Controlled throwing device (CTD)

Quote: SOOPOO

The one throw had the left die bouncing wildly to the right, the right die bouncing wildly to the left. I will be happy to wager that this machine, or any iteration of it, has ZERO dice influencing ability, assuming casino rules are followed.

This video is just the first trial of a very rough prototype. I would expect significant improvement as development progresses.

Quote: tupp

Actually, it is not a single, certain number at a given regularity that should be considered -- it is any "non-loss" number.

I'll assume that if I give it time I can wrap my mind around what you are saying. I mean, it makes sense, but what to do with that in Wincraps is another matter.

Quote: tupp

I'd like a sponsor, too! We'll budget for play at the Wynn, but actually run the trials at the $1 tables at Joker's Wild and the Fortune!

I forgot there are such things as 10x at a dollar table, wondering instead if 10x at a $10 table will go bye-bye for me at some time, changing to $15 or more.

Wincraps trials have suggested $75,000 is not excessive for a bankroll for the former.

Ahigh


Random is still Random.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWlhDn24Wo&feature=youtu.be

If you think those dice are going to come up with anything but random results, I feel for you!

I got to give you credit for trying, and being so focused on trying to prove that you could control the dice. The problem all goes back to one thing, and that is, we aren't machines. Even with the dice just landing without touching the back wall, they well still come up differently when they are thrown.

You seem to do a lot of comparing shooting dice with other type of things that people do, this has been a long on going argument between the non believes and the guys that call themselves DI's. You could be a professional golf pro, and guess what even, though you are considered the best in the world, you can't sink every putt that you make, if you were a pitcher, all your pitches wouldn't be a strikes. Professional bowlers don't have 300 games every time they are bowling. Look my list goes on and on, I think you can see where I'm going, with my way of thinking, nobody perfect!

Thank's for this link, it just goes to show you what I'm writing about. Read the below quote!

http://www.shockandawesome.com/

Quote:

From the USA GUINNESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS 1986:
"Highest score records are meaningless because of the tremendous variance between the games and cassettes available for play at home and in arcades. Each machine, each joy stick setting, each environment is different so that skill and endurance cannot be measured and compared with precision. Therefore the only records worth publishing are those of contest winners."

Quote:

The same could be said for your home table, and the videos you are making, only because you are taking one little snippet of video and showing to the craps players out there in cyber land. Ahigh I'm not saying that you are trying to pull something over on everybody, just that it's not in a real casino under real conditions of play that everybody is looking at.

Before I go any farther, I hope you realize that this has nothing to do with you and I. It's about how your interpenetrating your data. Everybody is taking it on the face value of what they see on a short video and that does not tell the whole picture.

Quote:

Nevertheless, I'm having to go it alone (without Rick's support) these days. I appreciate Rick's continued interest in what I'm doing but hopefully it's understood that I've moved on and need to go and do things on my own. It's really been about 18 months since I left Rick's forum to start up GoodShooter.com now really. But like I said, I do appreciate the continued interest on Rick's part.

I don't know what support you think you need on your project to prove that someone could control the dice argument. Some researchers need somebody at there side to show them were they are going wrong, so think about me,... as that person!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/5411-has-anyone-ever-seen-a-real-study-on-dice-control/18/




