boss enforcing rules of a game. It could have come from the legal department after the sliding incident. It probably didn't come from Ahigh's session there, but you never know how influential this forum is.

If you work at Wynn and are reading this, tell us why you changed the policy. Otherwise, it's all speculation.

Every casino goes through this from time to time and it usually follows a big loss where someone appeared to be getting an advantage throw over on the casino.

It will pass with time. That's my guess. The person in question was probably setting and throwing high dollar short roll winners.

Quote: Mr. V

What, they've been beaten by teams of highly skilled dice setters?

You gotta be kidding.

Wynn got hit by dice sliders; there's a huge difference.

I consider both to be basically the same. Sliding dice isn't an easy task and it is DEFINITELY a SKILL. And what you consider sliding isn't exactly what the dice are really doing. It is very much a controlled throw. Dice mechanics are not new. Slick mechanics have used "blanket rolls", "spin shots" (Archie Karas), and "sliding" long before people like Scoblete came up with their methods. The big difference is the old methods actually did work on an ideal felt top. Now, because of changes in the surfaces of the tables, such methods aren't very effective. Clearly the South American team found a weakness in the surfaces of the Wynn's craps tables. Every craps table surface is NOT the same.

Now below is part of an article to help you understand just how skilled someone needs to be in order to pull of what the South American team accomplished. I have no doubt that the mechanics practiced their act for countless hours before they became successful enough to win. What they managed to pull off was nothing short of stunning display of skill - similar to Archie Karas's performance at Binions..


Part of Bill Zender's article is pasted below. Note that what's below is from his article found at the link below.
"What is a dice slide? Source: http://www.worldgameprotection.com/the-catwalk/casino-ology/BOSVIEW/Anatomy-of-the-Dice-Slide-Everything-You-Need-to-Know/

"Most gaming people still believe a dice slide scam consists of a cheater sliding two dice down the length of the table, always face up and never turning or rotating. This is not true. First, a “throw” in this matter would be easily identifiable, not only by the casino employees but by the other players at the table. The dice cheater does not want the “slide” to look obvious and wants to conduct the sleight-of-hand-scam without detection. Second, based on properties of physics, a die that slides with absolutely no horizontal rotation, travels across the felt layout in a very unstable manner, and will have a tendency to “trip” or turn over. The more the die rotates or “spins”, the more likely it will maintain its level glide down the table and if it hits an object such as chips or the point marker (puck), the die won’t tip over."

"From my experience, the dice slide must have an element of deception while at the same time providing the cheater with a high degree of outcome accuracy. In almost all cases, the cheaters attempt to control only one die. The second die, bouncing and hopping randomly, transfers some of the attention away from the die that is not. In addition, the more successful slides incorporate a slight-of-hand manipulation to “spin” the die. The die is spun by the cheater through a ‘finger snapping” method. This creates spin which greatly increases the die’s stability while sliding down the layout. It adds an element of deception to the die’s appearance as well."

"Basic mathematics of the slide and the common wagering patterns"

"If the cheater can successfully control one die, how does it influence the outcome of a wager and how does the cheater take advantage of this situation? The game of craps is based on a two-dice outcome of 36 possible combinations. When a cheater is able to control or “kill” the side of one die, he cuts the roll possibilities down to 6."

"Although any side of the controlled die can be killed, the most common side is the “six.” When killing the six, the dice rolls will be six/one, six/two, six/three, six/four, six/five and six/six. The cheater will wager on all or a portion of these numbers when he attempts to control the dice. Anytime he bets these numbers or bets on the layout that covers a portion of these numbers, the dice slider has a sizeable advantage over the house."

"The first dice slide I ever witnessed incorporated the “field” bet into the betting scheme. Why the field bet? You notice that four of the six possible numbers (9, 10, 11, & 12) are winning field rolls. As an added bonus, the “12” is supported by a multiple payoff of “double” and sometimes “triple” in the field."

"Dice table 1"

"Table 1 illustrates the cheater’s mathematical advantage when controlling the “six” side of one die. The cheaters have an advantage (EV) over the house of 66.7% on the single field bet when the house pays “triple” in the field on 12. In Table 1’s example, a $1,200 field bet earns a theoretical win of $800. This scheme allows the cheaters to place one sizable field wager, usually at the last moment, adding to the distraction factor."

