Help me understand: Betting Pass line and Don't Pass together
If I bet both, I'm almost immune to any loss on initial Come Out rolls. Twelve is a push, so there's that. But I'm really more interested in betting either for or against a point with maximum odds. Betting both ways allows me to take odds on the more favorable 6 and 8 points, and to lay odds on the pretty unlikely rest of the points. Say the Come Out is 6. I take full odds on my pass line bet and keep Come bets going. If the seven out is immediate, I have the Come bet and the Don't Pass defraying that. If I get on the 8, I'll take the max odds on that and keep Come bets cycling. If the point is anything other than 6 or 8, I just lay odds and await the seven out to get paid. Something must be wrong with this but I don't understand the flaw in my thinking. It seems that 6 and 8 are worth playing, and betting both ways on the Pass line protects from those obnoxious shooters who throw 7, 3, 11, 12, 2, 7 types of sequences. I'm not an expert on this game so I'd like to hear what the voice of experience has to say on my ideas.
By the way, you should be able to remove your don't pass bet after the come out roll, at most casinos. Doing so, would make sense if you are putting odds behind your line bet.
On the other hand, you could just play at a casino that accepts "put" bets, and simply bet any number with odds at your whim.
A 12 is a push for the don't and a loss for the pass on the come out roll.Quote: 4andaKicker
If I bet both, I'm almost immune to any loss on initial Come Out rolls. Twelve is a push, so there's that.
You can never win on the come out roll, only lose if a point is not established and the 12 rolls.
This thread has more on the do/don't
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/5715-ridiculous-craps-system/
You would have to run a simulation on your idea, then compare it to just betting one side.
You will then see exactly the results of all your actions and what system of play is better than the other.
I can give you a clue as to what system works best.
stay with one side and do the odds :)
Quote: AlanI don't think removing your don't pass bet after the come out roll is good advice. Sure most casino's will let you do so, since once your don't bet travels it is at an advantage to win.
Of course, it is generally not a good idea to remove a don't pass/come bet once it is up. However, the OP indicated that he/she bets max odds on 6 or 8 line bet, so, in such a case, why not remove the opposing don't bet?
Quote: 4andaKickerI know the Wizard says the best strategy is to just bet Don't Pass and maximum odds. Simple. But I get murdered doing that (in practice anyway). Part of my thinking is that total dependency on people always missing points doesn't seem to work out any better than betting the light side. I think it is to my advantage to have money on 6 & 8 because that gives you ten winning rolls vs six losers. You can't get that situation just betting the dark side and inevitably lose plenty as points of six and eight are made. Maybe I just don't get it.
I think one thing you're "not getting" is that the odds bets do not carry any advantage for the house, or for you, regardless of the point. If the point is a 6, you put max odds behind the pass line bet, since the 6 is more likely than the 5/9 or 4/10. Sure, but it's still less likely than the 7, which is why you win more than you bet (6-5 for the odds). In the end, it's a $0 expected value bet, so while it's increasing your variance (which is the best way to win short-term in a negative expectation game), it's not affecting your overall expected loss.
Same with the Don't side. When the point is anything except a 6/8, you lay the max odds against the "relatively unlikely" point. Sure it's unlikely, that's why you have to bet more than you win!
In the long run, you will lose money on the come-out 12 and once the point is established, your base pass line/don't pass line bets will cancel each other out. The odds bets will never make you or lose you money in the long run.
Craps is a negative expectation game. You will lose money in the long run, if you play long enough*. So play in a fashion that you enjoy. If you enjoy this way, more power to you! Enjoy some free drinks on the house (hopefully allowed in your gambling jurisdiction), have fun, enjoy the wins and view the losses as paying for the entertainment.
*I feel somewhat disingenuous saying this since I have a lifetime win at craps. However, I've been lucky and haven't played that much in the grand scheme of things. If I keep playing for the rest of my life, I'm sure I'll end up in the red eventually.
Quote: AlanBecause even if the point is a 6 or 8 and you're on the don't and the do, the best bet would probably be to bet max. odds on the don't side(sure you have to bet more than you win-that's the way it is) because you're still at an advantage to win on the don't-not the do.
Actually, since the odds payoff is always true odds, one probably can't claim that a certain number, do or don't, is the "best" bet.
On the other hand, having a don't pass/come flat bet up after the point is established is definitely advantageous.
The thing is, the OP specified the condition that he/she always adds max odds on 6/8 line/come bets, so it doesn't really make sense to keep the opposing don't flat bet, and it makes even less sense to add max odds to that don't bet.
Quote: AlanIf the OP has a love affair with the 6/8 place 'em and avoid the come out.
Or make "put" bets, where allowed.
He was laying Odds on the Dont's, they zero out, so I'm not factoring them.
His strategy was basically to bet $20 the Wrong Way, but hedge with $5 on, "Any Seven."
Let's check this out for the come out!!!