Ahigh

# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Aug05-1245pm.txt
s 6262
a 11`55`32`31`51`51`43`65`62`21`41`41`63`11`55`32`62`63`32`64`62`61`42`21`54`21`21`64`53`64
a 22`44`11`42`52`43`63`51`42`11`11`52`41`41`42`21`64`63`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Aug07-0833pm.txt
s 6262
a 41`63`54`66`63`63`64`41`33`43`64`63`51`52`41`52`42`64`44`32`21`66`11`32`11`22`63`53`43`31
a 21`66`53`53`54`53`65`54`66`65`31`31`52`11`65`22`66`55`43`31`53`44`54`42`64`51`55`21`63`42
a 11`31`21`42`53`41`42`43`42`61`21`64`66`65`52`61`32`62`61`63`63`64`41`65`51`32`53`54`53`62
a 51`62`44`43
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Aug08-1006pm.txt
s 6262
a 64`42`62`21`22`62`54`42`42`32`62`42`51`51`44`62`65`43`65`33`66`51`33`64`62`55`54`43`32`55
a 51`55`22`62`21`64`41`61`11`62`44`51`63`21`64`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Aug13-0931pm.txt
s 6262
a 33`52`51`32`51`66`32`64`43`54`51`21`64`51`51`53`32`44`63`51`41`63`53`66`65`42`41`44`42`42
a 52`21`31`62`21`44`32`66`32`31`52`52`44`44`33`65`53`22`43`22`51`65`54`53`31`51`53`31`51`43
a 65`31`62`54`53`52`54`53`51`21`42`64`63`55`65`53`22`55`41`33`54`63`51`64`32`61`21`42`43`51
a 63`21`53`63`54`63`53`55`53`41
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep01-0207pm.txt
s 6262
a 53`62`32`42`42`53`61`22`66`61`54`22`43`52`54`43`54`52`61`21`51`42`43`62`41`21`41`54`21`44
a 22`31`32`66`31`64`55`55`65`62`33`33`54`51`54`31`66`41`32`42`42`21`21`22`21`42`11`32`31`11
a 51`42`65`21`42`54`41`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep08-0123pm.txt
s 6262
a 43`31`21`55`61`65`51`42`52`32`42`43`33`63`43`21`63`42`61`32`61`44`43`63`32`21`64`44`32`64
a 66`42`52`41`66`31`65`64`33`52`52`42`33`21`22`33`44`21`51`32`41`43`33`31`54`43`55`61`63`51
a 54`53`43`65`66`41`62`43`32`53`21`52`11`54`41`31`41`63`41`51`32`64`51`66`51`63`21`21`21`44
a 31`43`31`64`43`62`53`51`61`41`54`31`55`53`31`63`65`63`32`41`64`31`54`54`53`31`22`43`21`54
a 64`42`61`44`32`61`22`32`33`62`65`52`32`41`66`43`66`42`21`52`54`31`55`65`53`43`63`66`61`65
a 44`65`54`55`22`53`22`63`65`41`51`22`21`61`52`32`62`32`61`66`33`31`66`66`51`52`33`65`51`31
a 52`63`54`65`32`52`65`43`52`42`32`65`54`55`42`32`22`22`41`54`21`31`41`66`21`22`65`61`52`61
a 21`11`32`53`31`22`41`53`55`31`21`53`63`11`41`65`65`54`22`21`53`42`32`42`54`33`31`52`52`53
a 32`52`63`42`53`43`62`11`43`65`65`43`53`32`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep09-0307pm.txt
s 6262
a 41`32`11`44`51`61`44`61`21`66`61`53`31`21`64`44`51`54`63`41`64`52`65`54`43`64`21`43`61`52
a 62`63`32`31`54`42`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep09-0803pm.txt
s 6262
a 51`22`66`51`64`61`55`52`62`42`51`52`51`63`61`41`43`43`41`63`32`54`21`32`64`52`43`32`66`66
a 42`63`51`61`51`54`21`52`42`53`43`64`54`42`31`21`55`32`41`53`42`44`63`65`64`62`52`63`53`32
a 64`44`65`21`44`31`43`62`41`62`31`32`52`55`44`42`51`44`42`41`11`43`52`31`31`63`21`64`52`63
a 43`63`61`33`54`21`54`61`51`44`54`51`61`41`42`53`41`61`54`41`62`32`53`62`22`51`55`22`41`42