"In order to guarantee a winning result on every roll the cheaters may also make two additional wagers. The more common method is to bet the six/ace and six/two “on the hop.” The “hop” is a one roll wager that is placed on a specific combination; in this case the six/one combination and the six/two combination. If the cheaters place each of the two hop bets for $200, they’ll earn $1,600 each time the 6/1 or 6/2 is called [$3,000 (win) - $200 (losing hop) - $1,200 (losing field) = $1,600]."

"I have in my possession a video of a dice slide where the cheaters wagered only on hop bets. It illustrates an interesting build-up to the final dice slide. The cheater wagering made four hop wagers on the six/one, six/two, six/three, and six/four, and then had the stick dealer put him up on the eleven and twelve in the proposition wager boxes (along with a dealer two-way on the 11 & 12)." - End of from Bill Zender's article.

Bill Zender's article continues at http://www.worldgameprotection.com/the-catwalk/casino-ology/BOSVIEW/Anatomy-of-the-Dice-Slide-Everything-You-Need-to-Know/


-Keyser

Very interesting article.

And a couple key excerpts, that bring us back to the specific topic of this thread:

Quote:

Be sure that the players are instructed that they must roll the dice the length of the table, and if the dice don’t hit the back wall of the game, the dealer has the option to call “no roll.” Be sure that this policy is enforced in a friendly manner. Many players do not hit the back wall of the game on occasions and a harsh enforcement policy will hurt your ability to provide a high level of customer service.

Quote:

At the same time, management also needs to remain flexible with the player who rolls an occasional “short” roll. Running the table with an “iron fist” can be detrimental to customer service and long-term casino revenue.

correct link to sliding video [error was in article] should have been the below, I believe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdOQUWzPzKg

>When you are doing well and the warning gets stern.. Just turn off your bets, come down and leave.. No theatrics just Go...
>There are literally too many places to play these days for any harassment.
All fine and dandy if you are in Las Vegas.

>for some reason, they got real mad and said... ... But I'm too cool for that... I smiled, picked up my chips, and left
>... I drove an 1hr to Biloxi and won 6 grand playing all tall or small in the first 45 mins.
You see, the crew did the right thing by being rude... they saved their employer six grand!

Quote: Keyser

I consider both to be basically the same.

But the courts don't. In Skipper v. State, the Nevada court upheld Hubert Skipper's felony cheating conviction because he both slid the dice and used an accomplice to hide his sliding in order to prevent the crew from calling no-roll. The court wrote:

Quote: Skipper v. State

The game of craps understandably involves players who throw the dice in accordance with the rules of play. The rules of play require the "roll" of the dice, thus resulting in the dice either tumbling or bouncing off the end of the table as a result of the player's throw. The evidence adduced at trial indicated that craps dealers are trained to call a "no roll" unless the dice are thrown in the manner described. Thus players who may accidently slide the dice simply have their play nullified by the dealer's call. Skipper, however, sought to prevent the dealer from detecting and invalidating his method of play by utilizing a confederate to obscure the dealer's vision. In effect, Skipper was blind-folding the dealer while placing the dice on the table in a winning combination. This method of altering the elements of chance clearly constitutes cheating. Innocent players would not engage in this type of deceptive, manipulated play.

SKIPPER v. STATE, 879 P.2d 732 (1994)
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19941611879P2d732_11607.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006

The point is that a roll that either tumbles or bounces off the end of the table (whether "skilled" or otherwise) is a qualitatively different act than sliding the dice where one or both dice neither tumble nor bounce off the end of the table.

Quote:

MrV
The ONLY reason casinos do this is because they have read the fantasy stories of Mad Professor and others of his ilk who claim they've achieved a true edge via dice setting.

They haven't of course, but it only makes sense: would you leave the front door unlocked if you heard someone say he was going to walk in and rob you?

MrV

These guys have done more harm to the game of craps then the stupid management that believe them. They made the tables in some casinos so bouncy that nobody can keep the dice on the tables.
I just want to know what school on gaming did these fools go to. Casinos make money on rolls per hour, your not getting them if the dice are on the floor! Dice are random once they hit the table, watch the slow-motion videos guys! I have to give some credit to the table game managers on a few of the casinos around town that went back to normal tables, by removing all the padding they had under the felt. I'm sure it made them look like hero's because their win rate went up!