Come Out Roll:
Snake Eyes: 1/36 Win $15: EV $0.42
Three: 2/36 Win $15: EV $0.83
Four/Five/Six/Eight/Nine/Ten: 24/36 Lose $5 (at that point): EV: -$3.33
Seven: 6/36 * 0 = $0.00
Yo-'Leven: 2/36 Lose $25: -$1.39
Twelve: 1/36 Lose $5: -$0.14
Total EV of CO: -$3.61
Come Out Roll-DP Only
Snake Eyes: 1/36 Win $20: EV $0.56
Three: 2/36 Win $20: EV $1.11
Seven: 6/36 Lose $20: EV -$3.33
Yo-'Leven: 2/36 Lose $20: -$1.11
Twelve: 1/36 $0.00 = $0.00
Total EV of CO: -$2.77
Total EV of CO if DP Bet = $25
-$2.77/4 * 5 = -$3.46
That's one Hell of a way to hedge against that seven!!!
Quote: CrapsForeverMy new "home" Casino allows Put Bets and has up to 100X odds. I have never used a Put Bet before. Can someone please help explain to me the advantage of using Put Bets with Odds as opposed to Place/Come Bets with Odds?
Put bet is equivalent to 3-4-5x on place bets. If commission is paid on the win only on the 4/10, then you need to have at least 20x odds for a better put bet.
If the casino offers 100x odds, you should put on anything over 5x on the 6/8, and 4x on the 9/5.
Come Out roll is a 6 yippee I put 5X odds on my pass line bet
Seven Out adios muchachos
If I had placed the 8 that's just so much more that get's flushed in a heartbeat.
But...if I make a Come bet, that combined with my Don't Pass defrays some of that damage and I never take the hit for the instaseven rollers.
Now, the worst case I see is they roll 8 on the second roll and of course I take max odds on that and throw out another Come bet.
The Seven Out now is quite costly, but I am more likely to get at least one payout before the 7 shows up if I'm on both 6 and 8.
The part I'm not understanding is how this methodology is poor strategy when I'm just trying to leverage odds as much as possible on either side of the fence depending on what the point is. If you bet one side or the other, the constant mix of missed and made points kills you at a rate directly proportional to the mix of made or missed points. If you prevent any loss from 2, 3, 7, 11 on the Come Out roll, doesn't this help you overall to have more of your session bankroll involved where the real action is: out on the cash register?
Quote: 4andaKickerOk, I understand that 1 in 36 Come Out rolls will cost money if you bet both sides.But playing right or wrong way only loses on the Come Out much more often than that. My idea was that looking past the trivial base pass or don't pass bets, I'm able to put maximum odds in the most favorable way on any given point. If it's a 4,5, 9, or 10, I pile on the dark side odds. If it's a 6 or 8 I keep throwing Come Bets out and all the odds I can for both numbers if/when I have them covered.
No. No. NO! ODDS BETS CARRY NO HOUSE EDGE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "FAVORABLE" ODDS BET. Every odds bet is created equal: in the long run, you will not win or lose any money. As a corollary, every other bet on the layout carries a house edge. No matter when or how you make it, you will lose money in the long run. If you don't understand this, there is no point in continuing.
Quote:I don't like the Place bet option so much because of a pattern I see alot that goes like this:
Come Out roll is a 6 yippee I put 5X odds on my pass line bet
Seven Out adios muchachos
If I had placed the 8 that's just so much more that get's flushed in a heartbeat.
But...if I make a Come bet, that combined with my Don't Pass defrays some of that damage and I never take the hit for the instaseven rollers.
Now, the worst case I see is they roll 8 on the second roll and of course I take max odds on that and throw out another Come bet.
The Seven Out now is quite costly, but I am more likely to get at least one payout before the 7 shows up if I'm on both 6 and 8.
The human brain loves to find patterns. The fact of the matter is that craps is random, and every bet carries a house edge (the house edge for odds bets is 0%). The house edge on placing the 6 and 8 is 1.52% of whatever your place wager is. The house edge on a Pass or Come bet is 1.41%, so really your strategy is better than placing a bunch of numbers.
Quote:The part I'm not understanding is how this methodology is poor strategy when I'm just trying to leverage odds as much as possible on either side of the fence depending on what the point is. If you bet one side or the other, the constant mix of missed and made points kills you at a rate directly proportional to the mix of made or missed points. If you prevent any loss from 2, 3, 7, 11 on the Come Out roll, doesn't this help you overall to have more of your session bankroll involved where the real action is: out on the cash register?
You are preventing most, not any, loss on those come-out numbers (you lose on the 12), but you are also preventing any win. So your system is reducing variance on the come-out roll, but unfortunately you have made it impossible to profit by any amount on that roll.
Your methodology is not a poor strategy - in fact making pass/come or don't pass/don't come bets and adding odds is the best way to play craps. You are just doing it in a more peculiar way than most people - you like to play them both at the same time. It's confusing, but really don't let anyone tell you it is "stupid." Especially those throwing money all over the hard ways, prop bets, and even place bets. Your bets are carrying a lower house edge. You seem to enjoy it so keep on trucking!