a 62`54`54`42`43`52`61`11`64`21`54`63`32`31`61`22`31`33`66`63`42`66`63`53`51`53`42`53`54`22
a 52`61`64`42`61`41`65`32`61`31`53`41`61`54`66`64`11`21`64`31`11`53`52`62`42`62`42`61`32`65
a 54`66`42`33`54`52`53`42`63`43`32`63`66`42`33`66`53`44`11`54`22`43`64`61`52`11`55`62`64`21
a 51`54`43`32`43`53`32`55`32`11`61`33`62`64`65`41`11`51`43`62`32`64`44`62`64`21`61`42`64`22
a 63`54`65`33`41`43`53`31`51`32`33`53`51`11`63`11
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep14-1011pm.txt
s 1236
a 51`63`54`51`54`51`42`11`53`32`55`53`54`52`62`43`31`22`11`62`64`65`44`53`52`64`31`21`31`53
a 63`42`64`51`51`43`66`63`51`11`66`66`62`51`54`51`65`51`21`42`22`54`32`31`52`43`64`64`43`32
a 54`64`64`55`51`33`53`51`52`51`51`53`65`52`63`54`51
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep18-1027pm.txt
s 6262
a 43`51`21`42`41`32`65`61`61`21`63`36`35`14`42`51`36`63`44`34`21`51`24`61`43`41`21`32`33`34
a 13`54`33`53`62`55`64`15`52`31`31`36`21`62`26`15`31`51`35`25`52`61`41`62`61`53`33`54`53`36
a 66`54`21`44`32`45`52`43`54`64`64`12`11`55`16`65`26`64`64`21`64`16`63`53`61`13`53`42`23`52
a 62`43`43`32`66`65`66`21`23`65`43`55`61`21`53`64`65`45`43`32`64`32`56`41`56`64`31`41`66`22
a 36`66`65`35`21`16`43`53`51`33`61`54`43`52`31`55`23`65`41`56`53`55`66`41`52`53`41`21`11`52
a 42`21`43`42`52`32`61`11`11`31`62`51`62`44`22`55`55`22`31`33`44`55`55`21`54`41`62`21`65`63
a 21`23`55`22`41`52`52`21`21`43`42`41`62`11`61`54`22`62`42`53`53`54`31`52
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep23-0629pm.txt
s 4242
a 11`23`16`53`15`22`12`32`26`35`44`13`14`25`45`64`31`31`46`22`34`42`45`14`35`34`46`13`54`32
a 42`46`42`21`46`11`31`53`45`21`26`25`21`65`61`34`31`55`12`15`54`35`16`12`25`24`33`23`16`64
a 44`31`51`31`33`44`54`62`53`56`51`31`15`65`61`16`31`14`36`61`15`52`13`26`51`11`63`12`62`61
a 15`65`24`12`41`31`56`36`35`32`12`26`42`46`43`33`54`24`11`22`25`14`66`44`33`32`62`63`11`61
a 22`41`13`61`24`51`42`63`22`56`52`53`31`42`25`64`56`22`22`31`46`14`44`45`63`45`42`45`62`46
a 65`24`61`61`52`31`11`62`33`51`21`22`63`26`51`11`43`31`56`11`42`51`35`56`61`46`23`26`42`61
a 14`51`32`33`25`12`42`45`61`33`32`21`66`42`56`32`25`24`53`33`23`54`63`65`44`55`22`42`55`14
a 63`65`25`53`44`15`45`42`55`33`13`45`42`43
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Sep23-0858pm.txt
s 4242
a 64`33`53`11`53`41`21`22`53`52`62`54`23`62`62`44`31`53`22`62`54`54`11`66`43`31`42`31`22`42
a 54`55`12`23`52`43`51`63`54`12`51`54`44`54`31`31`44`55`62`51`54`61`51`55`43`52`12`43`53`22
a 53`53`55`11`43`66`61`23`41`54`23`55`51`64`41`42`12`64`64`53`53`23`54`56`31`55`33`41`64`12
a 23`31`66`43`32`45`56`62`31`64`44`12`44`31`42`41`51`54`45`31`65`33`44`11`51`51`23`22`65`31
a 63`54`66`31`23`54`33`41`23
# Rolls
# aaron_sr1_2012-Oct10-0840pm.txt
s 4242
a 66`65`63`65`61`35`64`32`64`35`61`31`12`12`26`14`13`44`56`65`12`56`44`64`61`41`24`35`22`15
a 31`42`23`53`64`11`61`55`51`51`65`45`34`13`46`36`62`46`61`55`46`24`43`26`65`63`42`32`43`63
a 41`53`24`46`54`35`52`44`52`22`22`54`14`44`31`43`32`54`51`66`13`34`63`53`52`36`12`64`54`56
a 42`34`25`31