These fiction writers are so outrages in what they post it's down right funny, that anybody believes them. Here you have one that nobody has ever seen in a real casino writing that he is taking hundreds of thousands of dollars off the tables all the time, and now get these, he only writes that he plays in only a few casinos in Canada. Casinos are not your ATM's, if you win to much they ban you. On one of his few trip reports that he left Canada to play craps in Philadelphia he wrote that he found the worst tables I ever played on in the Sugarhouse Casino the best he every played on and that is were he made all his money on his trip.

Now in the Sugarhouse Casino defense it had nothing to do with the table, of course they were bouncy, the problem was with the players and the fact that you couldn't ever find a table that only had one or two players on it. They were always full, I even talk to a few of the dealers there asking them if there was ever a time that they didn't have players on them. Everybody that was on these tables thought that they were playing street craps, everytime there was a roll the table would stop to pay off all the field bets and prop bets. These dealers laugh at me for asking such a stupid question, then they told me to look around the casino and asked were do you think all this money is coming from, most of these guys don't work!

They also told me that they had a 47% table hold on their tables because of the way all the players there bet. Nothing this guy writes makes sense when you put a time line to what he wrote. Even his trips in Canada does not add up, like when he writes that he played at Windsor Casino, which is about a 4 hour drive from where he lives over by Toronto Canada. He plays craps there then he writes he drives home some times stopping at a different casino. All of this in the middle of the night, even in the winter time when you have the snow storms. I'm sure that on a different board he will find a post that he made saying that he carris carries some things with him so he can stay the night if he wants to.

He also writes that he banks his sleep so he can do things like that,..BS again, the worst thing you can do is drive tired!
So he has 8 hours of drive time to play craps and he leaves at 7 pm at night to drive there, and is back up writing more BS at 7am..all I can say is BS!

We all pay the price for all the fiction that is written by these guys. I think some of them work for the casinos, to keep the interest in craps up! The next time they tell you to hit the back wall or they are going to take the dice off you because you are now just getting lucky and you missed the back wall one time, Please thank out great fiction writers for the warning.

These egotistical maniacs are to blame for what we all go through, when we are just getting lucky for once in our life. Casinos only look at winners, never never see you when you are losing, and they are chasing off plenty of losers!

> ...
"...These guys have done more harm to the game of craps then the stupid management that believe them. They made the tables in some casinos so bouncy that nobody can keep the dice on the tables. I just want to know what school on gaming did these fools go to. Casinos make money on rolls per hour, ...you're not getting them if the dice are on the floor! ..."

Its the same thing with repetitive shuffling at Blackjack, the house edge does not make the house any money at all during the shuffle.

The house edge does not make the house any money at all while the errant dice are on the floor being tracked down. Nor does the house edge make the house any money when the crew are wasting their time needlessly insulting players are are doing their best and not employing any devices or blockers or conspirators.

I played in Chicago recently. At Hollywood Joliet, they gave me the "back wall" routine, so I passed the dice and left. At Harrah's, they had $2 minimums, 20x odds, $2 Chicago-style hotdogs, and terrific dealers (coincidentally an all-female crew including box - never seen that before). Guess which one I'll be returning to? I saw a dude in an Illinois hat ream into one of the dealers for taking down his hard four by mistake, and she apologized so profusely it completely took him off guard and he became docile. Kill 'em with kindness . . .

Quote:

Keyser
I consider both to be basically the same. Sliding dice isn't an easy task and it is DEFINITELY a SKILL. And what you consider sliding isn't exactly what the dice are really doing. It is very much a controlled throw. Dice mechanics are not new. Slick mechanics have used "blanket rolls", "spin shots" (Archie Karas), and "sliding" long before people like Scoblete came up with their methods. The big difference is the old methods actually did work on an ideal felt top. Now, because of changes in the surfaces of the tables, such methods aren't very effective. Clearly the South American team found a weakness in the surfaces of the Wynn's craps tables. Every craps table surface is NOT the same.

So Keyser I have one quick question for you ,..do you work for a casino in security?

Didn't you once write that you saw the video on what this team did at Wynn, or were you writing about these videos and I misunderstood what you wrote?

Quote:

Keyser
Slick mechanics have used "blanket rolls", "spin shots" (Archie Karas), and "sliding" long before people like Scoblete came up with their methods. The big difference is the old methods actually did work on an ideal felt top.

The blanket roll, was used on a blanket that the sharks cleaned up with it during world wars one and two and Scarne warned the servicemen about it, the same thing with the spin shot or the whip shots.
The whip shot would also work on a smooth hard surface like a table top!

