blount2000
blount2000
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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December 5th, 2012 at 5:15:22 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey


This actually gets to the heart of the matter. My education was in public relations and marketing and I've got to tell you, your reaction is expected. It's calculated in and taken into account. Then the promotion proceeds if it seems it will be profitable. You, apparently, are not the target demographic of the promotions. That's why no one at the casino cares that you're upset. I don't want to give a big marketing lecture that no one will actually read but this is actually a very simple matter. Marketing is designed to appeal to a narrow demographic, it has to be unless the product being sold is a commodity, then it's sold on price, not the story. Casinos are all about the story. Walmart is where you buy goods sold as a commodity. No one walks around all day with a bag from walmart to show their exclusive taste, but they will drag that Starbucks cup around all day, refilling it with whatever is handy, just so you'll know they go to Starbucks. That's telling a story about who you are and what great taste you have. Casinos likewise sell a story.



I found this passage to be quite interesting.

Thanks.
You serious, Clark?
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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December 5th, 2012 at 5:44:11 AM permalink
I'm in the mood for a summary-----

Ahigh believes that match play/ free play coupons are misleading. He is upset that a casino would stoop to do such a thing.
My take- I agree they are misleading, but I am not upset a casino would do such a thing. It only took ONE time for me to use one and figure out what they were worth. I look at it as any business that wants to lure you in..... the tire store selling you tires for $50 each, but then you find out you need valves for an extra $8 each, the airline that charges you for luggage, I am not making this next one up---- the restaurant that charged a dime for the paper cup for tap water...

Ahigh believes that the casino should let him use multiple food coupons for him and his friends.....
My take- I would have asked first, and would have expected the answer to be "No sir, each member would need a coupon in his own name, you cannot use 4 coupons in your own name simultaneously."

Personally, I am quite happy when I receive any free, or 2 for 1, type offers from the casinos I frequent. I think Ahigh is in the extreme minority with his free stuff expectations. If there were more people who felt as Ahigh does, the casinos wouldn't do it!
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
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December 5th, 2012 at 7:41:35 AM permalink
I think if I gave ahigh a horse, he would insist on looking in it's mouth.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ahigh
Ahigh
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December 5th, 2012 at 7:46:21 AM permalink
Don't be confused! I dont _expect_ anything less than what they already do. I absolutely know how to cope with it.

The thing that I'm doing is associating the behavior with the term "loser."

The misleading approach is something that I associate with a lesser casino. Possibly a casino with a demographic of customer who would fall for such things.

The same visitors who came to visit me were actually TALKING about the disappointment of the free slot play at Casino Royale and what a bunch of crap it was. That is a very ironic part to this story.

I have never even BOTHERED to play the free slots there because I don't play slots.

But the point that I am trying to make is that there are still people who don't already have opinions that go through this for the first time.

If those people walked away with a better impression of Las Vegas as a sort of straightforward city where a bet is a bet is a bet, and when you get a free one, it's as much like a real as possible, I think the city would be better off.

That is the whole point that I am making here.

And when a casino pulls a "trick" to get you into a position where you can think something that's not true so that you would do something that you otherwise wouldn't do because you are believing something that is false only to take advantage of your state of mind believing falsehoods, that's where I feel like putting my foot down and saying, "I think the business that do this stuff are not benefitting anyone at all in the long run."

I'll go back to the compressed megabytes example that tape drives for computers did for a while.

Is there ANYONE here who thinks that SSD's on computers should be rated in COMPRESSED megabytes? Sure you could divide by two and memorize what compression standard each company uses to figure out what the REAL storage capacity is, but if they all wanted to trick you to think they had more on-off states internally in hardware, is that something that you think is acceptible?

But also please don't misunderstand that I think promotional coupons are a bad thing. I just think they way that they are MARKETED is a bad thing. I think it's bad for the economy of the City and it's bad for repeat business. I think it creates less than ideal entertainment value learning that you believed something that wasn't true and fell victim to a marketing scheme.

I agree that it's everywhere, and I think that it's equally bad everywhere it is. The "resort fee." Even the fact that they choose to label the hidden cost as a "resort fee" is sort of bull crap.

Any place that was up front and honest would include that cost, if it's not optional, in all of the advertised costs. Now all advertising is in the position to say "no resort fee" or to have a resort fee. It simply lengthens the time it takes for someone to get a fair deal among casinos that effectively are hiding the true cost of staying at that casino.

The only thing that even makes this legal is that there isn't currently a law that penalizes businesses who intentionally mislead their customers in order to promote things. IE: it's not against the law to trick people into doing something by misleading them.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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December 5th, 2012 at 8:30:47 AM permalink
Very few people, A-high, take the time to look at a free play coupon to derive its value.

Marketing works in funny ways. For example, I prefer Caesar's over MGM, and I might be very much in the minority in this forum. Why do I prefer Caesar's? Because of the way they give away their rooms. For flea-level gamblers, Caesar's discounts on their rooms as a result of your fairly limited play is second to none. MGM's player's cards might be better for value and you may (well definitely) will end up with more $ cash play and different offers, but the room rate that Caesar's offers is the value for me, and that's how they differentiate their Total Rewards system from others. That's marketing.