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: 4andaKickerOk, I understand that 1 in 36 Come Out rolls will cost money if you bet both sides.But playing right or wrong way only loses on the Come Out much more often than that. My idea was that looking past the trivial base pass or don't pass bets, I'm able to put maximum odds in the most favorable way on any given point. If it's a 4,5, 9, or 10, I pile on the dark side odds. If it's a 6 or 8 I keep throwing Come Bets out and all the odds I can for both numbers if/when I have them covered.
No. No. NO! ODDS BETS CARRY NO HOUSE EDGE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "FAVORABLE" ODDS BET. Every odds bet is created equal: in the long run, you will not win or lose any money. As a corollary, every other bet on the layout carries a house edge. No matter when or how you make it, you will lose money in the long run. If you don't understand this, there is no point in continuing.
I don't think I expressed that very well. What I mean to say is isn't it more favorable for me to be able to choose to either take or lay odds depending on the point? I don't want to lay odds against a 6 or 8. Since those are the most likely points to be made, isn't it better to be able to take odds in that case? Neither do I want to take odds for the 4 or 10. I understand odds carry no house edge, but isn't it a better choice to bet against the most unlikely numbers and for the most likely ones?Quote:Your methodology is not a poor strategy - in fact making pass/come or don't pass/don't come bets and adding odds is the best way to play craps. You are just doing it in a more peculiar way than most people - you like to play them both at the same time. It's confusing, but really don't let anyone tell you it is "stupid." Especially those throwing money all over the hard ways, prop bets, and even place bets. Your bets are carrying a lower house edge. You seem to enjoy it so keep on trucking!
I've given some thought to your response and I think I will try playing the Don't Pass only, and lay odds when the point is other than 6 or 8. Then I will make Come bets and take odds when I get on the 6 and/or 8 so I can get in on those tween rolls of repetitive 6s and 8s that come up before the Seven Out trying to make a 4. Of course it's all random, I know, but I like being able to cash in some of the time with the rolls that come between point established and point made or Seven Out.
Quote: 4andaKickerQuote: AcesAndEightsQuote: 4andaKickerOk, I understand that 1 in 36 Come Out rolls will cost money if you bet both sides.But playing right or wrong way only loses on the Come Out much more often than that. My idea was that looking past the trivial base pass or don't pass bets, I'm able to put maximum odds in the most favorable way on any given point. If it's a 4,5, 9, or 10, I pile on the dark side odds. If it's a 6 or 8 I keep throwing Come Bets out and all the odds I can for both numbers if/when I have them covered.
No. No. NO! ODDS BETS CARRY NO HOUSE EDGE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "FAVORABLE" ODDS BET. Every odds bet is created equal: in the long run, you will not win or lose any money. As a corollary, every other bet on the layout carries a house edge. No matter when or how you make it, you will lose money in the long run. If you don't understand this, there is no point in continuing.
I don't think I expressed that very well. What I mean to say is isn't it more favorable for me to be able to choose to either take or lay odds depending on the point? I don't want to lay odds against a 6 or 8. Since those are the most likely points to be made, isn't it better to be able to take odds in that case? Neither do I want to take odds for the 4 or 10. I understand odds carry no house edge, but isn't it a better choice to bet against the most unlikely numbers and for the most likely ones?
I initially was going to repeat "NO!" here, but "better choice" is a subjective term. "More favorable" is less subjective though, and I still think you are in the wrong mindset here. You don't want to lay odds against a 6 or 8 - sure, they are the most likely points to be made, but they are still less likely to be made than a 7 out. Because they are relatively easy to make, the lay odds pay better - 5:6. You don't want to take odds on the 4 or 10, because it's hard. Sure it's hard! That's why you get paid 2:1 when it hits! That's why you only get paid half - 1:2 - when you lay odds and the seven comes first! The truth is mathematically it doesn't matter where you lay or take odds. When you take odds on the 6 and the 8, yes those odds bets will win more frequently than taking odds on the 5/9/4/10. But they are paid less. When you lay odds on the 5/9/4/10, yes those lay odds bets will win more frequently than laying odds against a 6 or 8, but they pay less.
Quote:I've given some thought to your response and I think I will try playing the Don't Pass only, and lay odds when the point is other than 6 or 8. Then I will make Come bets and take odds when I get on the 6 and/or 8 so I can get in on those tween rolls of repetitive 6s and 8s that come up before the Seven Out trying to make a 4. Of course it's all random, I know, but I like being able to cash in some of the time with the rolls that come between point established and point made or Seven Out.
That's fine - like I said feel free to do whatever you want. Personally I like to just stick to one or the other for a given session, or failing that, at least a given shooter. Either root for the table and be enthusiastic, or root against it and be the mysterious stranger. That's how I like it, but my opinion doesn't make it "right." Like I said before, your method is not a half bad one. It sure beats the hell out of any method that includes heavy field bets, or hedging with the C/E and Any 7 bets. You're doing good just by staying away from those.
