MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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March 11th, 2013 at 11:10:24 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Paigowdan,
I've heard the term but could you throw in some for instances of shooter's "taking shots"?
Is that to you as someone attempting dice influencing?
Have you witnessed at a live game where you believed someone could influence the dice positively in their favor more than a random roll?
thanks, Petro



I don't want to answer for PaigowDan and I'm not a craps dealer, but DI isn't what he was referring to when talking about shot taking. Shot Takers are players who attempt to win, or at least not lose, through some deception. In blackjack it's the guy with the indistinct hand signal that could pass for 'hit' or 'stay', or any number of other ways players try to gain an advantage by seeming to do one thing and then claiming another.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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March 12th, 2013 at 12:52:56 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I don't want to answer for PaigowDan and I'm not a craps dealer, but DI isn't what he was referring to when talking about shot taking. Shot Takers are players who attempt to win, or at least not lose, through some deception. In blackjack it's the guy with the indistinct hand signal that could pass for 'hit' or 'stay', or any number of other ways players try to gain an advantage by seeming to do one thing and then claiming another.



This is exactly right. Setting dice is NOT shot taking at all - like any of that other jazz. And I dealt a lot of dice. Past-posting, arguing calls for money, and even Card counting is arguably shot taking, as all those provably have an effect the house edge. But DI is nothing at all, nothing to swear, and is all okay, or should be "that way" 100% okay - if done quickly and curteous on the game. 100% the story here as a dice dealer.

At the casino I worked at, you were allowed to set the dice, just as long as you didn't really slow down the game. I swear, I worked at the most reasonable, decent, and least superstitious casino in the United States. We were like, "Yes, please set your dice, so as long as you don't hold up the game."

ALL were fine with that. The crap tables drop tons of money and action, - and held 20%.

Dice setting was good & fine, and not a problem, where I dealt, - because the management saw that it didn't help or hurt the players, and our management was wise and decent to BOTH the dealers and the players. No floormen was allowed to be jerk or a dick, and those that were needlessly rude to players OR to dealers - were transfered to other properties, or fired as dead weight as "detrimental to our warm sustomer service." All players got comped generously, and were greated warmly and authenically - on a first name basis - by all dealers, as a rule. I mean, card counters who were backed off were only flat-betted, and THEN given a comp to the Fuego Steak House as an apology for it, - and were then invited to play dice and our CSM game.

"CRM" - our openly card-counting mathematican was totally welcome at Fiesta, was comped, and at at the worst just flat-betted, and invited to play ALL the other games - and I can testify to this! [So can he! just ask him] I - personally - was flummoxed by the politeness and tolerance of it all, - as a casino cop that I am. And boy, did we get customers and action. I do have to admit that!

I worked at a ridiculously "warm and fuzzy" casino, - a casino that treated both players and dealers very fairly - just so as long you didn't crinimally cheat, or abuse dealers or cocktail waitress. If it makes them happy, and they buy in, then quick dice setting has NO EFFECT - no mathematical basis - Then this is GOOD. Set dice reasonably quickly, rub a rabbit's foot, pray to San Muerta, just keep the dice game moving and happy.

Except for one floorman, "Louie," - who came from old school casinos downtown, and was paranoid and superstitious about table loses and dice setters. He was superstitious and moronic as all hell about dice as a boxman. Just horrible to work with! I almost hit him with the stick as part of my stick calls, as did the rest of the crew! When the dice got hot, - and when the dealers were actually making tips, - he'd be muttering the Rosary, or moaning and cursing...."I'm gonna get fired, Danny...we're down $3,000 on this table - they're WATCHING me lose the money for the house, they're gonna fire me, Danny, TURN THE DICE!! AAAUUGH!!" No one took him seriously, and even the dice dealers talked back to him to stop his asinine "sweating the money." Especially me, although I like him in many other ways. it was like, LET the shooter roll or set a die for a moment, sheesh, if he likes to, - leave him the hell alone when he is shooting!! I came damn close to asking this old fool to tap me out on stick and run the game - if he didn't do a fill on a BJ game on the other end of the pit!