I don't know where you got your information about (Archie Karas), I think you are trying to start one more urban legend, when you insinuated that he was cheating and using a trick shot. You may very well have good intentions, but please reference where you found that at, because everything I've read about him said he wasn't cheating, he was just getting lucky, until his luck ran out! Nobody ran him away from the tables, Archie Karas did not cheat, says Jack Binion , you can read about him here is a link:

http://www.richardmarcusbooks.com/2008/04/archie-karas-did-not-cheat-says-jack.htm

You can also read about him here is one more link: http://sextonscorner.com/v31PlayPokerFree.html

He himself said he made some stupid mistakes that cost him, basically he didn't know when to stop when he was ahead, the same mistake that most players make. The house will always grind you down if you let them!
The only shot that is illegal is the slide shot, everything that goes through the air and lands on the felt is a legal shot, if it hits the back wall. There should be no concern if one die hits the back wall and one doesn't if the shot was not a slider and was thrown through the air.

Quote:

From my experience, the dice slide must have an element of deception while at the same time providing the cheater with a high degree of outcome accuracy.

So will you please tell everybody what experience you have with seeing this slider shot in a casino, nobody but security or someone that worked for the casino would be able to see that video.
The guys that work in the eye in the sky can't even eat with anybody that works in the casino. I've been in a few of the eyes in the sky rooms in different casinos in town and again most of their employees don't even know where that room is.

I had to review elevator and escalator accidents, before we could turn them back on if someone was injured. If we didn't get to see the video we couldn't turn that equipment back on, for safety reasons, and would padlock it out of service, until a elevator inspector could check it out. Talk about getting the casinos attention really fast, if one of they main escalator or elevators was locked out of service! They welcomed us into their eye in the sky rooms, to review what happened!



Referencing where you found your information is one way of stopping the BS that are written on these boards.

I have heard this same claim about Archie. In fact, I believe the claim was from a dealer who also dealt to you and was comparing your shots to Archie's as he described your coming in. When he described what he saw, I could tell from the description that they were describing you.

I have not heard this from more than one dealer, so it's possible that there is a widely held misbelief about what shots Archie used.

Of course I believe that you could just find Archie and ask him too as I understand he is at the M every day according to a roulette dealer there who deals to him every day.

Quote: Supperick

I don't know where you got your information about (Archie Karas), I think you are trying to start one more urban legend, when you insinuated that he was cheating and using a trick shot. You may very well have good intentions, but please reference where you found that at, because everything I've read about him said he wasn't cheating, he was just getting lucky, until his luck ran out! Nobody ran him away from the tables, Archie Karas did not cheat, says Jack Binion , you can read about him here is a link:

I got the information from reading Jackie Newton. He's the one that advised Binion to add the pad below the felt after having watched Archie. It wasn't luck, according to Jackie Newton, and a ghost writer that helped him write his book.



Regarding some of the "Urban Legends" Some of us just have a bit more information than other people, because sometimes some of us have been there.

Quote: Supperick

From my experience, the dice slide must have an element of deception while at the same time providing the cheater with a high degree of outcome accuracy. So will you please tell everybody what experience you have with seeing this slider shot in a casino, nobody but security or someone that worked for the casino would be able to see that video.
The guys that work in the eye in the sky can't even eat with anybody that works in the casino. I've been in a few of the eyes in the sky rooms in different casinos in town and again most of their employees don't even know where that room is.

Regarding video of the Wynn incident, I never claimed to have any video. Bill Zender is the one that made that claim. Perhaps you'd like to accuse Bill Zender of having started the "urban legend"?

I simply cut and pasted his article from the website. Perhaps I should have pasted the source more than the two times that I did post it -at the beginning and at the end of the article? (This way, people with short attention spans don't confuse me as being the source of the video) :)

In the future, perhaps you should take more time to read what has been written? Is this where I'm supposed to use the giant font? :)


Regarding the surveillance room comment.... I doubt it, and I know what you're trying to imply. I'll just say that you don't strike me as being quite up to the task because you don't appear to have an eye for the fine details. However, if you'd like to prove me wrong, then feel free to provide us with a list of references and contact information.

Regarding your Richard Marcus references: You're joking, right? I feel that he's nothing more than a gypsy and a conman. Please don't ever use him as a reference for anything.