When you look at your roll data for the 1602 rolls you only made 5 hardways over what you would see in that amount of rolls if everything worked out to the math of the game. For the 1602 rolls you should see 178 hardways, you had 183.

Hard 10 Hard 4 Hard 6 Hard 8
45 51 38 49
For each of the hardways you should see 44.5

I hope that I didn't do the math wrong on this problem, I think that one of the math guys should check it out and see just where Ahigh stands as far as random goes.

Now if you think that you can build a betting strategy around five extra hardways in 1602 rolls of the dice I would like to see it work, what happens if in the next 1602 rolls of the dice you are under that amount of hard ways? You are right about random with your shooting for the hardways, I'm sure one of the math guys that gets a kick out of doing the math can run all your data for the above rolls and tell us right where you stand with your shooting.

Craps is a game of chance, that's how the casinos look at it and all the math guys do to. You can win at craps when the trend of game is in your favor, if you are betting the right way. ( Getting Lucky )
We can trick or brains into seeing something that is not happening, didn't you know that casinos have no losers, just ask the guys wife that goes to the casinos all the time, if their husband is a winner or a loser.

Most losers will never tell someone that they are a loser, they are all breaking even or winning!

At one time I too thought that you could prove that there was such a thing as being a DI, that could win at playing craps with their shooting, it was a cruel, cruel, joke that the great fiction writers are pulling on everybody that thinks of themselves as a so-called DI. When out betting the right way and following the trends of the game you don't stand a chance, unless you are getting lucky!!!!!


Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!

You do good brada ..!

superrick

Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction!

Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...

These are all clickable thumbnails.









Today I converted from a gravity powered thrower to a spring powered thrower.

I'm behind on everything else, and I need a lower powered spring. This spring only needs an inch or two of pull-back to throw all the way across the table.

I actually BROKE some dice testing to see how powerful this thing was. A pip cracked in half and half of it popped out.

Quote: Ahigh

These are all clickable thumbnails.

Looks very interesting, but I can't seem to make the links work.

you're a talented guy, Aaron

Thank you so much for the compliment. This is not my area of expertise as I said in the original post. I'm not great with physically building stuff. But I did install the flat screen myself, the track lighting, and I built the thrower. I also got m lil' bang in the mail. Bare hardware so I have to go to Radio Shack and what/not to figure out the power supply and make a project box for it.

Lil' Bang sound trigger

This basically triggers a still camera to take a photo at the moment of impact of the dice initially hitting the felt.

It's good timing as the details of what the dice look like when they hit the felt is really important for tuning a shot (mechanical or otherwise).

Quote: odiousgambit

you're a talented guy, Aaron

And committed! (Just hopefully not to a mental institution!) I can't wait to see the machine in action!!!!!!

This is great Ahigh cant wait to see more.

Damn, that machine looks just like what they did my heart surgery with !!

Glad to see you're still around and kicking. Thanks for the comments. Since I changed to spring loaded, it's not giving me as good of results as the weight-powered version.

But the weight powered version was snapping rods from the extreme deceleration leveraged at the 4-way cross pipe. So that wasn't a good long term solution anyway.

I need to devise a mechanism to hold and release the dice instead of rapidly decelerating the launcher.

I'm going to need some design time on that, but the system is modular and I screw on/off various dice-holding mechs as I come up with approaches.

This is the long-term launch power (spring) until/unless I determine that weight is the only way to get accuracy.

This is the very first video and is completely unedited. I make absolutely no claims that this proves anything (I am going to have to say this more and more as people seem to infer that I am making claims of proof).