For example, I have a free stay at Caesar's this weekend which was generated based on play over three days at Casino Windsor early this summer. For that three day stay, they are probably expecting me to feed about $25,000 of coin through VP machines and about $10,000 of table play (to be honest, I lost about $1,200 over those three days) over the weekend I'm there. The problem is that my gambling budget for the weekend is very limited, at $500. The purpose of the trip is to take my 15 year old daughter to see Shania Twain and to buy some Christmas presents.

And marketing will work to the majority of its audience in order to maximize revenue. This is where the sleaze factor comes in. If the marketing department gave away freebies without worrying about its return, then there would be no marketing department, so the marketing department has to come up with ways to entice customers while maximizing ROI. For CR's sleazy deal, the gigantic sign for $50 of "free play" works and yeah, alot of people probably feel ripped off by the promotion, but CR knows that most of its customers are walk-bys and not loyal to their brand, so they go with the quick hit.

Absolutely, marketing will attempt to figure out your demographic and market to you to squeeze every last penny out of you. The problem is that the casino only knows you from what you play patterns and attempts to make a guess on what you like based on your play. The larger the property, the more marketing people they will have and the more sophisticated their marketing programs will become.

An independent casino like the Silverton likely has a very limited marketing department (maybe only a few people) and likely uses some kind of generic player tracking software to try to manufacture its comp program to its guests. They will be limited to their responses and don't have the time to market a $12 coupon for cash directly to you for your play because you're one of the very few that care about the expected value of a coupon. In the meantime, food and beverage probably screamed at marketing in one of their departmental meetings about the wording of their coupons because they were being killed by people transferring their coupons to other guests or trying to use 5 coupons in a sitting. Hence the sign, until marketing prints the message on the coupon -- non transferrable, one coupon per visit, etc.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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December 5th, 2012 at 10:49:08 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've seen promos that said something like: "Sign up for a player's card, and your first $1000 loss is on us!". What they mean is, if you lose $1000, they will give you $1000 in "free bet" chips, which, as discussed here, have a value of about $500 (maybe a little more if you are wise in how you bet them, probably a little less for most people)


The recent Rivera promotion was $1000 in slot free play, somewhat restricted but not to special "promo" machines so it was in fact close to $1000, or maybe $900 (I don't remember how severe the restrictions were).

Also, some casinos actually give out "non-neg" chips/coupons, that don't go away when you win. These are close to face value and twice as valuable as "free bet" chips.

Not sure why I felt like chiming in that one...but yeah. Wizard's page on promo chips/coupons/etc.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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December 5th, 2012 at 6:09:31 PM permalink
Quote: SACR


If I understand you correctly, you're saying the casinos are saying it is a 'free bet', and then only paying the value of the bet, i.e. if you make a $10 'free bet' with the coupon, all you are receiving is $10 when you win, so the coupon is essentially worth $5. I don't know of a casino that handles their free bet or match play coupons this way.

And I have been in casinos where they have allowed me to take a food credit comp and use it to pay for someone else in my party. It sounds like you're in a place that is operating as a grind joint.



This is how my free play at Beau Rivage (MGM) works. I had $120 in Free Play for the second 1/2 of November. When I went to the cage, they gave me 5, $25 promotional chips. They are much bigger than normal chips. I can bet them on any even money bet, like the pass line. If the bet wins, they take the promotional chip, and replace it with a real $25 chip. The nice thing with craps is I can still make a $250 odds bet behind the promotional chip, essentially giving me a completely free $250 odds bet.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
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December 5th, 2012 at 7:06:52 PM permalink
At Imperial Palace in Vegas this past October, the guy next to me on the Craps table had a $25 FREE PLAY Coupon which he put on the Pass Line, the beauty about the coupon is there is no $$$ match required and the coupon stays on the felt and keeps getting paid until it loses. The guy got paid at least 8 seperate times (Come out 7's/11's, Pass Line Winners) with the same free coupon before someone finally 7'ed out with a Point established. That's $200 profit without taking a penny out of your pocket.

Now that's a coupon worth playing!
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
Ahigh
Ahigh
Joined: May 19, 2010
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December 5th, 2012 at 8:17:39 PM permalink
Thanks you guys for sharing stories about how and why some people can come to expect a more optimistic value for free coupons.

Those who have only used free coupons in Las Vegas might even find your stories hard to believe because the norm here in Vegas is so biased towards inflating the initial perceived value intended to be projected by what is printed on the coupon until the recipient looks at all the rules, restrictions, and various "gotchas."
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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December 6th, 2012 at 4:57:40 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Thanks you guys for sharing stories about how and why some people can come to expect a more optimistic value for free coupons.

Those who have only used free coupons in Las Vegas might even find your stories hard to believe because the norm here in Vegas is so biased towards inflating the initial perceived value intended to be projected by what is printed on the coupon until the recipient looks at all the rules, restrictions, and various "gotchas."



To be fair though, that is the story behind many coupons, from all sorts of industries. You need look no further than the REBATE industry. It has gotten so bad, I no longer base a purchase off a price that has a rebate attached to it, unless it is instant. I have had rebates denied for a dozen arcane reasons, and have had to fight for months to get paid the $25. My time is way more valuable to me than that, but I wasn't going to let them get away with stiffing me.

Reading the fine print, looking for the gotcha, figuring out the hook, is all part of the freebie game. Think Time Share offers, which I have used years ago to get free stays in Vegas.

Come to think of it, Polynesian Village with Tanya Roberts, has not popped up on my radar in a few years. Is that still going?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

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