If you'd like to take the opportunity to edit your post, then let me know. This way I can edit this post so that you don't come across as being such a ..... (I'm sure you get the idea. ;) )

Regards,



-Keyser

Quote:

Keyser
I got the information from reading Jackie Newton. He's the one that advised Binion to add the pad below the felt after having watched Archie. It wasn't luck, according to Jackie Newton, or the ghost writer that helped him write his book.

I gave you some good links so you can get the real story, he was not a cheat, just a guy that had the Big Balls, to bet big and was getting lucky. It made for a good story to say he was cheating, but Jack even said he wasn't.

I've proven that some of these books you read,.. love to spice up their story with a little fiction. There has been a lot written about Archie and as I said before I never read where he was cheating, funny that there is only one book that would insinuate that he was, and was using a trick shot to do it, wouldn't you think everybody else would have wrote the same thing?

Quote:

Keyser
Regarding video of the Wynn incident, I never claimed to have any video. Bill Zender is the one that made that claim. Perhaps you'd like to accuse Bill Zender of having started the "urban legend"?

I simply cut and pasted his article. Perhaps I should have pasted the source more than the two times that I did post it -at the beginning and at the end of the article? (This way, people with short attention spans don't confuse me as being the source of the video) :)

So let me get this right so there is no doubt in anybody mind you have no experience in seeing a dice slide, except what you saw in Zenders video? Then why did you write this?

Quote:

Keyser
From my experience, the dice slide must have an element of deception while at the same time providing the cheater with a high degree of outcome accuracy. In almost all cases, the cheaters attempt to control only one die. The second die, bouncing and hopping randomly, transfers some of the attention away from the die that is not. In addition, the more successful slides incorporate a slight-of-hand manipulation to “spin” the die. The die is spun by the cheater through a ‘finger snapping” method. This creates spin which greatly increases the die’s stability while sliding down the layout. It adds an element of deception to the die’s appearance as well.

So is it that one video that made you an expert on sliding the dice, then I guess that we all are experts on dice sliding now, is that it?

Didn't you write this?

Quote:

Keyser
I have in my possession a video of a dice slide where the cheaters wagered only on hop bets. It illustrates an interesting build-up to the final dice slide. The cheater wagering made four hop wagers on the six/one, six/two, six/three, and six/four, and then had the stick dealer put him up on the eleven and twelve in the proposition wager boxes (along with a dealer two-way on the 11 & 12)."

So is this some video that you got off the internet or did it come from the eye in the sky?

Quote:

Keyser
Regarding your Richard Marcus references: You're joking, right? I feel that he's nothing more than a gypsy and a conman. Please don't ever use him as a reference for anything.

Well lets add this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Karas

Quote:

Keyser
Regarding the surveillance room comment.... I doubt it, and I know what you're trying to imply. I'll just say that you don't strike me as being quite up to the task because you don't appear to have an eye for the fine details. However, if you'd like to prove me wrong, then feel free to provide us with a list of references and contact information.

Well Keyser I have people that will back me up on that, I worked in a lot of the casinos, and its a standard practice for an elevator man to review an accident that happened on an elevator or escalator before they turn it back on!

I made it a practice to always walk by the craps tables if they were not out of my way when going through a casino, and watch some of the action, and also talking to the dealers, when they were in the EDR. “Employee Dining Room”! One of my favored question way have you ever seen someone sliding the dice. I think I only had one or two of them ever say that they did.

Without seeing the video of what happened in Wynn we will never get the real story! Just goes to show you what happens when you take food off the table of a dealer to give it to a suit.

Quote:

Keyser
Regarding some of the "Urban Legends" Some of us just have a bit more information than other people, because sometimes some of us have been there.

So really where have you been besides the internet, inquiring minds want to know?

By the way,.. Must have been a great book, I couldn't find one review on it on: http://www.amazon.com/Gentleman-Newton-Confessions-Crossroad-Gambler/dp/0615225330

But is did see where you could buy a used copy for $0.10

Supperick,

You can reread what I have written here: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13463-craps-at-the-wynn-warning-shooters/4/

You are still confusing what I have written and what has been written by Mr. Bill Zender. I do not have ANY video of the incident. He apparently does.

If you are still confused about what I have written, after having reread the post, then let me know. I will attempt to use smaller words and attempt to write shorter sentences, so that you can comprehend what I am writing. :)

Regarding your surveillance room experience. Please provide us with some casino names, references, and contact numbers.

Thanks,

Keyser.