This is merely a demonstration of the latest spring loaded thrower. There are many many improvements that I have not yet even begun to make, but I wanted to demonstrate the thrower in action from a reasonable and legal throw position and hitting the back wall and so forth and so on.

http://youtu.be/Np2QBa4Py24



Please understand this is just where I am right now, and not yet a final version. Thanks in advance for any comments.

I give you credit for trying, but I think you are causing your argument more harm than good.

You want to prove "dice control" and without a device that can do a better job of controling the dice, you are hurting your position. You really need something that will mimic what is considered to be a controlled throw -- not just some device that hurls two dice using a particular set.

You need a controlled throw to a particular point on the table with whatever backspin is necessary to limit the bounce, and you need to exert the appropriate pressure to keep the dice so that they hit a particular flat section of the back wall, and keep the dice on axis.

Your device just shoots two dice onto the table.

I would suggest this experiment: Using the same set, let us know how many 7s are rolled after 100 throws by the machine, and then how many 7s are rolled by you using a "controlled throw."

If the machine and you have about the same result, then continue your experiments with the machine that you are building. But I think you can do a better job than what your machine is doing to avoid a 7. At least, you should be able to if you really believe you have a skill as dice controller.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I give you credit for trying, but I think you are causing your argument more harm than good.

You want to prove "dice control" and without a device that can do a better job of controling the dice, you are hurting your position. You really need something that will mimic what is considered to be a controlled throw -- not just some device that hurls two dice using a particular set.

You need a controlled throw to a particular point on the table with whatever backspin is necessary to limit the bounce, and you need to exert the appropriate pressure to keep the dice so that they hit a particular flat section of the back wall, and keep the dice on axis.

Your device just shoots two dice onto the table.

I would suggest this experiment: Using the same set, let us know how many 7s are rolled after 100 throws by the machine, and then how many 7s are rolled by you using a "controlled throw."

If the machine and you have about the same result, then continue your experiments with the machine that you are building. But I think you can do a better job than what your machine is doing to avoid a 7. At least, you should be able to if you really believe you have a skill as dice controller.

Thanks.

I'm a little surprised the only feedback I got is credit for "trying." What a tough audience!

I'd make a mechanism to cock the device in exactly the same position each time, with some sort of trigger to launch. You shouldn't rely on your hands at all -- far too much variability there.

Also, you're using that right-angled piece of metal to hold the dice which makes for a good catapult-style basket, but I don't think you'll be able to get your desired backspin with that mechanism. I think you'll need to use a pincers-style dice holder mounted on the end of a spring so at the end of the throw, the bottom "finger" releases first, the spring flexes forward, and you get a wrist-like release.

If I had the time, I'd do the whole thing with servos (one for the arm, one for the wrist, one for the pincers) rather than springs or counterweights, but I admire the effort and I hope it leads to a quality result.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm a little surprised the only feedback I got is credit for "trying." What a tough audience!

Hey, that's more than Noah got while building the ARC !

I think its getting somewhere. I would love to see some data once you get going. Simple would be the way to go first before you start trying to add spin to your device.

Once you have a controlled start to the throw, I would go ahead and start mapping the results, and see what you get.

I honestly think you'd be better doing a series of hypothesis-test cycles with your machines and own throws.

Years back, I did some controlled drops by dropping the dice, straight down from 12" with the same side of the dice up each time that they were dropped.
The distribution of the numbers hit was very close to what was expected - random.

If you are testing the machine, then test the number that appears up on each cube. Do NOT add the totals of both dice. This will make it much easier to calculate the chi square and standard deviation, and it will reduce the numbers of trials required because it limits the degrees of freedom. Be sure to replace the dice every 100 throws. The dice damage quickly, especially if you are slamming the same face into the table with each toss. If you can alternate the face up each trial, then you will only need to replace the cubes every 500 throws. Use only new dice. Do not use voided dice, unless you can determine that the voiding of the dice has not biased the dice in anyway. Used dice tend to have dull and damaged corners which may help create the illusion that the machine can control the dice. If you are using second hand dice, then replace them very frequently. Look for sharp corners. Inspect the dice regularly.

