Craps rules suck? What does he/she mean?
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhat I really hate about craps is that they don't allow a Mulligan. (LOL)
From Futurama:
Bender: My cheating unit malfunctioned. I want a do-over.
Dealer: Sorry. House limit is two do-overs.
Or words to that effect.
-Less than 3-4-5 odds (I think Bovada, e.g., is full double) - needs no explanation.
-House rules concerning the dice might irk a setter.
5x? Okay, it ain't generous but its okay and certainly suits most players. 2x? Stingy. I think its 2x at Southpoint and on many cruise ships.
It always surprises me that at a $5 table, someone would bet a pass line bet of $25 with no odds.
Quote: JuyemuraSeriously though, even at 3x4x5x odds, I see a lot of people betting far less then that behind their pass line bet.
It always surprises me that at a $5 table, someone would bet a pass line bet of $25 with no odds.
You see this flat betting quite often with DP people. I can understand the mindset, but when a 7/11 hits I can't help but smirk.
Don't Pass. Most people bet the Pass Line in hopes that the dice will win; a few evil sods with blackened souls take the ever so slightly better bet of Don't Pass in the hopes that the dice will lose.Quote: 24Bingo...DP?
Quote: DeMangoIf you have to prepay the vig on a buy the rules suck. If the 12 pays double that rule sucks. Anything less than 20X odds is an insult. If the breakage isn't at $35 on a buy, it's not ideal.
Never seen it where you don't prepay the vig buying the 4/10 if that what you mean?
I don't bet the field, perhaps that what the OP meant by the rules that suck.
People will notice that most players aren't taking 20X odds or even 100X. Most are quite happy with double odds even these days. As someone posted, on cruise ships(extended, not gambling ships) and even in Aruba, the Dominican Republic, and some other island(dated experiences) it was single odds.
Quote: FleaStiffDon't Pass. Most people bet the Pass Line in hopes that the dice will win; a few evil sods with blackened souls take the ever so slightly better bet of Don't Pass in the hopes that the dice will lose.
They call them the "house" as well. The few times I stuck with the Don't Pass I felt like I was hated and worse. I may have won a little money but felt bad doing it. The one exception was the Showboat in Atlantic City where I felt like the casino had cheated a friend of mine by not giving him additional credit(he had lost $20,000.usd on credit and wanted another $10,000.usd to get his money back and they denied it.). I said "lets show these fuckers a thing or two" and we proceeded to play the don't and won about $10,000.usd each just prior to our getting into a limo back to the airport and home. I guess they still beat him out of 10K but I was a winner! and they learned a lesson!!!
Quote: NokTangNever seen it where you don't prepay the vig buying the 4/10 if that what you mean?
I don't know of any casinos that stll ask for the vig up front when you place buy bets on the 4 and 10? Instead you pay the vig only on a win. Are there casinos that still charge the vig upfront?
Quote: AlanMendelsonI don't know of any casinos that stll ask for the vig up front when you place buy bets on the 4 and 10? Instead you pay the vig only on a win. Are there casinos that still charge the vig upfront?
Hi. I've been "out of action" for a number of years, and try to make that clear when I post. You may be correct. I always paid $1.usd with a $25usd bet on the 4/10 to win $50.usd up front. It wasn't charged, it was I thought how "smart" players did it but I guess not? It was called "buy the four/ten". Please update me, thanks.
1. 10x odds;
2. Field pays triple on 12, double on 2;
3. On buy 4/10, Vig only after a win;
4. Put bets to box numbers, (except a few Station properties);
5. prop bets: 3 & 11 pay 16 for 1, 2 & 12 pay 31 for 1.
Strip casinos are generally less, 5x odds, field 2 & 12 are double, and props ae 15/30 for 1.
The house sets the rules; taking the position of "well, anything LESS than such-and-such being offered to me for my presence is an insult, and I am outraged..." is a non-starter from the pit's Point of View.
The house sets the game rules to want the market calls for, and what is worthwhile for them to offer in the first place. Don't like it, play somewhere else; if business slows too much for them, they'll bang it back up more in the players' favor.
Quote: DeMangoGo to Vegas and tell the dealer you want to buy the 5 & 9 for $30@. Get the deer in the headlight look. Priceless.
Dealer tells you: "No bet, sir. You may place the 5 & 9 for $30 each to pay $42, - but no buys on the 5 & 9. Sorry, sir. " Get the deer in the headlight look. Worthless.
Quote: PaigowdanA lot of local casinos (Boyd, Stations) - non-Strip I mean, are generous, and generally have:
1. 10x odds;
2. Field pays triple on 12, double on 2;
3. On buy 4/10, Vig only after a win;
4. Put bets to box numbers, (except a few Station properties);
5. prop bets: 3 & 11 pay 16 for 1, 2 & 12 pay 31 for 1.
Strip casinos are generally less, 5x odds, field 2 & 12 are double, and props ae 15/30 for 1.
I'm pretty sure that Caesars has the same rules you listed above for the off strip properties, pays the same as the pays you listed, Caesars also allows put bets, but limits odds to 3, 4, 5. Of course 3, 4, 5 was standardized by Jimmy Wike at Caesars to speed up the game and make it easier for dealers.
