Reading BJ hands?

The second time I met the Wizard this trip, we went to the D to say hello to NicksGamingStuff (and not much else, as I'm a low-talker and the casino is loud). The Wizard played BJ, following Nick from table to table. I watched and participated in the conversation as I could.

What impressed me was how fast the Wizard played. Hardly had his cards hit the table when he was already making the hand signals for hit, split, stand, etc. I couldn't keep up. At one point Nick dealt himself seven or eight cards and still didn't bust. The Wizard asked if I had ever seen something like that, but I was still trying to add up the the cards to get a points total.

So I got to thinking, do proficient BJ players read their hands the way most people read words?

When you come across a word, you don't sound every letter in order and figure out the sound of the word. You just read it. This is so even of words you're not familiar with, but it fails sometimes with complex, long words. So my notion is that if a BJ player sees 5 9, he doesn't think "five plus nine equals fourteen," but rather sees the 5 9 and reads it as 14.

I can read VP hands sometimes like that. I see the pair or the ace, or the deuce and I know what to hold without even thinking about it. Not every time, but most of the time, say 75% of all dealt hands. But then I have practiced VP extensively. In fact, at Pai Gow Poker I tend to slow down because I see the cards one at a time rather than all at once.

Am I on to something?

Quote: Nareed

So I got to thinking, do proficient BJ players read their hands the way most people read words?

I would say yes.

The best game to experience this effect, in my opinion, is pai gow tiles. When you first start out, first you have to identify the tiles. Then you have to look at each 2-tile combination. Then you have to look at the 3 ways to play. Finally, you have to determine the best play.

Eventually you reach the point where you can look at the four tiles all at once as an atomic unit and immediately know the best play - much like what you describe with video poker.

Yes you are Nareed.

I am not near to expert status in BJ, like the Wiz. In fact, I prefer playing alone against the dealer so that I may feel no time pressure when making my playing decisions. But it is true that one becomes automatic when playing the game... Almost like driving a car. I have felt this way many times when playing, especially at a busy table. The cards become 'one with the player' rather easily in this game.

Yes, it's absolutely true that you read hands much faster after a lot of play.

One time, down at Isle of Capri in MS, I was playing Double-deck BJ. They play the game out of a shoe. Anyways, I had two splits against a dealer small card, I got a 19 and a 20, both of them double downs. The dealer turns her hand over and proceeds to hit. The last card she draws is a 5, which she believes to be a 21. At first, I agreed, but after looking at the hand, it didn't feel right. Sure enough, she made a hard 17, thought she had 16 and took the hit. My hand went from a 4x loss to an 8x win!

Anyways, looking at the hand after the fact, I felt the hand was wrong, and I was right.

How about that...

Thanks for all the replies.

Now, would you say the ability to read BJ hands requires some innate skill at math, or is it more akin to reading dice, for instance. I don't count and add up dice pips at the craps table.

Quote: Nareed

How about that...

Thanks for all the replies.

Now, would you say the ability to read BJ hands requires some innate skill at math, or is it more akin to reading dice, for instance. I don't count and add up dice pips at the craps table.

No math skill required. For me it works like this, dealer shows 10 i got 9-5. I dont need to know 9+5 = 14 I only need to know 9-5 vs. 10 = hit I dont add it.

Sometimes for fun I go to a local place where there is an extremely quick dealer. When its just him and I we frequently get through a six deck shoe before the shuffel machine is done. and we usually have to wait 30-40 seconds for it to get done. flat betting of course

I love the fast dealers. As much as people complain about them they keep the game moving, are very smooth with the cards, and from my experience are more prone to making mistakes. I think that this is to the player's benefit as you can correct mistakes against you but can choose to correct or not correct mistakes in your favor (a separate issue, don't mean to hijack the thread). Of course avoid these dealers if you are trying to milk comps as the house edge will compound many more times in the same period of time due to more hands per hour. If playing for low stakes I say the faster the better.

With regard to the original question, I think that experienced knowledgeable players could go a million miles an hour if necessary. As long as they aren't slowing down the game too much the casinos love the guys who are sitting there thinking about whether or not to hit their 12 v. 3 and 15 v. 10 as these people will inevitably make -EV plays frequently. If one truly knows perfect basic strategy there should be no thinking at the blackjack table, the hand signal should simply be a reflex. This may become slightly more complicated if switching between H17/S17 games or 6 deck and double deck games with different rules during the same session, but otherwise I would find this to be true. Since to me blackjack is simply a game of reflexes, I occasionally enjoy playing Midi-Baccarat where I can choose Player or Banker as there is no choice in how I play a blackjack hand (yes, I know Player is -EV compared to Banker, once in a while even I decide to take a gamble).

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I think some of it is that the Wiz is also a math guy. If you are good at math you don't need to solve simple equations the you just see the answer. Most people can do it on some level. Look at craps, how many players are going 3 + 4 = 7 or just say f**k.

Quote: Nareed

When you come across a word, you don't sound every letter in order and figure out the sound of the word. You just read it. This is so even of words you're not familiar with, but it fails sometimes with complex, long words. So my notion is that if a BJ player sees 5 9, he doesn't think "five plus nine equals fourteen," but rather sees the 5 9 and reads it as 14.

In computer's CPUs, to gain speed, the arithmetic operations do not bother registraters that perform additions / subtractions/multiplications / divisions. The results are obtained from a look-up table. When "5 9" comes in, the look-up table matches "5 9" to 14, then processor returns with 14. No math.

I'd say yes...though I don't think it has as much to do with math skills (though that may help)..as practice. Card counting for example gets muuuuccccchhhh easier the more you do it. You don't need to see a hand composed of a 4 and a 10 and think +1, -1...you just zero them out. It becomes almost automatic. Like driving a car or riding a bike. You are doing a complex task but not actively "thinking" about it, you just do it.