If you need an Excel spreadsheet to calculate the data for you, then I have exactly what you need.
If you plan on alternating the face up with each throw, then I have a spreadsheet for this procedure as well.

In short, I suspect the machine will produce only random results based on my past experience, but I look forward to seeing your results.

-Keyser

In fact, doing tests to show that the throw -is- random right now will show the scientific rigour in the method to later show bias once you add in new tweaks which you hypothesize will add elements of control.

Quote: thecesspit

In fact, doing tests to show that the throw -is- random right now will show the scientific rigour in the method to later show bias once you add in new tweaks which you hypothesize will add elements of control.

You would do better trying to hypnotize the pit crew.

I always record the outcome of both dice. By the time I get around to collecting data, there will be no shortage of data. I'm absolutely planning to over engineer the data collection process as you can't have too much data.

Dose the acronym GIGO ring a bell ? just asking. LOL

Do NOT add the dice together to create a point value. This would be a big mistake and it will wash out the results.

Best......Thread......Ever.

Here's the device I just finished putting into a project enclosure. Click on the image and you can learn more about the guy who designed this DIY board and how it works.



Basically this is a microphone that has a settable delay and sensitivity for triggering a photo when it hears a sound. This lets me gather high resolution still images of dice touchdowns that are normalized in the time-domain to some number of milliseconds following a sound trigger. The trick is going to be setting the sensitivity low enough to ignore the launch but hear the landing for the mechanical launcher.

Quote: Keyser

Be sure to replace the dice every 100 throws. The dice damage quickly, especially if you are slamming the same face into the table with each toss. If you can alternate the face up each trial, then you will only need to replace the cubes every 500 throws. Use only new dice. Do not use voided dice, unless you can determine that the voiding of the dice has not biased the dice in anyway. Used dice tend to have dull and damaged corners which may help create the illusion that the machine can control the dice. If you are using second hand dice, then replace them very frequently. Look for sharp corners. Inspect the dice regularly.

In short, I suspect the machine will produce only random results based on my past experience, but I look forward to seeing your results.

-Keyser

I have three CASES of unopened uncancelled Paulson dice. You should see some of the dice I absolutely DESTROYED testing how strong the launcher is. Pips cracked and half the pip came out!

That is a very nice craps set up you have Ahigh. It would be fun just to play at your place.

Here's an image from my sound-trigger. Unfortunately the delay for my particular camera is such that by the time the shutter is released, the dice are on the wall. This was a throw I made by hand and the sound trigger was the dice hitting the felt.



I'm still experimenting with various settings to try to get some interesting visual shots, but I'm going to have to use some kind of a laser curtain trigger to get a good enough advance notice to time the moment the dice are hitting the felt. It's a little disappointing, but I knew this already as I researched the latency for my camera from external trigger until the exposure began.

Quote: RaleighCraps

That is a very nice craps set up you have Ahigh. It would be fun just to play at your place.

We are actually having a private play session here in a few days. Thanks for the compliment, and I am definitely proud of my setup.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm a little surprised the only feedback I got is credit for "trying." What a tough audience!

I didn't see the video until now. Nice contraption!! My suggestion to add "backspin" is to use a somewhat weaker spring and a stop of some kind. In the video, you don't show the device as it is "throwing" the dice so I can't see if there's a stop to the forward motion of the cradle although it sounds like it.

More swing length will give the dice more spin or angular momentum (if that's even desired). A stop will launch the dice at the same spot in the swing every single time.

High praises for what you're doing, I like it a lot. I wish I had the sKiLlLz0rZ to build one myself.

Finally after a bunch of wrestling with the camera and reading manuals I figured out to get my shutter speed to 1/400th of a second without needing the flash. There's an ISO setting in the main menu to simulate using faster speed films, and on ISO 100, you just need tons of light to get a short shutter speed. The above shot is on ISO 2000 setting. A little weird and old-school, but I had a photography class so I guess I understand why this would make sense for a photographer, but for me I just thought I needed brighter lights when I set the shutter speed faster and it said "not enough light" I thought I didn't have enough light. Literally. LOL.