--vig is paid upfront on "buy" bets. You buy the 4 for $26 (with vig), end up with the $49 to keep it up when you win.
--"Field" bet pays double on 2 and 12
They are very generous with their odds (offering 20x to 100x) but they don't have as good of rules as I've seen in Mississippi. There is one casino there that offered the buy, vig only on the win, and you don't pay the vig if you take the bet down when it wins. Paying the vig upfront changes the odds a good bit if I remember correctly.
That is best for the player.Quote: RonCThey are very generous with their odds (offering 20x to 100x)
Quote: FleaStiffThat is best for the player.
I think 20x to 100x odds are great BUT I like to bet the $25 buy on the 4 and/or 10, so the vig being paid upfront is a negative rule to me. Also, I don't have enough bankroll to swing 20x to 100x odds, so 10x odds works for me but I like higher odds for the players who have the kind of bankroll needed to play at those levels.
I KNOW what the "best bets" are, thanks to this site. I also KNOW that the dice are random. When the random nature of the dice falls on a 4 or 10 more than the averages would dictate, it sure feels good collecting green chips!!
Frankly, I don't think the "average craps player" even understands what the concept of 100x odds means?
I was at Casino Royale on the Strip once with a high roller friend of mine who did bet 100x odds. I was watching the rest of the table and for the most part it was single odds or NO odds. (I wasn't betting, just watching. This is the same guy, by the way, who dropped $25K in short order.)
At Caesars I usually see no odds or single odds. Sometimes dealers have to remind the players when the pass line bet is $25 to put an extra dollar or $5 when they make a 1x odds bet on the 5 and 9.
I know that "odds" is a big issue for discussion on craps forums, but when you come down to it, isn't it just an "academic" discussion?
Quote: DeMango
Go to Vegas and tell the dealer you want to buy the 5 & 9 for $30@. Get the deer in the headlight look. Priceless.Quote: PaigowdanDealer tells you: "No bet, sir. You may place the 5 & 9 for $30 each to pay $42, - but no buys on the 5 & 9. Sorry, sir. " Get the deer in the headlight look. Worthless.
Tell a dealer in Tunica or Biloxi that you want to Place the 5 and 9 for $30 each, and when a 5 or 9 rolls, they will pay you $44.
"Excuse me dealer, but you overpaid me. I should have only received $42."
"No sir. Anything over $20 is an automatic buy bet on the 4,5,9,10. Your $30 bet is a buy, and it paid $45 to win, but we had to charge you a $1 vig."
Quote: AlanMendelson
I know that "odds" is a big issue for discussion on craps forums, but when you come down to it, isn't it just an "academic" discussion?
You make a good point based on your live and life experiences. However, back in the "days" some decade ago? when Binions Horseshoe offered 100x odds on $1.usd bets there were a lot of people taking 10X or more. I think the min wager is what culls out most players and as you say makes all the talk academic. It's still fun. Since finding this forum I feel like I'm playing without any chance of losing any money, only time. Learning new things and up to date information makes me feel like I'm winning something. I'm off to Singapore or Macau very very soon.
Quote: NokTangI think the min wager is what culls out most players and as you say makes all the talk academic.
Yes it does.
A low-roller, me for instance, will make a 2-3X odds bet on a $5 table regularly, but maybe not more. Perhaps on a "hot" roll I'll go as high as 5X, but then again perhaps not. It depends on many things, like time of day, money lost/won thus far, time during the trip, etc etc. But get me a $3 table, and I'll bet 4-5X, and perhaps more, where allowed, on the 6 and 8 (playing pass, anturally).
Quote:It's still fun.
Hell, yes!
Quote: JuyemuraIt always surprises me that at a $5 table, someone would bet a pass line bet of $25 with no odds.
A lot of casinos don't comp on odds bets. So, if your rating is a major reason you're playing, that might be the best way to play.
When you first start playing, you get some satisfaction with the pass line bet. You put on your $5 and as the bet gets resolved, you win or lose the $5. A bet might be resolved every couple of minutes, which, at .07 EV per resolution, is a damned cheap way to spend your time at a casino.
But then you get bored. You see people winning on the odds, the 6-8, the buy bets, and most of all, you see the 30-1 payouts and 9-1 payouts on the hardways and horn bets, the sucker bets in the middle.
So, as you become more experienced in craps, you bet the odds bet, because it's free. Not a bad way to spend your time, and you get that endorphin rush as you get paid $35 every time a point hits. But what do you do with the bets in between? Well, there's the 6 and 8, the next best bets on the table at 1.52%. So, you put $6 on each of these, along with your pass line and odds, so instead of betting $5/hand, you're now up to $17, and your bet is being resolved on about 40% of all throws. Then there's the come bets.
Still, that isn't good enough. You still see the sucker bets winning. You see the 5 and 9 up there, and they're hitting. So, you put money on the 5 and 9 too, now having $27 out there (plus their odds). And then a few craps come out and you're sitting there waiting as idiots at the other end of the table who just bet the middle end up getting rich. You think in your mind "suckers" but wish that you had placed that winning bet yourself.
