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Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
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January 30th, 2013 at 9:13:27 AM permalink
Superrick, Colorado gaming goes by the regs. Do they ever ! In 2001 Digital 21 was trialed at the Isle. Gaming came in one day and made management tape a discard rack onto the table, so it would comply with regs.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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January 30th, 2013 at 9:36:31 AM permalink
First, I want to say that the taxing issue is a non-issue and really has nothing to do with the question about whether or not fair dice are being used. Leave taxes for another day.

I am more interested in the dice issue -- all by itself -- because that's the question.

I cannot accept the notion that a casino would willingly introduce unbalanced dice onto a table. Frankly, Ive only seen wrapped sticks brought to tables and never saw them checked for balance. Do casinos check the dice or do they accept them with the understanding that they are manufactured to be fair?

Perhaps the casinos are not at fault but the manufacturers are? And the casinos are at fault for not checking the dice?

When new cards are introduced into a poker game, the cards are checked for marks. It would make sense to me that the dice are checked for balance, but perhaps they aren't??

I think there are some casino employees here. Do you check the dice or just accept them as-is from the factory?
Ahigh
Ahigh
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January 30th, 2013 at 9:48:27 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Perhaps the casinos are not at fault but the manufacturers are? And the casinos are at fault for not checking the dice?



*IF* there is anything to be worried about the casinos should be MORE worried about it than the players.

That is a BIG if.

But not a single casino that I know of in Las Vegas does anything related to testing density of the pips. And if they were doing it (clandestinely), they would be doing it in a back room somewhere out of sight.

At the Silverton, where I play most often, they have a micrometer (or "mic" as they refer to it), and they "mic" the dice with this old jalopy. It's no better than the "mic" that I bought for $50, and it has an analog readout.

The point is this: all they do is measure shit with a really old piece of crap mic, and that's IT.

Everything else is based on superstition, effectively. If the table is dumping CHANGE THE FUCKING DICE!!!

You don't have to play there long to see this happen. They don't give a shit what possible explanations there are they are just going to create as much choas as possible with the dealers and pretending to make mistakes on bets to get everybody worried about the dice slowing down and anything else hoping for the seven to finally come around. As soon as the seven out comes, HERE COMES A NEW STICK OF DICE. Thank you very much and GOOD LUCK!
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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January 30th, 2013 at 10:22:12 AM permalink
Ive never seen the dice changed because the table was "hot," but only because it was "that time" for new dice which is usually about three times a day.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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January 30th, 2013 at 10:26:34 AM permalink
Every place has different policies for when to change the dice and which dice to use. Some are corporate policies, some are up to the pit boss. But they are different at each place in general.

I am talking about the Silverton. Table dumps ==> change dice!!!
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
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January 30th, 2013 at 10:47:30 AM permalink
.......
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
Harley
Harley
Joined: May 13, 2012
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January 30th, 2013 at 1:37:12 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


I am more interested in the dice issue -- all by itself -- because that's the question.

I cannot accept the notion that a casino would willingly introduce unbalanced dice onto a table. Frankly, Ive only seen wrapped sticks brought to tables and never saw them checked for balance. Do casinos check the dice or do they accept them with the understanding that they are manufactured to be fair?

Perhaps the casinos are not at fault but the manufacturers are? And the casinos are at fault for not checking the dice?

When new cards are introduced into a poker game, the cards are checked for marks. It would make sense to me that the dice are checked for balance, but perhaps they aren't??

I think there are some casino employees here. Do you check the dice or just accept them as-is from the factory?



Alan, I have talked to countless Pit Supervisors and Table Game Supervisors with various answers, most are on our website ... for Instance, the Golden Gate Tables Games Supervisor was sitting as Boxman for the regular Box that went to lunch ... I was kidding about how many 6/1 Seven-outs were dominating the table so I asked him if he balanced the dice .... he would not answer .... after a few minutes and several more 6/1 Seven-outs , I asked why he would allow such unbalanced dice on his tables ..... he did not deny that his dice were unbalanced but simply stated that the dice
Quote:

"were purchased from a dice factory that was approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission"

... I professionally responded
Quote:

That is the same Nevada Gaming Commission that you pay their salary and pensions

.... he did not reply as I walked away
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Harley
Harley
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January 30th, 2013 at 1:46:43 PM permalink
Alan M, Also 3 members of our Dice Research Team were fortunate to have a meeting with the owner of a local Las Vegas Dice Company a few years ago. This particular Dice Company supplies dice to several Las Vegas casinos according to the owner as he named several key casino contacts that buy his dice.

He further mentioned that his Dice factory was producing at near full capacity now since he was able to convince casinos that his dice are:

1. Better than Paulson dice ..... since his dice are within 2/10,000ths of an inch of being perfectly square compared to Paulson dice which are made to Atlantic City standards of 6/10,000ths of an inch

2. Cheaper than the market ..... he said most dice sticks are selling at $4.00 to the casinos -- but he is able to offer his sticks at about $2.85

So we asked him if he had a professional grade dice balancing caliper to measure our dice we just bought in the Gambler's Store. He stated:

Quote:

No, I don't have a balancer of any kind in the factory since my dice are near perfect.



the Dice Factory owner said let's measure a NEW stick of dice right off the assembly line. So he retrieved a stick, put in the micrometer to show that it was near perfectly square ...... Then he put the dice on the balancing caliper and the whole stick of dice wobbled consistently to the 5s & 6s up

This dice factory specialist went on to explain (or defend his dice) by saying that it was hard to get the pips to exact weight since they were made of a resin and inserted into an acetate cube (2 different materials being mixed together) ....... He also stated that he did not polish or sand down the pips after they were inserted so they are not perfectly flush, but still within tolerance according to Atlantic City standards and to Nevada since there were no regulations here.

A member of our Dice Research Team met with the Nevada Gaming Commission and reported this dice factory to them. Within 6 months the dice factory moved to Mexico, but still supplied dice to Las Vegas Strip casinos just like before .... the difference now is the Nevada Gaming Board does not have jurisdiction over a factory in Mexico .... or any in China either.
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Ahigh
Ahigh
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January 30th, 2013 at 2:54:58 PM permalink
I still think the unbalanced thing is ridiculous overall.

But let's just assume that it's possible. Do you already have a way that I can run a Monte Carlo simulator for biased dice to come up with how it helps the casino make more money on both the standard passline better and don't better as well?

IE: for a stick of five dice, instead of 16.66% for each face, give me 30 percentages for each face of each die that would accomplish something that would universally benefit the casino.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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January 30th, 2013 at 3:05:29 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I still think the unbalanced thing is ridiculous overall.

But let's just assume that it's possible. Do you already have a way that I can run a Monte Carlo simulator for biased dice to come up with how it helps the casino make more money on both the standard passline better and don't better as well?

IE: for a stick of five dice, instead of 16.66% for each face, give me 30 percentages for each face of each die that would accomplish something that would universally benefit the casino.



This can't be done for a casino, unless you have the data on what bets craps players make and in what proportions. If you are at a table with 100 x odds, and people are actually betting those odds, that will be far different from a table where there is a big betting 'don't' player. I don't play enough to know, but my limited experience tells me that if the casino increased the '7 outs' versus the points, the money on the right side usually dwarfs the money on the wrong side. I think if you asked a casino executive if every roll was point, seven, out, the casino would take that.

One monkey wrench in the simulation would be if the bias was visible enough, and players started changing their betting patterns. If snake eyes hit enough and players felt it was not a coincidence, then instead of betting the 'yo', they would take advantage of the aces....

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