He was told many times to not sweat the money, to allow crap players take a moment to set the dice, to not turn the dice when on box if the table was hot, - and to not tell his dealers "your losing money on MY crap table, - and I'll send you to Roulette if you sing!" Hector and Bill were like, "Louie, you're pissing off players and dealers, - and you are COSTING US MONEY BY SWEATING THE MONEY, AND PISSING OFF PLAYERS AND DEALERS, FOR NO FUCKING REASON, - AND WE DON'T LIKE IT."

The day Louie turned 62 and retired, there was no party, no nothing, and he never was seen again at the Fiesta - or ANY stations property. As far as I know, he wasn't seen in Las Vegas. He had money and property, and he LEFT the business - practically on demand at the end. He was about as knowledgable, as pleasant, and as productive in his gaming work as a ghost in his last ten years of a 40 year career, because he trusted superstition instead of mathematics and reasonable business practices. [Now, card counting CAN beat the house; DI cannot].

This is to say, because he feared that dice setting worked, and by turning the dice on players, and by saying the Rosary under his breath - when the dice got hot - he pissed off crap players - who ARE our very business and life-blood - and UPSET casino operations from the dealer level on up to an unacceptable level.

By all means - set the dice if you want, when they are in your hand, but just take a moment. IF a boxman so dares as to cry, bitch, moan, or say a Rosary - then GO TO another casino! And...write a note to the Shift amanager/Casino manager, that some old fool needs to leave your business.

You can take a second or two to hit or stand on 15 against a 10 in blackjack. And you can also take that moment ot two, to "get the dice into your hands."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
petroglyph
petroglyph
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March 12th, 2013 at 2:13:32 AM permalink
Dan, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I've asked sticks and basedealers but they really couldn't really elaborate. From what you say here and in you next post this helps me. It seems to me "taking a shot" any way is stroking the dealer [meaning i recently learned], but capping and swithcing the money to me is cheating. That's crossed over the line and is at least attemted theft. Ok, I got that. I'm loosely friends with some crap dealers whom I've played with for years and they treat me well and pleasant, accurate with my wagers, courtious. I do not want them to lose their way of supporting themselves because somebody is top capping their stack or other. I'd personally let the box or floor know about it discreetly if it were'nt picked up on during the confusion. I don't want these dealers losing their liveliehood cuz someone is a thief.
Those dealers try to give me the best deal available, like they told me, your tipping won't change the payout but it will improve your service. I as a customer want it no other way. The OP on this thread, you being a professional dealer is way more important to the game than making funny. It seems some newer dealers are trying to bluster their way thru with talking alot, or covering up they don't have the know figured out like they should and the humor is a nervous trait to cover insecurity. There'll still be plenty of time to cut up with the clients without making it a goal right now.
Thanks for the op on dice setting! I have been doing it for about 3 years now and I just can't stand to pick them up and throw them like a girl. I have a little finesse, swagger even. When they fly together it looks really cool. And sometimes I get some good numbers, and sometimes I don't. I've not been able to prove di works even to myself who is attempting to, on a topic that's been hashed over and over. I've seen other's take their shot at it and every single player I have seen seven's away. Most rolls are short with rolls not seeming any longer than other's, just seems like some style to it.
I'm glad you responded to the question, it would have been easy to shy away as it is still a hot topic, but to me it's mostly about attitude of either the shooter's announcing they are going to cause a big table dump or just generally putting the pit crew on high alert. The numbers don't change very much if at all. IMO
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2013 at 4:10:34 AM permalink
Quote: Stoney

i had a dealer once who called out the numbers as famous athletes jersey number. "Air Jordan. dice came 2-3" or "Pete Rose. dice came 1-4". some weren't as well known as others, but he named them all. and some he had multiples... like using Shaq for the 3-2, instead of 2-3. i can't imagine the time he spent memorizing them all.