It does explain the extreme depth of field I've been getting from my photos (on ISO 100, it opens the aperture up really big) so I learned the camera is made to be treated like a real 35mm film camera basically.

I still have the delay issue being a little bit big, but it's progress. The progress is the shutter speed is fast enough to figure out what faces are where and slow enough to determine the velocities and angular velocities from the blur.

Thanks to everyone for the positive comments. I am really just getting started and I won't be gathering actual data for a while. Just tuning everything up. I don't want to start recording data until I have all my stuff tuned up right so I can capture as much data as possible and get the best results possible.

I also have a 720p120 GoPro Hero3 on order, but that won't be here until December.

But putting all this data collection together and making a massive database of video, stills, data, and charts of strategies, and everything else together is going to be quite an orchestra.

It's nice to get some positive comments, and I appreciate them so much. I already know plenty of people think that this is "garbage" but it sure is nice to get some people who appreciate the work I'm doing. Thanks so much.

Good Work, Ahigh.

Ahigh, I have to say, I am extremely skeptical that dice control is possible, but, either way, what you have done is pretty damned cool and I am impressed.

Thanks for the positive comments. I really do appreciate them. I've been reading everyone's suggestions, so stay tuned. I really only have a lot of time to do this on the weekend so it will probably be Sunday night again before there is more stuff to show.

" Thanks for the positive comments. I really do appreciate them." Well, put me down for a compliment. I rarely give them, but I admire that you have no reverse gear. Damn the naysayers, full speed ahead !

Getting closer to the weekend. No firm plans for what will happen this weekend. Maybe working towards a better strobing system to allow for a longer shutter exposure on the camera and strobe the light source based on the sound trigger instead of the camera shutter. Maybe work on the release mechanism for better control. Not sure yet.

Well I'm up really early this morning. The store where I get my stuff for the thrower is only open for a few hours today (8am until noon or 1pm). So I have two hours to plan and then just four hours to have opportunity to buy stuff. So I'm thinking about a release mechanism.

Here's a link to their online site if anybody wants to help me pick out stuff for the release mechanism and suggest ideas. I don't have a lot of time to do this, so I appreciate ideas.

http://www.doitbest.com/main.aspx?memberid=0463&associate=true

A lot of what I bought up until this point was from the plumbing section

http://www.doitbest.com/Plumbing.dib

But I think I'm at the trickier stage. It's easy to come up with a working design, but coming up with something that's easy to put together and have it work with consistent results is harder.

My current list of stuff to buy:

(1) Some various strength springs (the one I have is too powerful) - they have many of the same length with various strengths.
(2) An extra 1/8" pipe (these had been bending at the major stress point and I think I fixed the design flaw, but just in case I need a spare after using)
(3) Some very small springs of assorted sizes for a release mechanism to impart spin at the end of the throw

I'm thinking that some kind of low-power spring mechanism to hold the dice on a rotation point with some small ball bearings and machine screws will work. The spring mechanism I would like to hold each die independently or together based on what I want at the time, but I may start with only holding them together to make it simpler.

So effectively one (or two) spring(s) would clasp the two dice together and another spring would impart the spin after being triggered at the release trigger location of the main arm or at the moment of release of the entire system. The movement that imparts the spin would cause the mechanism hold the two dice together to come into contact with a wedge that would as consistently as possible simultaneously open up the clasp holding the dice together and slow the mechanism down. The goal is for consistency in conjunction with adjustment for the spring stiffness and release position to tune the amount of spin but in a consistently reproducible way.

The other idea would be to only use one (or two) small spring(s) to clasp the dice together and use the momentum from the main arm's rotation against a stop to transfer energy into imparting a spin and releasing the dice more simultaneously at the based on a selected release position. Either way, there needs to be something to trigger the spin whether it is initiated manually by letting go of the entire system or by hitting some kind of stop that transfers energy to a smaller system immediately before launch.