Next thing you know, a couple of years later, your smart play of just betting the pass line and the odds has immatured you into a sucker bet player. You bet the pass, sure, but how about a horn-hi-aces for good measure? Yeah, bet the six and eight, but place a hardways on the 4 and 10 while I'm at it. Wait, I just saw the two yos in a row? Bet the Yo!
That's the danger of craps. It turns most players into gambling addicts. I stopped playing craps about 8 months ago because my betting was just stupid.
Quote: boymimboCraps is a game that's dangerous. ...
Next thing you know, a couple of years later, your smart play of just betting the pass line and the odds has immatured you into a sucker bet player. You bet the pass, sure, but how about a horn-hi-aces for good measure? Yeah, bet the six and eight, but place a hardways on the 4 and 10 while I'm at it. Wait, I just saw the two yos in a row? Bet the Yo!
That's the danger of craps. It turns most players into gambling addicts. I stopped playing craps about 8 months ago because my betting was just stupid.
That was a pretty good, and fairly accurate, description boymimbo. Which is the reason why I had made the comment about the craps rules sucking at some casinos.
I have followed your same progression to immaturity, except apparently I have had stronger fortitude in resisting the horn bet area, and for the most part, the hardways. I have never made a bet in the horn area. The >11% HE keeps me away. I confess to having gotten suckered into making the C/E bet (to cover my Come Out roll PassLine bet), but for only part of 1 session. Sure, it felt good to get paid on that Come Out craps, but it was very easy to see, I was spending way more than I would ever get back, so I ash canned that play.
I have decided Come Out craps are an unavoidable hazard, and if they happen, they happen. No need to try and protect myself from them.
The horn bets are all covered in the Field bet, and if I get a table with a 3x (12), the Field bet is a 2.76% HE, not great, but not horrible for an occasional bet. While I don't get the big 15:1 or 30:1 payoff, I get the 4,9,10 numbers in addition to all the horn numbers.
Quote: boymimboCraps is a game that's dangerous.
When you first start playing, you get some satisfaction with the pass line bet. You put on your $5 and as the bet gets resolved, you win or lose the $5. A bet might be resolved every couple of minutes, which, at .07 EV per resolution, is a damned cheap way to spend your time at a casino.
But then you get bored. You see people winning on the odds, the 6-8, the buy bets, and most of all, you see the 30-1 payouts and 9-1 payouts on the hardways and horn bets, the sucker bets in the middle.
So, as you become more experienced in craps, you bet the odds bet, because it's free. Not a bad way to spend your time, and you get that endorphin rush as you get paid $35 every time a point hits. But what do you do with the bets in between? Well, there's the 6 and 8, the next best bets on the table at 1.52%. So, you put $6 on each of these, along with your pass line and odds, so instead of betting $5/hand, you're now up to $17, and your bet is being resolved on about 40% of all throws. Then there's the come bets.
Still, that isn't good enough. You still see the sucker bets winning. You see the 5 and 9 up there, and they're hitting. So, you put money on the 5 and 9 too, now having $27 out there (plus their odds). And then a few craps come out and you're sitting there waiting as idiots at the other end of the table who just bet the middle end up getting rich. You think in your mind "suckers" but wish that you had placed that winning bet yourself.
Next thing you know, a couple of years later, your smart play of just betting the pass line and the odds has immatured you into a sucker bet player. You bet the pass, sure, but how about a horn-hi-aces for good measure? Yeah, bet the six and eight, but place a hardways on the 4 and 10 while I'm at it. Wait, I just saw the two yos in a row? Bet the Yo!
GOLD!!!
Quote: boymimboCraps is a game that's dangerous.
Probably becasue it derives from Hazzard? :)
Quote:But then you get bored. You see people winning on the odds, the 6-8, the buy bets, and most of all, you see the 30-1 payouts and 9-1 payouts on the hardways and horn bets, the sucker bets in the middle.
I must admit to some of that. In particualr placing the 6 and 8 on the do, and laying the 4 and 10 on the don't. I'm trying to break off that habit, for the sake of my poor bankroll if nothing else. But I will keep trying the dealer tip with a two-way hard way now and then. I think the awful house edge is made up by the goodwill obtained from the crew.
Of course, when you stick to pass/come bets with a limit of, say, three bets and odds all told, and the shooter keeps hitting numbers you've no stake in, well, that can shake your determination to stick to sensible bets.
Hopefully the secret police did not read this.
Quote: boymimbo
That's the danger of craps. It turns most players into gambling addicts. I stopped playing craps about 8 months ago because my betting was just stupid.
You continue to remind me of some decade ago at Binions Horseshoe where you would see retired guys playing simple $1.usd bets all day long on the pass/don't pass, day after day. It was just how they spent their day. No other bets, sometimes odds but not always. A setting which it seems has gone away. It wasn't so much about winning or losing, but how to spend ones time. Strange how I can relate as I near retirement myself.