Do be careful about this, when I was in dealer school the instructor said they were working a deal with a local, famous running back and while it was OK to do it in class don't do it on the floor because it could have affected negotiations or been some kind of infringement.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 12th, 2013 at 5:27:45 AM permalink
Shot taker... a player who tries to gain some undeserved break by lying such as falsely claiming to have had a bet down that the dealer removed or to having called his odds off or some other brazen attempt at cheating.

Dice Setter.... one of these infernal Control The Universe types that often take forever and a day to position the dice so that the axis is in alignment with the Stars. I pick two dice up and I throw them down the table... no song, no dance, no hem, no haw.

Sweat The Money... an attitude adopted by the House and telegraphed to the players by the employees that its OUR money and you are not supposed to be winning, only losing. The cheap floors who think a player who wins is taking money out of the floor's own pockets are the people who such all the fun out of the game.

Sure dealers can talk and crack an occasional joke or engage in some banter with that half naked cocktail waitress and the like. Its okay to make it a sociable event but don't try to turn it into a Party Pit. I'm there to shoot craps not pay a cleavage tax and shoot the breeze about some football game or football legend. Even if I only have five dollars on the line, I want to hear the number that was rolled, not some obscure sports code relating to it.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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March 12th, 2013 at 6:34:50 AM permalink
Hard 4 "The Bishop...Desmond....TU TU
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 12th, 2013 at 7:21:18 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Hard 4 "The Bishop...Desmond....TU TU

Not funny, not clever, just annoying. I've got five dollars riding on that roll. It took me a long time to panhandle that money...I'm serious about it and I don't want no jokes about tutus or mumus.
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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March 12th, 2013 at 7:52:16 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Hard 4 "The Bishop...Desmond....TU TU

Bishop Muzerewa.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ahigh
Ahigh
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March 12th, 2013 at 8:38:16 AM permalink
Just very quickly, I will say that I never developed any sort of shot at Fiesta Rancho. There are many variables to each table. I would gamble here and I enjoyed the $3 minimums. The 20% hold is a feature of low-minimum tables where more pays are rounded down.

But there were many things at the table at Fiesta Rancho that a player who intended to gain an advantage from would not find.

The last time they re-felted, they left the previous felt under. This caused the table bounce characteristics to change dramatically. I won't talk about other details that prevented me from having more favorable outcomes on this table, but there are many.

Some things that I liked about Fiesta Rancho was that there was not a whole lot of big action and I enjoyed the personal service that Dan refers to.

When you are developing a controlled throw, however, landing the dice where you intend to land them is something that you can practice on any table, and it was worth my penny-a-roll plus tips to get time to play on this table.

If you live in Vegas, you really don't need your own craps table to get good at throwing the dice. It's cheap enough just to bet the minimum on the line and nothing else and practice that way.
petroglyph
petroglyph
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March 12th, 2013 at 9:04:10 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Shot taker... a player who tries to gain some undeserved break by lying such as falsely claiming to have had a bet down that the dealer removed or to having called his odds off or some other brazen attempt at cheating.

Dice Setter.... one of these infernal Control The Universe types that often take forever and a day to position the dice so that the axis is in alignment with the Stars. I pick two dice up and I throw them down the table... no song, no dance, no hem, no haw.

Sweat The Money... an attitude adopted by the House and telegraphed to the players by the employees that its OUR money and you are not supposed to be winning, only losing. The cheap floors who think a player who wins is taking money out of the floor's own pockets are the people who such all the fun out of the game.

Sure dealers can talk and crack an occasional joke or engage in some banter with that half naked cocktail waitress and the like. Its okay to make it a sociable event but don't try to turn it into a Party Pit. I'm there to shoot craps not pay a cleavage tax and shoot the breeze about some football game or football legend. Even if I only have five dollars on the line, I want to hear the number that was rolled, not some obscure sports code relating to it.



Good post Fleastiff! I really like the part about "cleavage tax" lol, I gotta borrow that

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