I think that I will get more consistency by setting both the main arm and the spin arm in motion at the same time -- effectively simulating a simultaneous wrist and arm motion that begin moving at the time of release. It's just a matter of not being sure of the consistency of the spin (in one case) versus the consistency of the release position (in the other).

To correlate the two together, there's also the idea to create a gear-based system that links the hold and rotation of the dice with the position of the main arm. This would leverage the mass of the larger throwing device through gearing to get a more consistent result. But bringing gears into the overall system may be complicated.

That's a lot of complexity. For your proof of concept, I'd keep it as simple as possible. You do have to address the vagaries in the starting point and the release point though. You can't just eyeball it. It has to be the same every single time.

Quote: s2dbaker

That's a lot of complexity. For your proof of concept, I'd keep it as simple as possible. You do have to address the vagaries in the starting point and the release point though. You can't just eyeball it. It has to be the same every single time.

Yeah, I think I may have some simpler solutions.

Complexity definitely reduces the determinism I'm seeking.

How about the dice holder on an axial swivel, that is slightly held back with a light spring.

the main arm hits a positive stop.
The dice holder then starts its forward motion against the resistance of the light spring.
finally, the dice holder hits a positive stop, which allows the dice to exit the holder.


If the dice were held from the top, with a slight L holding the bottom front edge of the dice, the dice would rotate around that L edge, as they left the holder.

Side view
<-- direction of throw
o <-- pivot point
|
|_dice

I would expect the release point of the L bracket would be quite high, probably above parallel, since the dice will have to travel a bit downward to rotate around that edge. A soft stretchy spring would probably be needed.

I thought of this, and the problem that I foresaw was that the obstruction in front of the dice's intended travel would alter the trajectory.

One other thing that I also thought of was to have a weighted thing that came up and knocked the bottom front portion of the dice at release using inertia to actuate, but the problem with that is that I am not thrilled about having elastic collisions with the dice immediately before release. I want something smooth.

So maybe covering three sides of the dice during the arc of the pitch, and then lifting one of the three sides away using a leveraged see-saw weight.

I know this makes no sense. I would have to draw a picture. I have about 30 more minutes before I go to the store. But the consistency issue I have right now is that at the time of the release, the die slide off one surface and just "leaves" the other surface.

It really needs to "leave" two surfaces equally. This means a third surface needs to be "pulled away."

This doesn't have anything to do with spin yet, but with three surfaces holding the die, I can think about spin later if I can get this right.

I think I said this before, but what I think I've done so far is the easier half even though the bulk of the material needed is done (the big stuff) the small stuff is going to be harder to do properly with the correct amount of precision and controls.

I might just go play today. I've been giving up all my play time. I did well in the stock market this week, and it's just got me itching to go play! They're open until noon at least so I think I'll go to the Silverton until 10:00. I'll take my iPad and check to see if anybody has ideas before I head to McFaddenDale's.

Got my stuff. Everything went okay. But not as obvious what I'm going to be doing today.

SOOPOO is coming by on Thursday to check out what I have so far. Not sure what we're going to be doing, but I took a whole day off work so there would be no time pressures, and he said he wants to see the machine.

Quote: Ahigh

SOOPOO is coming by on Thursday to check out what I have so far. Not sure what we're going to be doing, but I took a whole day off work so there would be no time pressures, and he said he wants to see the machine.

Looking forward to it! I also plan on taking it to a casino, putting it on the table, while Ahigh is filming the faces of the crew...... (Not really)....

If anybody knows a cameraman that works on the cheap, I need one Thursday to get everything on film that I can get for our brief experiment. Ideally a forum member that can reasonably operate a video camera and has an interest would be ideal, but I have three e-mails out to potential camera people so far, but too soon to hear back yet.

So far I have one camera man lined up for $250 that includes 4 hours of work who's pretty experienced. SOOPOO, do you want to have a cameraman for our get together?